Digital Audio Workstation Build: pls. help me pick a case

[scoring4film]

Most of Z68 motherboards have HDMI and DVI, and both can be used in an independent dual display configuration.

My monitors are VGA/DVI, so I might end up needing the ASUS nVidia GeForce GT210 after all. Man, this rig building stuff can sure get complicated.

[CA_Steve]

cpu cache size matter? don't worry about it - you are going with the i7-2700k and it comes with larger cache than the i5-2500K in any case.

DPC latency: I ran across this thread. Seems like the P8Z68-V PRO worked for him @ 60 to 100usec. Sounds like you will be doing some fine tuning in the BIOS to get it there. Gen 3 versions of the mobo are out to support Ivy Bridge CPUs (next year). The P8Z68-V/Gen 3 and P68Z68-V Pro/Gen 3 are similar, except the Pro also has: 1394, a USB 3 bracket for the back of the case, 4 SATA 6Gbps instead of 2 SATA 6Gbps connections (no need unless you have more than 2 SSDs).

Hard drives and number of simultaneous samples/tracks: This is well out of my comfort zone. Wander the forum boards for your s/w vendor and see what you can find. Seems like you can solve this a couple of ways:
1) current gen WD Greens may be good enough.
2) You could go with WD Caviar Black or even a Scorpio Black and stuff it in a [url=http://www.silentpcreview.com/article991-page4.html]Scythe Quiet Drive box. Might consider adding a low rpm/silent fan to the front of the Solo, just for added HDD cooling.
3) You could partition your SSD for OS/Apps and for a scratch disk, perhaps. Or, get a second SSD just for scratch disk. Don't think you'd have any constraints, then.

[CA_Steve]

Take a look at the asus mobo's...I think they have 1 ea VGA, DVI, and HDMI. You can always get an HDMI to DVI adapter for a couple of bucks. Don't sweat it.

[MikeC]

Among the relatively recent 7200 HDDs we reviewed, the Hitachi Deskstar 7K1000.C 1TB stands atop w/ 13 dBA idle and 17 dBA seek. The WD Blues and Blacks run more like 15-16 dBA idle and 20~23 seek. The 7K1000.C is a 2 platter drive; the newer Deskstar 7K1000.D is a 1TB single-platter drive, which should be quieter still and vibrate less, though Hitachi rates them about the same acoustically. That could be a good bet. (check reviews in the storage section)

We haven't reviewed Samsung 7200 models in a while as samples have been hard to obtain, but the last ones we did examine were the quietest of the 7200s at the time. Not sure how they would stand against the current WDs and Hitachis.

Another Hitachi to consider is the 5K3000 2TB 5940RPM, an alternative to Samsung and WD Eco/Green drives, which performed much quicker than the competition and actually came in 3rd in overall weighted performance at the time it was reviewed a few mos ago.

[alain]

A Z68 chipset board is what you want. Supports the built-in GPU & adds full overclocking support for CPU, memory and integrated graphics.

I've never used a mobo with a built-in GPU/integrated graphics. Will it be able to handle my two 22" monitors?

Most of Z68 motherboards have HDMI and DVI, and both can be used in an independent dual display configuration.

I have a brand new from Gigabyte with Displayport, hdmi, DVI and VGA (analog).

[alain]

Is it possible to suspend two drives and then mount another drive in a HD bay?

Below the lowest supension there room for a 2.5" drive, for example a second SSD. On top it's possible to add a 2.5" drive upside down, not a problem for a SSD.

It should be possible to add a 3.5" drive below, but not with the default mounting tray, de drives hit each other. Skipping the mounting tray gives some extra room.
To give some idea see the picture below :
http://www.silentpcreview.com/article1218-page3.html

Thanks Alain. I checked out the picture but I can't see how where a third drive might go, with two suspended drives in place. Are you suggesting that an HDD be mounted somewhere outside of the HDD cage?

When the bottom mounting tray is removed from the HDD cage there about 10mm extra height. But unfortunally there are no holes predrilled there.

At the bottom of the SOLO II there's also room for a HDD, also without mounting facilities.

[alain]

Among the relatively recent 7200 HDDs we reviewed, the Hitachi Deskstar 7K1000.C 1TB stands atop w/ 13 dBA idle and 17 dBA seek. The WD Blues and Blacks run more like 15-16 dBA idle and 20~23 seek. The 7K1000.C is a 2 platter drive; the newer Deskstar 7K1000.D is a 1TB single-platter drive, which should be quieter still and vibrate less, though Hitachi rates them about the same acoustically. That could be a good bet. (check reviews in the storage section)

We haven't reviewed Samsung 7200 models in a while as samples have been hard to obtain, but the last ones we did examine were the quietest of the 7200s at the time. Not sure how they would stand against the current WDs and Hitachis.

Another Hitachi to consider is the 5K3000 2TB 5940RPM, an alternative to Samsung and WD Eco/Green drives, which performed much quicker than the competition and actually came in 3rd in overall weighted performance at the time it was reviewed a few mos ago.

Hi

I have a Hitachi 7K3000 2TB 7200rpm and this is fast and I almost don't hear it in my (old p150 aka solo). I made two partitions the first is 400GB and this is for things I need fast, the second partition is for storage which doesn't has to be fast.

[alain]

Hi

With a budget of 2K I would think about using 2 SSD's. If you're used audio tracks fit in a SSD (128 or 256 GB) this would be probably very fast.

So 1 SSD for OS and programs and 1 SSD for the audio tracks that are active (read, in use in that job/session/jig/...).

[kuzzia]

Or, if you work with the same few samples for a while, you could use Intel's own SSD caching (Smart Response Technology). Anandtech has reviewed this technology thoroughly.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/4329/inte ... g-review/2

Running two displays using IGP should not be a problem if you don't do anything graphic intensive. I played Call of Duty 4 and MW2 on the 880G running at ~700 MHz running two displays with a resolution at 1280x1024. For non-graphical intensive work, IGP should be fine. And you can always experiment: if the IGP of the Core i7 doesn't fit your needs, then be free to upgrade. That way, you are likely to save yourself a couple of bucks.

[scoring4film]

Hi

With a budget of 2K I would think about using 2 SSD's. If you're used audio tracks fit in a SSD (128 or 256 GB) this would be probably very fast.

So 1 SSD for OS and programs and 1 SSD for the audio tracks that are active (read, in use in that job/session/jig/...).

hey Alain, that's a great idea and you inspired me to take it a step further...

My current 500Gb audio-only drive is a little over half full, so that suggests I'd need a 256Gb SSD to replace it, which would be a bit expensive. But most of the stuff on my audio drive is usually JUST SITTING THERE. Periodically I have to re-open old projects to remix a track for a client or the like, but for the most part, I have only a half dozen or so ACTIVE projects at any given time.

So now I'm thinking of getting a smaller, affordable, "active project" audio only SDD and then keep all my semi-archived audio projects on one of the big 2Tb drives. Cubase has very good project folder/contents management features, so moving projects around is a snap. Seems like a fantastic idea.

I've read some DAW users accounts of negative experiences using an SSD as an audio drive, so I'm going to do a little more research to make sure this scheme will actually work. But one less mechanical drive AND better performance would really take this new machine to the next level for me. Thanks again Alain.

[EDIT: ha! just noticed that markanini already suggested this several posts ago, as did Alain. A bit too excited to be reading/learning all this stuff. Must slow down.]

[alain]

Most of Z68 motherboards have HDMI and DVI, and both can be used in an independent dual display configuration.

My monitors are VGA/DVI, so I might end up needing the ASUS nVidia GeForce GT210 after all. Man, this rig building stuff can sure get complicated.

I just installed a 1600*1200 DVI monitor + HD analog monitor to my new Gigabyte GA-Z68X-UD3H-B3 motherboard and they both work with the IGP.

[Zolishoru]

...I would add a 500GB-1TB 7200RPM single platter drive as work drive, just in case...

Can you recommend a model? How do you find out how many platters a drive has?

Among the relatively recent 7200 HDDs we reviewed, the Hitachi Deskstar 7K1000.C 1TB stands atop w/ 13 dBA idle and 17 dBA seek. The WD Blues and Blacks run more like 15-16 dBA idle and 20~23 seek. The 7K1000.C is a 2 platter drive; the newer Deskstar 7K1000.D is a 1TB single-platter drive, which should be quieter still and vibrate less, though Hitachi rates them about the same acoustically. That could be a good bet. (check reviews in the storage section)

We haven't reviewed Samsung 7200 models in a while as samples have been hard to obtain, but the last ones we did examine were the quietest of the 7200s at the time. Not sure how they would stand against the current WDs and Hitachis.

Another Hitachi to consider is the 5K3000 2TB 5940RPM, an alternative to Samsung and WD Eco/Green drives, which performed much quicker than the competition and actually came in 3rd in overall weighted performance at the time it was reviewed a few mos ago.

Thanks to MikeC for doing the recommendations in my place ; the easiest(and I the most reliable) way to find out a hard drive specifications is from the manufacturer home page.

[Abula]

...I would add a 500GB-1TB 7200RPM single platter drive as work drive, just in case...

Can you recommend a model? How do you find out how many platters a drive has?

The only 1tb platter drive that i seen the market is HITACHI Deskstar 7K1000.D HDS721010DLE630 (0F13180) 1TB 7200 RPM 32MB Cache SATA 6.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive -Bare Drive, Seagate also has 1tb platters, but i havent seen a 1tb disk, other should have their disk also to come out, but with the flooding might be delayed... who knows.

[markanini]

Nice proposed build. One caveat: I came across this post in the RME user forum by googling "RME sandy bridge". Apparently, the 'avoid Sandy Bridge' stuff is due to Intel's implementation of the PCI to PCI-e bridge (starved for bandwidth). While Intel has updated the bridge firmware, you might want to contact RME directly to make sure your specific PCI card will work as intended.

Wow, this is gold to me. I use a PCI audio interface for audio production but I haven had a chance to put my system through it's paces in this capacity yet. I'll stick to Sandy bridge though in as I'm not doing any mission critical work but I'll request more info from motherboard manufacturers. This is a case where Asrock's absent customer support lets you down.
Kudos for the skillful sleuthing, CA_Steve!

[scoring4film]

Nice proposed build. One caveat: I came across this post in the RME user forum by googling "RME sandy bridge". Apparently, the 'avoid Sandy Bridge' stuff is due to Intel's implementation of the PCI to PCI-e bridge (starved for bandwidth). While Intel has updated the bridge firmware, you might want to contact RME directly to make sure your specific PCI card will work as intended.

hey CA_Steve, thanks again for flagging the PCI to PCI-e bridge issue. After posting about it on the RME forum, one of the moderators said...

"AFIAK the latest revisions of the z68 Gigabyte, ASUS and MSI boards should be good. At least ones with 2 or less PCI slots."

Also, one of the big DAW builders in the US also thinks I'll be fine (asked him in a thread on gearslutz.com).

[bonestonne]

To my knowledge, Sandy Bridge and PCI are a terrible combination.

Intel has nearly completely clueless about the problems until about 4-5 weeks ago. There is no brand that's immune to this problem, and no driver fix could possibly fix it.

It's true that the X58 chipset is the last one to really be PCI "compatible." The newest release of boards will have a new firmware on the ITE PCIe to PCI bridge, however, I haven't seen any tests say whether it's successful or not at this time.

If you are looking to find the Latency of motherboards before buying, it's best to post around forums looking for other users who have the board, to report their BIOS and current latency with all of their hardware listed. Also keep in mind that changing the BIOS can make a difference of night and day.

My P45/Q9400 system went from a version 1.8 BIOS to a 1.B, and it solved every issue I had. Going to the latest 1.C revision available gave me even more issues than I started with.

Remember that if you're using Win7, you can't manually set IRQs. You can manually set the priority of each IRQ, but I would not rely on that if you have problems.

I run DAW systems and used to work in a radio/tv station, I'm currently in a small computer shop, and I'll be honest, I'm still extremely wary of SSDs. I've known people who have them running going on 3/4 years now, as they were early adopters, and they have had no problems, but I've read my share of horror stories.

There are a lot of small details about caring for SSDs as well as the "proper" way to set them up, if you go the route of an SSD, this would be absolutely necessary to follow. I will also make the point that newer hard drives are fast enough to handle most workload without any problems.

I have a 750gb 5400rpm drive in my MacBook Pro, and I've recorded 10 simultaneous tracks to the internal hard drive (no space for a second drive at the gig) and nearly 4 hours later, no hiccups at all, so I take the DAW "proper setup guides" with a large grain of salt.

If this were my personal system, I'd use WD raptors for OS and audio drives, and I would use external drives to store projects. Two identical external drives, both with the same copies of projects. I've lost my own projects that couldn't be replaced, it really sucks. I know a lot of photographers who swear by Drobo external arrays ranging from 4 to 10TB. That's something else to maybe think about.

I would give SSDs a chance if the prices were down and it was a good time to buy, but I would absolutely back up every piece of every project after every session if you have any shred of a doubt.

As far as video goes, I'm not sure I would ever use integrated video for a workstation that needs graphics acceleration (and believe me, a DAW does need it).

[scoring4film]

As far as video goes, I'm not sure I would ever use integrated video for a workstation that needs graphics acceleration (and believe me, a DAW does need it).

Thanks for all the heads-up suggestions. Here are some DAW users who give the green light for using integrated GPUs...

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/music-co ... -jobs.html

...I started another thread on the topic at gearslutz.com to see if there are any more opinions out there.

According to the moderator in the forum of the manufacturer of my audio card, as well as a couple of pro DAW builders, the Z68/PCI thing should no longer be an issue. I hope they're right.

CA_Steve found at least one DAW builder who got excellent latency performance out of the Asus P8Z68-V Pro ...

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 28#4560228

I've discovered that many DAW users/builders use an SSD for an OS drive, so I'm willing to give it try, with a solid back-up scheme in place.

I'm still on the fence about whether or not to use an SSD as an "active projects" or work/scratch drive. Researching SSD performance has left me feeling a bit confused and overwhelmed. So many specs to consider such an incredible spread of performance scores across the different models/brands.

New build list coming soon...

[markanini]

Well as you'll have the SSD for the OS you'll have the chance to copy over some big projects to the SSD and see how it copes. I read Intel supports TRIM in RAID now which makes RAID feasible for SSD and opens lots of possibilities. BTW If I were you I'd contact the sound card and motherboard manufacturer beforehand about the PCI bridge issue. Even if they fixed it shops might still be selling old stock. Also just today I learned it's not uncommon for PCI cards to contain their own PCI bridge, with a possible double conversion happening I could see issues arising, fixed or not.

[scoring4film]

UPDATED BUILD (nothing from the original list remains )

Case: Antec Solo II [swap out single rear stock fan?]

CPU: Intel i7 2600k [2700k is +$40, worth it?]

Mobo: Asus P8Z68-V Pro [GEN3 is +$30, worth it?]

Memory: Corsair Vengeance Low Profile Blue 16GB (4x4GB) DDR3 1600MHz CL9 1.5V DIMM (CML16GX3M4A1600C9B)

Heatsink: Prolimatech Genesis [where to buy?]

Heatsink Fans: [not sure, will any pair of 140mm Scythe case fans work?]

OS Drive: Crucial M4 CT128M4SSD2 128GB SSD

Active projects/work Drive: Crucial M4 CT064M4SSD2 64GB SSD
[Will Crucial M4 cut it as a "work" drive? Because a small drive would work for this purpose --even ~40Gb could work-- should I go for a bleeding edge, best quality SSD instead? intel?]

Sample Drives (one will also function as a "semi-archived audio" drive)
2 X Hitachi Deskstar 5K3000 HDS5C3020ALA632 (spindle speed is now listed as 5400rpm)

PSU: Seasonic X-400W

Case Fans:
2 X Scythe SY1225SL12L "Slipstream" Case Fan [use rubber fan mounts on these?]

Many thanks for any suggestions!

[kuzzia]

Changing fan:
Not immediately, the stock fan is acoustically very good. If you would need more airflow then I'd suggest you fill out the two other fan positions first.

CPU:
When overclocking the stock frequency means nothing. But perhaps the manufacturing of the 2700k is better than that of the 2600k which might allow you to squeeze some extra MHz out of the 2700k. I'd personally go for the 2600k since I don't believe the optimized manufacturing process is worth the 40 US$.

SSD:
What exactly do you mean with "bleeding edge, best quality SSD"?

Case fans:
Personally, I don't believe the vibration from case fans is significant, especially not at low speeds. The Antec Solo II is also made of a thick layer of steel which decreases the need for antivibration tools. Also, 800 rpm is probably too much for an ultra-quiet built. Have you considered any fancontrolling?

[MikeC]

Your new build list looks good.

As for some of the question you're still asking yourself, the right choice is not to go for higher performance but higher reliability, because even though there are measurable differences between them, almost any of the decent SSDs offer a quantum leap in performance over HDDs. The Crucial M4 looks really solid, right up there with Intel SSDs for the highest user ratings/numbers at Newegg. This is where the #s game matters, imo. The highest # of user ratings, and the highest avg rating means fewer people have trouble w/ them. It may not be infallible (there are lots of disguised marketers) but no formal review (including ours) can give you this info.

Prolimatech -- don't sweat it, get a good tower HSF that you can find. Any number of tower HSF will do you fine, and if you have a back panel fan, I doubt you will need 2 fans on the HS to keep it CnQ.

[MikeC]

2 X Hitachi Deskstar 5K3000 HDS5C3020ALA632 (spindle speed is now listed as 5400rpm)

Not sure where you'd have seen that, but I doubt it's right.

The original 5940rpm spec was found only on a highly detailed, technical OEM manual for the DS5K3000-2TB & CS5K2000, not in any of the normal spec or product sheets. Hitachi has a couple other drives w/ 5700rpm, but spindle speed is not something you can mess w/ once the drive is out there; change the rpm, and every spec would change. If the drive had a difference rpm, it'd have a different model #.

[scoring4film]

SSD:
What exactly do you mean with "bleeding edge, best quality SSD"?

I guess I meant the "money-is-no-object" SSD or the cadillac of SSDs. Because the "work" SSD can be so small, I thought it might be worthwhile to get the best of best. But exactly what that is, I have no idea.

As I mentioned above, I can't get my head around all the specs and incredible spread of performance scores across the different models/brands of SSDs. I think I'll go with MikeC's suggestion and use "the wisdom of the crowd" at newegg as my guide.

[scoring4film]

. Have you considered any fancontrolling?

I'm very intersted in fancontrolling. Have I chosen the wrong fan models for that? I thought all the scythe models were PWM. The mobo I picked has ~4-5 fan headers. I'm very interested in getting the fan rpm's down as far as possible. I have to do more research needed on this I guess...

[scoring4film]

2 X Hitachi Deskstar 5K3000 HDS5C3020ALA632 (spindle speed is now listed as 5400rpm)

Not sure where you'd have seen that, but I doubt it's right.

The original 5940rpm spec was found only on a highly detailed, technical OEM manual for the DS5K3000-2TB & CS5K2000, not in any of the normal spec or product sheets. Hitachi has a couple other drives w/ 5700rpm, but spindle speed is not something you can mess w/ once the drive is out there; change the rpm, and every spec would change. If the drive had a difference rpm, it'd have a different model #.

For some reason the specs at tigerdirect say 5400rpm. Same model No. as the one reviewed at SPCR...

http://www.tigerdirect.ca/applications/ ... CatId=4357

...if I had to guess, I'd say tigdir has it wrong.

[CA_Steve]

Case: use the existing case fan

CPU: Not worth the $40 for 100MHz when you can just OC the 2600k if you want.

Mobo: Gen 3 gives you compatibility with Ivy Bridge..and probably a longer tail for BIOS updates.. So, a year or two down the road you can put in a new CPU and get another 30-50% pop in horsepower for $200-300.

OS Drive: I like the m4 128GB. My C300 128GB has been great. Time to bend your mind some more. Fresh out of the box, when you format your SSD, be sure to over-provision it. Just 10-20% and you may get a big IOPS and endurance bump. To over-provision, just format the drive for less than it's stated capacity.

Projects Drive: One of the reasons SSDs can be so fast is that the memory controller uses a large number of read/write channels...it can read/write to many banks of flash at the same time. However, as you go to smaller SSD capacities, the number of flash chips and read/write channels goes down. This is why you only see OEMs handing out the highest capacity drives for review. So, I'd consider one of two routes:
- just add a projects partition of 40GB to your OS/apps drive.
- get another 128GB SSD.

PSU: Seasonic X-400W

Case Fans: Don't need two, might not need 1. Worst case, use one dialed down to 400rpm or so.

[alain]

UPDATED BUILD (nothing from the original list remains )

Case: Antec Solo II [swap out single rear stock fan?]

CPU: Intel i7 2600k [2700k is +$40, worth it?]

Mobo: Asus P8Z68-V Pro [GEN3 is +$30, worth it?]

Memory: Corsair Vengeance Low Profile Blue 16GB (4x4GB) DDR3 1600MHz CL9 1.5V DIMM (CML16GX3M4A1600C9B)

Heatsink: Prolimatech Genesis [where to buy?]

Heatsink Fans: [not sure, will any pair of 140mm Scythe case fans work?]

OS Drive: Crucial M4 CT128M4SSD2 128GB SSD

Active projects/work Drive: Crucial M4 CT064M4SSD2 64GB SSD
[Will Crucial M4 cut it as a "work" drive? Because a small drive would work for this purpose --even ~40Gb could work-- should I go for a bleeding edge, best quality SSD instead? intel?]

Sample Drives (one will also function as a "semi-archived audio" drive)
2 X Hitachi Deskstar 5K3000 HDS5C3020ALA632 (spindle speed is now listed as 5400rpm)

PSU: Seasonic X-400W

Case Fans:
2 X Scythe SY1225SL12L "Slipstream" Case Fan [use rubber fan mounts on these?]

Many thanks for any suggestions!

SOLO II stockfan is good, no need to swap.

i7 2600K : Is you're workload heavily multi threaded (read the workload that matters for you!)? If not, consider a i5 2500K.

Don't buy a 64GB SSD as explained, test with the OS drive, normally you only need 40-50GB for OS and programs. If you need more, buy a second 128GB SSD. (Having two the same also has the advantage of having a backup -with some effort-)

[alain]

Case: use the existing case fan


OS Drive: I like the m4 128GB. My C300 128GB has been great. Time to bend your mind some more. Fresh out of the box, when you format your SSD, be sure to over-provision it. Just 10-20% and you may get a big IOPS and endurance bump. To over-provision, just format the drive for less than it's stated capacity.

Hi the over-provision paper is "old" (2007), is that not dated after TRIM came available?

[markanini]

OS Drive: Crucial M4 CT128M4SSD2 128GB SSD

Active projects/work Drive: Crucial M4 CT064M4SSD2 64GB SSD
[Will Crucial M4 cut it as a "work" drive? Because a small drive would work for this purpose --even ~40Gb could work-- should I go for a bleeding edge, best quality SSD instead? intel?]

Sample Drives (one will also function as a "semi-archived audio" drive)
2 X Hitachi Deskstar 5K3000 HDS5C3020ALA632 (spindle speed is now listed as 5400rpm)
[/b]

LOL, why not skip the "work drive" until you determined the other drives insufficient?
Crucial m4 are a super fast and solid option right now, unlike Sandforce based drives they don't employ data compression and probably perform more like the benchmarks indicate whereas Sandforce will have varied performance in real world applications. With value, performance and stability counted for Intel doesn't really offer anything over Corsair m4 ATM IMHO. Either will be equally capable but Crucial m4 is a no-brainer.

[CA_Steve]

Hi the over-provision paper is "old" (2007), is that not dated after TRIM came available?

TRIM helps to keep speeds high, over provisioning still helps with endurance/longevity.