noob needs advice on [quieting] a i7 build in Lian Li case

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samfromaus
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noob needs advice on [quieting] a i7 build in Lian Li case

Post by samfromaus » Mon Apr 12, 2010 8:32 pm

Hi everyone

this is my second post here. I'm by no means new to computers but quite new to the world of silent computing.

Recently I have put together a htpc/gaming rig in a Lian Li pc-A17 box.

After spending a bit of time researching on this website I went with a Seasonic X-series 750 psu. I also went with a NH-C12P SE14 heat-sink (no sure if it was the best option but anyway..

Being a gaming box it has a 4850 gpu, (I'm well aware that this will make noise so Im not concerned about getting it silent just quite).

After putting it all together I'm not convinced its a quite as it can be, now the PC is in my lounge connected to a Bravia TV that has a very loud fan, there is also plenty of background noise (fridge, dogs etc etc). The room is air conditioned and I run it most days in the warmer months.

Initially, I would like to replace the case fans. The case has 2 120mm fans (I think 1500rpm - 1 exhaust and 1 intake) and 1 140mm exhaust fan on the top of the case (1200rpm I think).

I was thinking of getting 3 Noctua NF-P14 FLX 140mm fans but after looking at this website I don't think that would be good idea.

I am wondering now if I even need the 140mm fan, I recall there was an article regarding side and top case fans somewhere on here. I am thinking of getting the Noctua NF-P14 FLX and just using the ulna so it hopefully spins quite slow.

The also have the Scythe Kaze Maru 140mm 500rpm Case Fan. Could this be a better option?

For the 120mm fans I am leaning toward either a pair of Noctua NF-P12 FLX or Nexus Real Silent. But after reading the 120mm fan round up. I am also wondering about the Scythe S-FLEX 120mm Fan 800rpm

These all seem to be quite good fans, perhaps 800rpm may be two slow?.

As I am in Australia I will probably be shopping at pccasegear.

Any advice is greatly appreciated.

ces
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Post by ces » Mon Apr 12, 2010 9:43 pm

Before going out and buying fans. Get something like this and experiment with downvolting the fans:
http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/ ... s_id=25981

The Lian Li fans probably aren't going to be all that bad. See what happens if you slow them down a few volts.

eddieck
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Post by eddieck » Mon Apr 12, 2010 9:55 pm

These will also work if you want a cable rather than a PCI slot solution. I use them and they seem to work. 5V, 7V, and 12V.

theycallmebruce
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Post by theycallmebruce » Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:02 am

Hey there.

So I see you found PC Case Gear!

I don't think you specified your CPU, and I'm guessing the TDP is a little higher than mine, but otherwise your system sounds fairly similar to mine (see my sig at the bottom).

I would tend to agree on not using the 140mm top fan at all. Try blocking up the vent completely and seeing if it improves temperatures (it did in my case).

Either the Scythes or Nexus 120mm fans should be alright. I've only used the Scythes myself, but the Nexus were cheaper on PC case gear last time I looked and come recommended on spcr.

My rig has two 120mm Scythe S-Flex 1500RPM fans, one blowing straight through the CPU cooler, and one rear exhaust fan. I have them both connected to the motherboard's CPU fan header by a splitter. This throttles them right down to 500RPM, which is very quiet, unless I do something that maxes out the CPU (which is rare). The hard disk drive is noticeably louder than the fans at 500RPM. This setup keeps my system happy and cool under all loads.

Good luck and let us know what you find.

ntavlas
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Post by ntavlas » Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:08 am

Agreed. If the fans have a molex plug you don`t even need a fan controller to reduce their speed: you can cut the chamfered corners of the molex plug, then fit it the "wrong" way. This way the fans will get 5 volts instead of 12. I have found out that Lian Li stock fans don`t drop their speed too much at 5 volts, instead they run at a quite usable 800rpm.

lodestar
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Post by lodestar » Tue Apr 13, 2010 2:59 am

If you are using the NH-C12P SE heatsink on an i7 then your main priority should be keeping the CPU cool and quiet. I know Noctua ship a 140mm fixed speed fan (effectively a 140mm size fan in a 120mm body) with the CPU, but you should still consider changing it for for say this http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?mai ... s_id=11491. Set up your BIOS so that PWM control is enabled, and the Nexus will give you a 500-2000 rpm range automatically based on how hot the CPU is. That will take into account load, so it should be very quiet at idle and also ambient temperature. When gaming the CPU temperature will rise, and so will the PWM fan speed along with it.

If you go this route you could then deploy the Noctua from the CPU cooler as the rear exhaust fan replacing the existing 120mm. You should have received both the Noctua Low-Noise Adaptor (L.N.A.) and Ultra-Low-Noise Adaptor (U.L.N.A.) with the CPU cooler. Use the U.L.N.A. with the Noctua 140mm fan in its new exhaust role. That leaves a L.N.A. over, which you could try on the existing 140mm exhaust, and see what the difference is.

For your 120mm intake you could try one of these http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?mai ... ts_id=2800 to drop the speed and noise to a lower level. With a decent exhaust setup I think the only need for intake fans should be to actively cool hard drives., and I don't thinking turning the intake down will have too much of an impact on overall cooling.

samfromaus
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Post by samfromaus » Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:51 am

Hi all

Thanks for all the excellent advice. I have no knowledge of undervolting fans but the zalman fan mate looks interesting and well priced. Im guessing it allows for different settings, perhaps volts??

Lodestar thanks for your post. I have only really used the bios to measure temps but i have never seen my cpu go above 37 degrees. The heatsink has the 140mm fan and i use the lna on it. I would have thought my cpu temp was ok??

Bruce my cpu is an i7 920 running at stock.

Thanks again

Sam

JamieG
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Post by JamieG » Tue Apr 13, 2010 3:31 pm

For the 140mm fan, you may also want to consider the Yate Loon D14SL-12 (1,000rpm) fan from Gammods at $11.50.

The Zalman fan mate has a little knob that allows you to set the voltage range from 5V to 11V from memory.

theycallmebruce
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Post by theycallmebruce » Tue Apr 13, 2010 7:23 pm

Yes, it's 5-11V according to the spec: http://www.zalman.co.kr/ENG/product/Pro ... sp?idx=206

I apologise if I'm repeating things you already know here, but these are the important things that I didn't know about before reading spcr:

1) Most motherboards already have a capability for undervolting fans automatically based on CPU/motherboard temperature. I prefer using this to control the fan speed, rather than manually setting fixed voltages.

This way, if the temperatures start getting too high, it will be taken care of automatically, and you will know about it (you'll hear it). If your rig is set up correctly, the fans will never throttle above minimum speed. If your fans are spinning up all the time, it means you need to change your configuration in some way (ventilation, fans, heatsinks etc).

2) Manually undervolting your CPU (supported by many motherboards) can significantly reduce power consumption at full CPU load. This in turn means lower temps, and lower fan speeds. There are several threads on finding a stable undervolt.

Although your CPU/motherboard almost certainly supports automatic power management which downclocks/undervolts/disables portions of the CPU automatically when idle, when you are maxing it out (eg running current FPS games), it will be clocking/volting it to maximum.

In my rig undervolting was the difference between overheating with extended 100% CPU load and being able to stay cool enough by ramping up the fans a bit.

outbackyak
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Re: noob needs advice on quitening a i7 build in Lian Li cas

Post by outbackyak » Tue Apr 13, 2010 11:52 pm

samfromaus wrote:As I am in Australia I will probably be shopping at pccasegear.
You may know this already, but Static Ice is a great Australian computer component search engine. It's not perfect, as it doesn't cover every dealer, but you may find what you are looking for cheaper than at PC Case Gear.

Cheers!

samfromaus
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Post by samfromaus » Wed Apr 14, 2010 8:36 pm

Hi All, thanks for all the great advice.

outbackyak - I have been using staticice for quite some time now, but cheers for the thought and link.

bruce - I am quite interested in your setup but I am a bit confused. If I am understanding this correctly your cpu fan and rear exhaust run though the cpu fan header? What causes them to run a lower rpm, is it the splitter or a MB control? Are your fans variable RPM?

I had a little look through my BIOS I have some fan control settings and a setting for PWM.

I really do need to do some more research as I can see this is more of a learning curve then I first thought, I did kind of think it would be a matter of swapping case fans!

I need to spend some time reading my MB manual over again (my board is a gigabyte x58A-UR3R). As far as I know all my fans are fixed RMP (lian li case, noctua cpu) can they still be throttled down OK?

Many thanks

Sam

ces
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Post by ces » Wed Apr 14, 2010 8:44 pm

samfromaus wrote: As far as I know all my fans are fixed RMP (lian li case, noctua cpu) can they still be throttled down OK?
Yes
ces wrote:Before going out and buying fans. Get something like this and experiment with downvolting the fans:
http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/ ... s_id=25981

The Lian Li fans probably aren't going to be all that bad. See what happens if you slow them down a few volts.

theycallmebruce
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Post by theycallmebruce » Thu Apr 15, 2010 10:17 pm

If I am understanding this correctly your cpu fan and rear exhaust run though the cpu fan header?
Correct.
What causes them to run a lower rpm, is it the splitter or a MB control?
The motherboard control lowers the voltage automatically based on temperature. On your board this should be enabled by default. The BIOS option is called "CPU Smart Fan Control". Leave the "CPU Smart Fan mode" on auto.

The splitter just allows two fans to be connected to one header. It looks like this:
http://www.directron.com/y3pin.html
I think I bought it from ebay or a Hong Kong website for $3 or so.
Are your fans variable RPM?
The RPM of a 3-pin fan is controlled by the voltage supplied to it. The RPM quoted by the manufacturer is the speed at 12V. For my Scythe S-Flex 1500 RPM fans, the motherboard ramps the voltage down to a level where they spin at about 500RPM.

More info here on the Noctua FAQ for your fan:
http://www.noctua.at/main.php?show=faqs ... =33&lng=en

samfromaus
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Post by samfromaus » Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:33 pm

Hi all,

I have been thinking about a different options I have here.

I am thinking initially perhaps I will purchase two Zalman fan controllers and use them to take the font intake and rear exhaust fans down to 8v and see what happens.

Following on from the suggestion from loadestar I was thinking of seeing what happens if I attach the U.L.N.A from the Noctua fan to the existing 140mm Lian Li fan. I did a search to see if I could find anyone that as attempted this but no luck.

If I understand this correctly the U.L.N.A simply lowers the voltage the fan recieves, so the worst that could happen is the fan won't receive enough volts to start and simply won't spin?

One last question (I did search this and I apologize if it has been asked) I have noticed the fan on my CPU cooler doesn't not spin straight away instead it takes a second or two to spin up. I'm guessing this is because I am using the L.N.A. and combined with the motherboard fan controller it isn't receiving enough volts initially, until the CPU heats up enough?

In any case is it dangerous for the CPU? I have an alarm set to sound when the CPU reaches 65 or 70 degrees and I haven't seen my temps get higher then 40.

Many thanks

Sam

ces
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Post by ces » Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:41 pm

samfromaus wrote:Following on from the suggestion from loadestar I was thinking of seeing what happens if I attach the U.L.N.A from the Noctua fan to the existing 140mm Lian Li fan. I did a search to see if I could find anyone that as attempted this but no luck.

If I understand this correctly the U.L.N.A simply lowers the voltage the fan recieves, so the worst that could happen is the fan won't receive enough volts to start and simply won't spin?
That is unlikely to be a problem. The ULNA drops the voltage to 7 volts. Most fans can start with 7 volts.

samfromaus
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Post by samfromaus » Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:34 pm

thanks for all your help CES

lodestar
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Post by lodestar » Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:56 pm

samfromaus wrote:One last question (I did search this and I apologize if it has been asked) I have noticed the fan on my CPU cooler doesn't not spin straight away instead it takes a second or two to spin up. I'm guessing this is because I am using the L.N.A. and combined with the motherboard fan controller it isn't receiving enough volts initially, until the CPU heats up enough?
Yes, you're right it is not correct to use the Noctua L.N.A. or U.L.N.A. adapters and CPU Smart Fan Control at the same time, so set it to disabled in the BIOS. This is a fairly common issue with the Noctua coolers and you're lucky it was starting - there have been cases where the fan did not start at all.

But I would not recommend the use of the Noctua adapters on the CPU cooler for a Core i7 system. In my experience the difference in CPU temperature between idle and gaming stress is too wide to be dealt with by a fixed speed fan. I like the Noctua coolers, partly because of the SecuFirm mounting but so far every one I have bought has had the supplied fan replaced with a PWM model, and that includes a Core i7 system.

ntavlas
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Post by ntavlas » Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:09 am

Ok, lets review your options. You could use either a fanmate or the molex trick (or ULNA) to run the front and top fans at 5 volts. Ideally, you would have both the cpu and exhaust fan controlled by the motherboard.

Using the cpu fan header should be pretty straight forward as long as it supports non pwm fans which it should. Usually there is at least another variable sped header for a case fan. The rear exhaust could go in there.

However, some people prefer to plug the exhaust on the cpu fan header as well, using a Y splitter. This is because case fan headers vary their voltage based on an arbitary "system" temperature which does not always correspond to the real stress put on your main components. The top 14cm fan might be a good candidate to plug into the case fan header though.

Another thing that occured to me is that the top fan is not very useful as an exhaust because of it`s location. It might be more useful as an intake cooling your memory and also pushing some cool air in front of the cpu cooler.

samfromaus
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Post by samfromaus » Mon Apr 26, 2010 8:18 pm

lodestar wrote: Use the U.L.N.A. with the Noctua 140mm fan in its new exhaust role. That leaves a L.N.A. over, which you could try on the existing 140mm exhaust, and see what the difference is.
Hi Lodestar,

have you used these adapters with Lian Li fans, specifically the U.L.N.A? I have found some info about people using them on non Noctua fans, they mention not using them with fans that use over a certain amount of current. This is where I get quite confused!

My 140mm case fan uses 0.24A (Max) do you think this will be OK?

I also noticed rear 120mm case fan is spinning at <1000rpm even though the fan is rated at 1500rpm. My understanding was only the CPU fan header throttled speed. Is this normal?

cheers

Sam

lodestar
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Post by lodestar » Mon Apr 26, 2010 10:18 pm

The Noctua U.L.N.A. is a resistor cable, and like any resistor cable there is no problem with using it with any fan provided the current draw is not too high. Your Lian-Li fan will be fine. There have been issues with the U.L.N.A. but as far as I know only where it is plugged into some Gigabyte CPU fan headers. If your exhaust fan is plugged into the motherboard then it may be being controlled, try running it directly from the PSU and see if the speed changes.

samfromaus
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Post by samfromaus » Thu Apr 29, 2010 4:40 pm

Hi all

I now have the ulna attached to my top 140mm and I hooked up a zalman fanmate to the front 120mm which is down from 1200 to 800 rpm. All my case fans now spin between 7 and 800 rpm. Case fan wise I don't think I can go much further now as my gpu fan seems to be louder then all of them at idol.

I'm thinking I will change the CPU fan just for good measure. I notice some people use PWM while others are just using voltage to control the fan. I have looked and looked for pros and cons of each. So far all I can find is PWM fans can have more motor noise. Are there others? Sorry I'm sure this has been discused before but I can't seem to find it.

One last thing I remember reading it's bad to coil up cords on battery charges as it can cause them to overheat. Does anyone think this would apply to a fanmate if I use a cable tie on it.

Thanks again

Sam

b_rubenstein
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Post by b_rubenstein » Thu Apr 29, 2010 5:18 pm

samfromaus wrote:Hi all

One last thing I remember reading it's bad to coil up cords on battery charges as it can cause them to overheat. Does anyone think this would apply to a fanmate if I use a cable tie on it.
No, fans don't draw enough current for the gauge wire used for a fanmate to heat the wires. I doubt that it bothers most battery chargers either.

outbackyak
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Post by outbackyak » Thu Apr 29, 2010 9:55 pm

samfromaus wrote:I'm thinking I will change the CPU fan just for good measure. I notice some people use PWM while others are just using voltage to control the fan. I have looked and looked for pros and cons of each. So far all I can find is PWM fans can have more motor noise. Are there others? Sorry I'm sure this has been discused before but I can't seem to find it.
The big (and obvious) pro for PWM fans is that they automatically speed up if CPU temperatures increase, so you don't have to think about it - it's all controlled by the MB. That's also the big con for PWM - you aren't in total control of the fan speed, and some people find the changing speed of the fan makes for more intrusive noise than a fan running at a fixed speed.

Either system works, it's just about working out what suits your needs best. I went for PWM with a 120mm Scythe Kama and I'm pretty happy with it. At idle or for DAW use the fan spins at around 550RPM and is essentially silent (i.e. it's masked by other system noise - and it's a pretty quiet system). If I'm gaming it will spin at around 950RPM which would be audible except that I run my case fans at full speed for gaming so again the PWM fan is masked by the other fans' noise.

The other con for PWM is that there is a vastly smaller range of makes and models to choose from, and they tend to be more expensive. If you want total control and ultimate quietness then a voltage controlled fan and a FanMate or another fan controller is probably your best bet.

Cheers!

lodestar
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Post by lodestar » Fri Apr 30, 2010 2:35 am

The voltage control/PWM control issue is probably only important to gamers but certainly if you have any multi-core CPU and are gaming then you should think twice before using voltage control. The main point is that multi-core CPUs have two sets of temperature sensors, and two different methods of controlling fans by temperature. Voltage control works off a generic CPU temperature sensor, PWM control works off the temperatures of each core of the CPU - specifically the temperature of the hottest core. The easiest way of seeing this is to download a copy of the free utility HWMonitor from here http://www.cpuid.com/hwmonitor.php. Incidentally, if you go into your BIOS and see a CPU temperature shown there it will be from the voltage control sensor. The voltage control sensor may be on the CPU, usually between the cores or sometimes in the CPU socket underneath the processor.

As HWMonitor shows, the generic CPU temperature is always less than the core temperatures typically by 4-5C and the cores often differ from each other as well. Under the increased load of gaming, and because of factors such as Turbo mode a multi-core CPU will increase in temperature very rapidly. Typically one or two cores will be much hotter than the rest, and the temperature of the hottest core may be 7-10C or more higher than what the generic CPU temperature is showing. The PWM fan will respond faster and will speed up more if core temperatures demand it, and when a CPU is under the stress of gaming this is exactly what you need.

In terms of controlling the speed of PWM fans, a utility like SpeedFan will do it if necessary. I tried it out on a CPU PWM fan with a top speed of 1350 rpm and dropped it down to 500 rpm under SpeedFan's software control. This was a fan incidentally with a spec of 600-1300 rpm. It is nice to have this flexibility as well as the automatic speed control if you need/want it. But I am not sure what value dropping CPU PWM fan speeds manually has in a gaming machine. The noisiest item at idle is likely to be the graphics card fan, and the sound from an idling PWM fan will be well below this. Equally under load any sound from the PWM fan will be of no consequence.

One final point on voltage control. Modern motherboards normally only have PWM circuitry to control PWM fans. When set to voltage control they do not actually supply a fixed voltage to the three pin fan but a series of low-frequency pulses. While this works in terms of controlling the speed of three pin fans it can also create, with some fans, a distinct ticking sound. There is no cure other than to change to a different model/make of fan, but equally a PWM fan ought to be considered.

JamieG
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Post by JamieG » Fri Apr 30, 2010 4:28 pm

As a more expensive alternative, consider the Scythe Kaze Server fan controller. I've installed one in my P182 and I really like its ability to control fan speeds in multiple types of ways based on temperature:

- manual mode: dial in a fixed fan speed manually, no temperature-based variation
- semi-auto mode: fan works at a user-defined rpm below a user-defined temperature and automatically rises to full speed once that temperature is exceeded
- auto mode: fan is off below a user defined temperature and turns on to a user-defined rpm once this temperature is exceeded

You can set each mode individually for the four fans controlled. I'm using semi-auto mode on all my fans currently, with two 10V inline speed reduction cables on two of my case fans so that the top speed using semi auto mode is only 10V, not the full 12V which is a little too loud (1,000rpm vs 1,200rpm).

You could probably use a Zalman Fanmate to dial in precisely what top speed at 'load' temperatures you want and then use the Kaze Server's semi auto mode to dial in what idle speed you want.

theycallmebruce
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Post by theycallmebruce » Mon May 03, 2010 6:04 pm

Lodestar, that's interesting about many motherboards using low frequency pulses even in voltage control mode. Maybe my understanding of PWM is incorrect (varying the duty cycle of a fixed frequency square wave), but what you describe sounds essentially like PWM to me, just using 3 pins instead of 4. Is that correct?

My understanding of electronics is very limited, but would it be possible to smooth out this style of fan control using an appropriately sized capacitor to prevent the annoying clicking when it occurs?

I'll have to get out an oscilloscope and probe my fan lines to see how my motherboard does it. I've done this before, and from my (not very reliable) memory it did analogue voltage control, but I want to check now!

ascl
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Post by ascl » Mon May 03, 2010 8:54 pm

Yes its exactly the same method of reducing the fan speed as PWM fans use... the difference is where it happens, either on the mobo or on the fan itself.

EDIT: The reason why its commonly used is you need somewhere to dump the heat generated if you are using a rheostat.

theycallmebruce
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Post by theycallmebruce » Mon May 03, 2010 9:11 pm

Thanks ascl. Yeah, I've read that PWM is more efficient because it is essentially just switching the line on and off.

Do you know whether the idea of putting a capacitor inline to smooth the voltage would work?

ascl
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Post by ascl » Mon May 03, 2010 9:14 pm

PWM control doesn't always produce ticking... from what I've read it depends on both the fan and the controller. None of my PWM based fan controls have cause noticeable ticking with my fans.

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