Memory madness

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David Cole
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Memory madness

Post by David Cole » Sat Aug 27, 2011 10:57 am

I have built a new pc which is fine except that I cannot get it to work with 16Gbs of ram. I'm desperate for advice on how to solve this problem.

The kit:
Corsair AX 850 Pro psu, Asus p8p67 Deluxe motherboard, 2600K cpu, Gigabyte 5750 vga card, 16Gb Corsair x4 (4Gb each) module matched DRAM set (CML16GX3M4A1600C9B); Asus Xonar Essence STX soundcard, Noctua NH-C14 heatsink/cooler with x1 140mm fan, x3 Nexus case fans, Zalman ZM-MFC1 5 Channel Fan controller, Nexus Prominent 5 Case

Basically, the pc won't give a single beep and enter POST if there are more than x2 modules (8Gb) installed. It doesn't matter where the x2 are installed and it doesn't matter where modules 3 and 4 are installed. BUT -

I got a replacement board and memory and this time just installed the stock Intel heatsink/cooler plugged into the CPU header on the board and with just the vga card in. The 16Gb were recognised fine and the machine went to POST. So then I reinstalled the CPU with the Noctua heatsink with its fan and the case fans plugged into the Zalman Fan Controller and now the old problem happened again. The additional x2 modules were not recognised and stopped the machine going into POST.

Someone suggested that I should try increasing the memory frequency from 1333 (which the board had set) to 1600. After this I did get one more module recognised ok but when I added the 4th module the old problem returned and I couldn't even go back to having x3 modules installed. I had to return the frequency to 1333 before even 8Gbs (x2 modules) were recognised.

I also tried increasing the voltage to the memory from 1.5 to 1.55 but that did not help at all.

So I am stuck. The machine works ok but I cannot get the additional memory to work in it. The memory is a new low profile Vengeance set that Corsair have just brought out which they say is fully compatible with the motherboard.

I have tried the Asus and Corsair user forums without success, and am waiting to hear back from Asus support. I'm still trying to get technical help from Corsair.

Can anyone here help me with this, please?

DanceMan
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Re: Memory madness

Post by DanceMan » Sat Aug 27, 2011 11:57 am

Populating all 4 memory slots on a board has sometimes given issue to the problems you're experiencing. The usual solutions are to increase the voltage and relax the timings. You've tried the first, and despite the lack of immediate success, I would not drop the voltage back yet, but maybe increase it further until all the memory is recognized, and only then begin to go back. Surprisingly you had some benefit from advancing rather than retarding the timings. I would leave it at 1333 for now but relax the individual timings to see if you can get all of them seen. I'm no memory expert, but in dealing with cpu overclocking and memory issues in the past, I've just backed off all the timings by a few numbers as a start.

Akustyk
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Re: Memory madness

Post by Akustyk » Sat Aug 27, 2011 1:52 pm

I had a similar problem recently, but replacing ram solved so it must have been either bad or incompatible (in some strange way) ram. In your case, it is most likely the motherboard, since you tried two different kinds of ram. I am assuming that you did the BIOS reset? If so, have you tried updating our BIOS, as well? Finally, in my experience, the actual Post error messages or OS messages may not necessarily be accurate. If I were you, I would RMA the motherboard or go straight to Asus for a replacement. Unfortunately, it might take days before you get the part back from Asus.

David Cole
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Re: Memory madness

Post by David Cole » Sat Aug 27, 2011 3:51 pm

DanceMan wrote:Populating all 4 memory slots on a board has sometimes given issue to the problems you're experiencing. The usual solutions are to increase the voltage and relax the timings. You've tried the first, and despite the lack of immediate success, I would not drop the voltage back yet, but maybe increase it further until all the memory is recognized, and only then begin to go back. Surprisingly you had some benefit from advancing rather than retarding the timings. I would leave it at 1333 for now but relax the individual timings to see if you can get all of them seen. I'm no memory expert, but in dealing with cpu overclocking and memory issues in the past, I've just backed off all the timings by a few numbers as a start.

Thanks. What do you mean by "individual timings", please? I could only see an overall adjustment in the BIOS for the DRAM. To what voltage should I set the DRAM as 1.55v did not work?

I'm still curious that when I used the Intel stock heatsink/cooler plugged into the board the board saw all 4 modules and registered 16Gb. This was without any adjustments to the BIOS settings. What could be the difference between the first trial run and the final installation with the Noctua? Why might changing the heatsink and 4 pin plug make a difference? I don't understand.

David Cole
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Re: Memory madness

Post by David Cole » Sat Aug 27, 2011 4:00 pm

Akustyk wrote:I had a similar problem recently, but replacing ram solved so it must have been either bad or incompatible (in some strange way) ram. In your case, it is most likely the motherboard, since you tried two different kinds of ram. I am assuming that you did the BIOS reset? If so, have you tried updating our BIOS, as well? Finally, in my experience, the actual Post error messages or OS messages may not necessarily be accurate. If I were you, I would RMA the motherboard or go straight to Asus for a replacement. Unfortunately, it might take days before you get the part back from Asus.
Thanks. I am on my second motherboard (I replaced the first because I broke the clamp on one of the memory modules on it). Exactly the same problem. I have updated the BIOS (made no difference unfortunately) but what is a BIOS reset? The problem was (and still is) that any adjustment to the BIOS after installing either module 3 or 4 or both was/is impossible because I could/can not get into the BIOS and there was/is no signal getting to my display. As I said above I am baffled why the x4 modules played nicely with the Intel stock heatsink/cooler with fan plugged into the board but didn't like the extra x2 modules when I changed the heatsink and plugged the four pin plug into the fan controller. Identical behaviour in both my motherboards. There's a reason for the different behaviour but I can't work out what it is. Any ideas?

DanceMan
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Re: Memory madness

Post by DanceMan » Sat Aug 27, 2011 9:23 pm

I forgot two basics: Akustyk has one of them: reset the bios (clear cmos), instructions will be in your motherboard manual, and especially in a case like this dealing with ram, look for any bios updates and install them. If your board is booting with two sticks, this can be accomplished.

And second, test the ram by running Memtest. Once upon a time you could connect a floppy to do this, but you can do it with any bootable media: dvd, cd, hdd, and probably a usb stick. Rather than creating a disk only with Memtest, you can find it on other bootable disks. The Ultimate Boot CD is highly recommended because it contains just about every freeware test utility. You can download it free and burn it to a cd or dvd. And some linux live cd's, such as Ubuntu, contain Memtest among the boot options. Test the ram one stick at a time. Any error is a problem; there should be none. The bios should be set to boot from your removable media first, rather than hdd first.

You can test boot, and flash the bios and run memtest, without installing a motherboard into a case. Rest the motherboard on a non-conductive surface (a folded newspaper works well) and connect the basics: cpu, hsf, ram, keyboard, monitor, video card (if no onboard video), and something to run media like a dvd/cdrw if you want to boot to something past the bios.

DanceMan
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Re: Memory madness

Post by DanceMan » Sat Aug 27, 2011 9:40 pm

Patriot Sector 5 PGV38G1333ELK 8GB DDR3 2X4GB DDR3-1333 CL 9-9-9-24 1.65V Dual Channel Memory Kit
9-9-9-24

These are individual timings. Read the motherboard manual and you'll find how you access them. There are more than just these; for more detailed info on memory timings, googling should provide guidance. If you're relaxing timings, you're not looking for some exact numbers that will be the only ones to make it work. You're just easing up on the throttle so to speak.

Filling all four slots can stress the motherboard somewhat, requiring a little more voltage or looser timings. It all depends on the particular combination of board, ram and bios. Since the manufacturers can't test every possible combination, we can end up being the researchers. So you have to attempt to verify that the individual parts are good, and then see what settings it will take to make them work.

David Cole
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Re: Memory madness

Post by David Cole » Sun Aug 28, 2011 5:23 am

Thank you very much for your replies. A few points:

1. I know all the ram works because I have tested them individually AND the second batch worked as a set in the Intel cooler set up as 16Gbs. To say again - the four modules worked fine together giving me 16Gb when I tested them with the stock Intel heatsink.

Why would changing the heatsink to a Noctua unit and using a Zalman fan controller unit stop two of the modules working?

2. The first thing I did when I had the board working with x2 modules was install the latest BIOS. That has not helped.

I know the Board and ram can work together. - it's just not happening when I change a few components that on the face of it should make no difference at all to the functioning of the ram.

Is there any way That directly connecting the heatsink fan to the boards cpu 4 pin header rather than to a fan controller could make a difference?

I'm sure there is something simple going wrong but I can't put my finger on it. Thanks for any further thoughts.

Akustyk
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Re: Memory madness

Post by Akustyk » Sun Aug 28, 2011 3:59 pm

So it looks like you've done a lot of testing. Here's what I would do:
1. Disconnect all components other than the CPU, RAM, and video card.
2. Use the jumper on the motherboard to rest the BIOS (it's described in your owner's manual)
3. After your BIOS has been reset, it will use the default values, which usually gives you the "safest" options for your hardware to work.
4. Use one RAM stick at a time, placing it in the slot recommended in the manual
5. If this doesn't work, you're out of options, I am afraid. Something must be wrong about this particular combination of RAM, CPU, and motherboard. It could be timing or voltage, but it will be very difficult to truly find out what it is.

David Cole
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Re: Memory madness

Post by David Cole » Sun Aug 28, 2011 5:23 pm

Akustyk wrote:So it looks like you've done a lot of testing. Here's what I would do:
1. Disconnect all components other than the CPU, RAM, and video card.
2. Use the jumper on the motherboard to rest the BIOS (it's described in your owner's manual)
3. After your BIOS has been reset, it will use the default values, which usually gives you the "safest" options for your hardware to work.
4. Use one RAM stick at a time, placing it in the slot recommended in the manual
5. If this doesn't work, you're out of options, I am afraid. Something must be wrong about this particular combination of RAM, CPU, and motherboard. It could be timing or voltage, but it will be very difficult to truly find out what it is.

Thank you for this. But the basic question remains: why do I get 16Gb ok with an intel heatsink but not with the Noctua? I just don't understand this. I will see if Corsair and Asus tech support offer me anything after the weekend and then I will probably reset the BIOS and proceed as you suggest. But I am not at all hopeful.

At least I have found another Asus board owner with exactly the same problem but a different board:

http://vip.asus.com/forum/view.aspx?id= ... UXE&page=1

Maybe he will come up with something.

DanceMan
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Re: Memory madness

Post by DanceMan » Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:48 pm

I remember an issue some years ago, probably in the DDR1 era, when using 4 sticks of ram instead of 2 meant having to change a significant memory timing. I could not find anything on it by googling, but my failing memory thinks it was not being able to use CL1, having to back that off to (CL2?)
While searching for that I came across this post. Perhaps some of the suggestions from OCZ will help you. Note that the voltage changes suggested included upping the Northbridge voltage. If you're unfamiliar, this is one of (or currently with Integrated Memory Controllers in the cpu maybe the only one) the motherboard chipsets. The important point here is not to necessarily copy the exact voltage if the chipset is not the same as your board, but to apply a modest increase. But all of the suggested bios and timing changes might well help with your issue.

David Cole
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Re: Memory madness

Post by David Cole » Mon Aug 29, 2011 6:13 am

DanceMan wrote:I remember an issue some years ago, probably in the DDR1 era, when using 4 sticks of ram instead of 2 meant having to change a significant memory timing. I could not find anything on it by googling, but my failing memory thinks it was not being able to use CL1, having to back that off to (CL2?)
While searching for that I came across this post. Perhaps some of the suggestions from OCZ will help you. Note that the voltage changes suggested included upping the Northbridge voltage. If you're unfamiliar, this is one of (or currently with Integrated Memory Controllers in the cpu maybe the only one) the motherboard chipsets. The important point here is not to necessarily copy the exact voltage if the chipset is not the same as your board, but to apply a modest increase. But all of the suggested bios and timing changes might well help with your issue.
Thank you for your suggestions but I now doubt that timings etc are the answer - I had the cpu working with 16Gbs when I used the stock Intel cooler. When I switched to the Noctua NH-CL14 the problem happened. Maybe a different heatsink will be the answer. In any case, in the post you pointed me to, the poster was able to get to a BSOD - but when I am using more than x2 modules I get nothing at all - no signal to the display, no beeps, no POST only the cpu keeps going - stops for a while, then carries on. The board shows the Q message for ALS I think.

Akustyk
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Re: Memory madness

Post by Akustyk » Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:57 am

David Cole wrote: Thank you for your suggestions but I now doubt that timings etc are the answer - I had the cpu working with 16Gbs when I used the stock Intel cooler. When I switched to the Noctua NH-CL14 the problem happened. Maybe a different heatsink will be the answer. In any case, in the post you pointed me to, the poster was able to get to a BSOD - but when I am using more than x2 modules I get nothing at all - no signal to the display, no beeps, no POST only the cpu keeps going - stops for a while, then carries on. The board shows the Q message for ALS I think.
I actually doubt that the change of cooler would affect anything, other than CPU temperature. However, it is possible that while changing the cooler, you unseated the CPU, somehow. It does sometimes happen. I would take the CPU out of its socket and inspect it to see if everything is in order. Then, re-seat the cooler, and start over. Do not connect anything other than CPU, one RAM stick, and video, so you could see if it goes through Post.

David Cole
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Re: Memory madness

Post by David Cole » Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:15 pm

Thanks. Nothing happened to the cpu when i moved from Intel stock to Noctua C14. The cpu was untouched and unmoved. Iagree completely with your initial view that the change of cooler should have made no difference.

I am still baffled. The system works beautifully but with just 8Gbs rather than 16Gbs.

DanceMan
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Re: Memory madness

Post by DanceMan » Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:55 pm

Does it work with the same two sticks in the other two slots? Not that you have them in the wrong slots, but are the slots themselves okay? I still think the solution will be found in adjustments made for the load of four filled slots.

Have you reset the bios yet? Did you try raising the chipset voltage a little as well as the ram voltage?

David Cole
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Re: Memory madness

Post by David Cole » Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:24 pm

DanceMan wrote:Does it work with the same two sticks in the other two slots? Not that you have them in the wrong slots, but are the slots themselves okay? I still think the solution will be found in adjustments made for the load of four filled slots.

Have you reset the bios yet? Did you try raising the chipset voltage a little as well as the ram voltage?
Thanks. No I haven't tried these things yet. Partly because I know the memory works ok - but with the Intel cooler - and partly because I can't face getting into the case and reinstalling the board again unless I am pretty sure that it's going to be worthwhile. I know all the slots work. If x4 modules worked with the Intel cooler why would they need more voltage with a different cooler?

vertigo
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Re: Memory madness

Post by vertigo » Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:56 pm

If x4 modules worked with the Intel cooler why would they need more voltage with a different cooler?
It could be a number of things. Corsair probably only tested the memory with stock coolers. Perhaps one of those modules barely made it through testing. Or perhaps the Noctua cooler is using more power than the stock cooler, which means the current has dropped below the threshold that those high performance chips need.

You said the memory has just been released, so perhaps it is slightly less forgiving than it otherwise might be. Or it could be that the voltage profile has changed in a way that upsets the memory. It could be anything, really. It doesn't mean there is a fault, it just needs tweaking.

David Cole
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Re: Memory madness

Post by David Cole » Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:22 am

vertigo wrote:
If x4 modules worked with the Intel cooler why would they need more voltage with a different cooler?
It could be a number of things. Corsair probably only tested the memory with stock coolers. Perhaps one of those modules barely made it through testing. Or perhaps the Noctua cooler is using more power than the stock cooler, which means the current has dropped below the threshold that those high performance chips need.

You said the memory has just been released, so perhaps it is slightly less forgiving than it otherwise might be. Or it could be that the voltage profile has changed in a way that upsets the memory. It could be anything, really. It doesn't mean there is a fault, it just needs tweaking.

Thanks. Tweaking I can cope with. I'm on my second set of memory modules. I wonder if plugging the cooler fan back directly into the board might make a difference? The Intel cooler was plugged directly into the cpu socket on the board but is currently plugged into a fan controller with a lead from the fan controller (two wires) going into the board four pin cpu socket. The wiring diagram is attached - the cable I'm using for the cooler fan is C3.


http://www.zalman.com/ENG/product/Produ ... sp?idx=376

Akustyk
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Re: Memory madness

Post by Akustyk » Wed Aug 31, 2011 5:36 am

David Cole wrote: It would make more sense if it were the other way around, i.e., if the system didn't work WITH the fan plugged into the motherboard header. Fan headers are typically 1 AMP, though most manufacturers don't mention it in the spec sheet.
Here's another idea. Perhaps it is the fan controller that has some sort of electrical fault that causes more current to be drawn. It's crazy, but possible. Try unplugging it and booting without the CPU fan spinning. The heatsink will protect the CPU from overheating, at least during the boot process.

I will mention again that, once, the system I was working on stopped working when I changed CPU coolers. It turned out, the CPU was badly seated in the first place, with some of the socket pins bent. For some reason, mounting a heatsink with a lot of pressure made the difference. It's as though the regular heatsink wasn't pressing hard enough on the CPU to cause a problem due to the pins being bent. If it's not too much hassle, try taking the heatsink off and looking at the CPU socket, just for the piece of mind.

David Cole
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Re: Memory madness

Post by David Cole » Wed Aug 31, 2011 10:25 am

Akustyk wrote:
David Cole wrote: It would make more sense if it were the other way around, i.e., if the system didn't work WITH the fan plugged into the motherboard header. Fan headers are typically 1 AMP, though most manufacturers don't mention it in the spec sheet.
Here's another idea. Perhaps it is the fan controller that has some sort of electrical fault that causes more current to be drawn. It's crazy, but possible. Try unplugging it and booting without the CPU fan spinning. The heatsink will protect the CPU from overheating, at least during the boot process.

I will mention again that, once, the system I was working on stopped working when I changed CPU coolers. It turned out, the CPU was badly seated in the first place, with some of the socket pins bent. For some reason, mounting a heatsink with a lot of pressure made the difference. It's as though the regular heatsink wasn't pressing hard enough on the CPU to cause a problem due to the pins being bent. If it's not too much hassle, try taking the heatsink off and looking at the CPU socket, just for the piece of mind.

Thanks. That sounds like a plan. I'm just enjoying the new pc which is all sealed up and wonderfully quiet at the moment but will get into its innards again in a few days when I've regained my stamina and appetite for surgery.

As a matter of interest, would x2 8Gb modules work ok in my board at present, do you think?.

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