Got some advice for my new (gaming) build?

quest_for_silence · Post by **quest_for_silence** » Sun Nov 13, 2011 7:14 am

markanini wrote:Well, I always got the impression from previous posts that the Asus boards required a PWM fans for software control.

It's required for the CPU header.

JordivanderTorre · Post by **JordivanderTorre** » Sun Nov 13, 2011 5:42 pm

quest_for_silence wrote:
markanini wrote:Well, I always got the impression from previous posts that the Asus boards required a PWM fans for software control.
It's required for the CPU header.

Yes, exactly. The rest is voltage controlled. Can someone tell me what this means:

DP67BG Manual wrote:Fan speed control using voltage control (4-pin fan headers front, rear, and auxiliary) with selectable support in BIOS for 3 wire fans.
1.13.2.2 Fan Headers
The function/operation of the fan headers is as follows:
• The fans are on when the board is in the S0 state
• The fans are off when the board is off or in the S3, S4, or S5 state
• Each fan header is wired to a fan tachometer input of the hardware monitoring and
fan control ASIC
• All fan headers support closed-loop fan control that can adjust the fan speed or
switch the fan on or off as needed
• All fan headers have a +12 V DC connection
• 4-pin fan headers are controlled by Pulse Width Modulation

markanini wrote:I take the QVL lists with a grain of salt, manufacturers usually take care to follow Intels specs, just use 1.5 volt or lower. 1600MHz speed is likely enough too, even benchmarks don't show much benefit. Hope this helps.

Well, the i5 processor supports up to 1333 so I was planning to go with that. Something like: G.Skill 8 GB DDR3-1333 Kit 8192 MB, CL7 7-7-21, 2 stuk(s), PC3 10600.

quest_for_silence · Post by **quest_for_silence** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:16 am

JordivanderTorre wrote:Can someone tell me what this means

It's not easy to fully understand, to me: AFAIK the manual tells that 4-pin headers can drive both voltage-controlled and PWM fans using some switch inside BIOS/UEFI, and that the relevant ASIC use a closed-loop-fan-speed control. Other things looks like to me just overabundant explanations (that you need a 12V DC fan, as any fan inside a PC is, that at S0 - PC is turn on - the fans run, while at S3/S4/S5 - PC is in standby/hibernate/soft-off - they don't run, and so on).

I don't know what exactly means/works a closed-loop-control, but you may try to read this document.

JordivanderTorre · Post by **JordivanderTorre** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:37 am

Several fan speed controller options can control fan speed including open-loop and closed-loop fan speed control. Open-loop fan control sets a speed based on a percentage of maximum fan speed, which is typically a voltage or pulse-width modulation (PWM) duty cycle. The fan speed might be monitored to detect a fan stall, but the speed isn’t adjusted to converge on a target speed. In many cases the fan speed is not even monitored, which allows use of a slightly less expensive fan without a speed signal output (tachometer).

Closed-loop fan control provides an ideal way to control fan speed because it drives the fan to a target fan speed by measuring a tachometer signal from the fan. It then automatically adjusts the drive setting until the target speed is reached. The closed-loop fan speed method eliminates the variables that cause fan speed variation.

Well, that's nice.

JordivanderTorre · Post by **JordivanderTorre** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:20 am

So it seems both the Gene-Z and DP67BG will support the fans I want. But the Gene-Z has a HDMI port, it's Z68 and it's the same price as the DP67BG. Also, it has a more modern BIOS utility to control the system (though I'm not sure if this really matters for performance). Any comments on this issue? I hope the Gene-Z's mATX form factor won't be a problem.

Scrooge · Post by **Scrooge** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:45 am

JordivanderTorre wrote:So it seems both the Gene-Z and DP67BG will support the fans I want. But the Gene-Z has a HDMI port, it's Z68 and it's the same price as the DP67BG. Also, it has a more modern BIOS utility to control the system (though I'm not sure if this really matters for performance). Any comments on this issue? I hope the Gene-Z's mATX form factor won't be a problem.

Personally, I haven't built a machine on a full ATX board since... a long time. What do you need to install? A mATX can handle two graphics cards if you want that, and most motherboards these days have enough LAN, audio, and other ports. The only thing that's not standard yet that is frequently needed is wifi (which I wish would get as standard as GB ethernet onboard). I'll take the smaller case any day over a stack of unused expansion ports.

JordivanderTorre · Post by **JordivanderTorre** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:16 pm

Scrooge wrote:Personally, I haven't built a machine on a full ATX board since... a long time. What do you need to install? A mATX can handle two graphics cards if you want that, and most motherboards these days have enough LAN, audio, and other ports. The only thing that's not standard yet that is frequently needed is wifi (which I wish would get as standard as GB ethernet onboard). I'll take the smaller case any day over a stack of unused expansion ports.

I agree, I won't be needing that much ports either. I even think that in some regards the Gene-Z may be better than the Intel board. Neither of the boards have wifi so that's not really an issue, I think. That's what I could still use those extra ports for.

Here's an overview of what I'm looking at right now:

Case Antec SOLO II (including one Antec TrueQuiet 120 mm fan)
PSU Seasonic X-560
FAN 2x Scythe Slip Stream PWM 120 mm
MB ASUS Maximus IV GENE-Z or Intel® Desktop Board DP67BGB3
MEM G.Skill 8 GB DDR3-1333 Kit
CPU Intel® Core™ i5-2500K
CPU HS Scythe Mugen 3 SCMG-3000
GPU ASUS EAH6950 DCII/2DI4S/2GD5
OD ASUS DRW-24B3ST

Edit: The G.Skill memory listed here is just an example. As i said, the Intel board doesn't have a very extensive QVL list. The Asus however only lists 9-9-9-24 timing 2x4GB kits (Corsair and G.Skill). This makes me wonder if I should just pick one with faster timing that is not on the QVL (like the 7 7-7-21 one listed above).

Scrooge · Post by **Scrooge** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 8:57 am

JordivanderTorre wrote:Here's an overview of what I'm looking at right now:

Edit: The G.Skill memory listed here is just an example. As i said, the Intel board doesn't have a very extensive QVL list. The Asus however only lists 9-9-9-24 timing 2x4GB kits (Corsair and G.Skill). This makes me wonder if I should just pick one with faster timing that is not on the QVL (like the 7 7-7-21 one listed above).

Right, so you need one expansion slot for the GPU, with space for the cooler. MATX will handle you just fine!

As for the RAM, I've never had an issue, but I always make sure to use good-brand memory specced for 1.5v. I use the low-latency 1.5v G.Skill (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6820231440) on my Asus H61 board in my HTPC with no issues; just had to manually set the timings, which I did after getting the machine up and solid. In hindsight, I might have gone for some of the Muskin memory that doesn't have tall heatspreaders so that I could use the Big Shuriken 2, but the Kozuti works fine. I was just working from what I remembered reading a bit ago that low latency was more important in real world usage than maximum throughput.

JordivanderTorre · Post by **JordivanderTorre** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:26 am

Thanks to Rhialto (and Abula providing the link) I found out about fan control on the Gene-Z:

Brian@ASUS wrote:Correct, you need a 4pin fan to control your fan. 3 pin fans can be controlled with a rehostat that controls voltage which adjusts speed. through the bios, with the 4pin, the fan has a sensor to tell it to spin x amount of RPMs.

Although here and there people are saying that they were able to control 3-pin fans, it seems that it's not possible.

Abula · Post by **Abula** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 11:22 am

JordivanderTorre wrote:Case Antec SOLO II (including one Antec TrueQuiet 120 mm fan)
PSU Seasonic X-560
FAN 2x Scythe Slip Stream PWM 120 mm
MB ASUS Maximus IV GENE-Z or Intel® Desktop Board DP67BGB3
MEM G.Skill 8 GB DDR3-1333 Kit
CPU Intel® Core™ i5-2500K
CPU HS Scythe Mugen 3 SCMG-3000
GPU ASUS EAH6950 DCII/2DI4S/2GD5
OD ASUS DRW-24B3ST

As i already posted before, if you go with gene z and slipstreams PWM you might not be able lower below 1000rpm.... but take with a grain of salt as some have been able to do with even with 3pin fans... so idk for sure. Now the Gene Z does have 2 CPU 4pins, so you can easily use one of them for CPU fan and the second use a Akasa Flexa FP5 PWM 5-Way Splitter - Smart Fan Cable (AK-CBFA03-45) and connect all the case fans (assuming slipstreams PWM to it, you can also probably hide the cables on the back of the case).

Now talking about the intel mobos, i have had 2 intel sandy bridge, and both were able to drop the Kama Flex PWM (120mm) to 300rpm, no issues, but i never seen the mobo ramp up the fans, but my builds have had massive heatsinks so probably havent reach points where the mobo ramps them up. I dont own the DP67BGB3 that you are considering, but both H61 n Q67 behaved the same.

Good luck,

JordivanderTorre · Post by **JordivanderTorre** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:00 pm

It seems now that neither of the boards support voltage control. That means I'd have to lose the Antec fan - and that seems like a waste - or pick a new case. I'm not really looking forward to doing that. So I'm looking at the P8P67one last time. See what comes up.

JordivanderTorre · Post by **JordivanderTorre** » Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:44 am

Cheers for ROG, someone answered that life long question of the fan control.

So it looks like I'm back at the P8P67 Pro, which is fine by me. Not sure if I'll still go with the Noctua's but I'll look into that. I will need 3-pin fans though.

Edit: As suggested before by quest_for_silence, I think the Kama Flow 2 900 rpm may be a very good alternative, and also a lot cheaper.

Scrooge wrote:As for the RAM, I've never had an issue, but I always make sure to use good-brand memory specced for 1.5v. I use the low-latency 1.5v G.Skill on my Asus H61 board in my HTPC with no issues; just had to manually set the timings, which I did after getting the machine up and solid. In hindsight, I might have gone for some of the Muskin memory that doesn't have tall heatspreaders so that I could use the Big Shuriken 2, but the Kozuti works fine. I was just working from what I remembered reading a bit ago that low latency was more important in real world usage than maximum throughput.

Because I want to get the Mugen 3 CPU cooler, I don't know if it's wise for me to pick memory with a high heatsink. I've also decided to go with memory that has better latency than the one I previously had my eye on. It will have to be one of these, but the PC-builder doesn't show the RipJawsX and the GeIL (the latter due to delivery period, the former probably something to do with the motherboard) so those are probably not an option. What do you guys think?

JordivanderTorre · Post by **JordivanderTorre** » Fri Nov 18, 2011 11:07 am

By the way, quest, since you asked about my first name, I asked my father about it. He told me that it blew over from Spain during the time that Johan Cruijff (famous soccer player) played there. He named his son Jordi and so a lot of people did too.

Scrooge · Post by **Scrooge** » Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:16 pm

JordivanderTorre wrote:Because I want to get the Mugen 3 CPU cooler, I don't know if it's wise for me to pick memory with a high heatsink. I've also decided to go with memory that has better latency than the one I previously had my eye on. It will have to be one of these, but the PC-builder doesn't show the RipJawsX and the GeIL (the latter due to delivery period, the former probably something to do with the motherboard) so those are probably not an option. What do you guys think?

Ok, I'm navigating that Dutch based on a few semesters of German several years ago, but

http://www.alternate.nl/html/product/Ge ... =DDR3-1333

Looks like low latency 1.5v RAM with no heatspreaders at all to worry about. I'm assuming the three green boxes mean it's available, since it seems to say 15 euro next-day delivery. Any reason that wouldn't work for you? I know it's GeIL, but it looks like they're there...

JordivanderTorre · Post by **JordivanderTorre** » Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:29 pm

Oh, the link wasn't really working but you found one of them. (Well done on the navigation.

) I was actually referring to the following, leaving out the ones that didn't show on the pc-builder:

http://www.alternate.nl/html/product/Ge ... =DDR3-1333
http://www.alternate.nl/html/product/Ge ... =DDR3-1333
http://www.alternate.nl/html/product/Ge ... =DDR3-1333
http://www.alternate.nl/html/product/Ge ... =DDR3-1333

I'd prefer going with the Ripjaws (if they fit) because they have the second best latency and are the best priced.

Edit: Since Abula owns the Mugen 3, maybe he can tell me if the Ripjaws would fit?

hausertrey · Post by **hausertrey** » Sun Nov 20, 2011 8:57 pm

I just wanted to comment (randomly) and say that while this is a really long thread, it's incredibly informative for a new builder like me. I appreciate the time people are taking to respond to it

JordivanderTorre · Post by **JordivanderTorre** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:59 am

Haha, I feel the same, hausertrey. Even if you're not building it yourself (like me), it's still a lot to trouble your mind with. So I am very glad too that we have these wise (old) men to fall back on.

JordivanderTorre · Post by **JordivanderTorre** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:43 pm

So I've got another issue I'd like to discuss with you guys. Yes, another one.

My father gave me his old (2007) LCD tv and I was glad because I can watch 1080p movies on it through my pc. The only drawback was that the audio didn't work (TRS-connector on ext. 3, DVI-HMDI on HDMI port, all according to the manual). I've sent a query to the manufacturer (Philips) but I don't have much hope that they will be able to help.
Now, the issue that I'd like to discuss is that of the graphics card some of you recommended for my new (and silent) pc. The ASUS EAH6950 DCII/2DI4S/2GD5 is silent but it doesn't have an HDMI output, so I would still have the same problem with audio on my tv if I can't fix it. It's not a big issue, since I value a silent pc more than using my pc speakers for sound when watching a movie, but I was curious whether or not there was another graphics card with HDMI output that you could recommend me.
For example, Alternate lists the following HD6950 in that range:

http://www.alternate.nl/html/product/Gr ... ition%2FOC
http://www.alternate.nl/html/product/Gr ... ition%2FOC
http://www.alternate.nl/html/product/Gr ... ition%2FOC
http://www.alternate.nl/html/product/Gr ... ition%2FOC
http://www.alternate.nl/html/product/Gr ... ition%2FOC

Abula · Post by **Abula** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 6:16 pm

JordivanderTorre wrote:Edit: Since Abula owns the Mugen 3, maybe he can tell me if the Ripjaws would fit?

I dont own any ripjaws, but i do own gskill ecos (which are lower profile), draw your own conclusions from the following pic, Mugen 3 + Intel Q67 Mobo + Gskill eco.

The Mugen fan placement is a little fexible in terms of able to move it up or down, but it really going to depend on case also.

JordivanderTorre · Post by **JordivanderTorre** » Tue Nov 22, 2011 6:12 am

Thanks for the picture, Abula. I hope you didn't take that just for me.

It looks like a tight fit though. I don't know the exact measurements but if you say that the Ripjaws are taller, I believe you.
So that leaves the GeIL and the Kingston. Even though the Kingston is more expensive, I'm still thinking "what's that extra 8 euro on the whole build". Ooh, plus it has a 99 months warranty instead of 36.

JordivanderTorre · Post by **JordivanderTorre** » Mon Nov 28, 2011 12:08 pm

So yeah, I guess that's about it (never mind the HDMI thing). Many thanks to you wise men - may your days be long - for helping me see this through (special thanks to quest_for_silence and Abula). Of course, the real adventure has yet to begin.

See below for the final build (it looks like Asus is a winner). I'll probably order it somewhere next week if there aren't any shaming comments and if I don't spontaneously change my mind about something. I'll let you guys know how it runs if it does.

Case Antec SOLO II (including one Antec TrueQuiet 120 mm fan)
PSU Seasonic X-560
FAN 2x Scythe Kama Flow2 900rpm 120x120x25
MB ASUS P8P67 PRO Rev. 3.1
MEM Kingston HyperX 8 GB DDR3-1333 Kit
CPU Intel® Core™ i5-2500K
CPU HS Scythe Mugen 3 SCMG-3000
GPU ASUS EAH6950 DCII/2DI4S/2GD5
OD ASUS DRW-24B3ST

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