Passive System Advice

[jamesgalb]

Against all advice I have read, I am looking to build a 100% passive system... Reason? It is for an Digital Audio Workstation that will be in the same room as all recording equipment, and I want the room to be as silent as possible and to have no inaudible vibrations effecting any of the equipment... I know I know, most will think im taking uneccessary precaution, but its going to happen

So here is the setup... Please feel free to advise another direction if you know of a better option...

CPU: i7-4790S (Chosen for being most powerful 65w processor I know)
CPU Cooler: NoFan CR-95C (#1 recommendation)

GPU: Zotac GTX 750ti OC (Chosen for new Maxwell at low power, 4 monitor support, low 'overclock')
GPU Cooler: ARCTIC Accelero S1 Plus (Best reviews I have seen for a passive GPU cooler)

PSU: Rosewill SilentNight-500 (Best reviews I have seen for a passive PSU, also visually matches good reviews of other passive PSUs in past. Does not look like same PSU manufacture of ones that have gotten weak reviews - Plenty of Wattage for job, so hopefully light load)

Case: Silverstone RV03 (Chosen as roated motherboard allows plenty of heat ventilation through top. - None of the heating components are stacked/near, like CPU, GPU and PSU. - PSU has ventilation on all sides. - CPU/motherboard has passive bottom ventilation.)

Sound Card: Creative Sound Blaster ZxR (Normally this wouldnt be important to cooling, but I thought it was worth note that this would be going between the CPU and the GPU, creating more space and seperating their heat.)

Motherboard: GIGABYTE GA-Z97X-UD7 TH (Again, not normally a component related to cooling, but I did want to make note that the PCIe slot I will be using for the GPU will be 5 slots away from the CPU, keeping the hottest elements far apart.)

Memory: Crucial Ballistix Sport (Lower Voltage at 1.35V. I am assuming this runs cooler than 1.5V memory, but either way it couldnt hurt the overall build to go lower voltage)


Could this work as a fully passive build with ZERO fans? Would anything be better going a different direction?

[MikeC]

It would probably work, but the cooler won't keep the CPU cool for long under load. Go for a NoFan cooler instead.

[CA_Steve]

Welcome to SPCR.

I get distracted by component selection. Most of the DAW builds I've seen do the analog sound processing outside the PC and use a digital interface (lately USB) to the PC for the rest of the processing. So, the Creative cards are puzzling.

gfx card: do you have an application that needs the GTX 750Ti's horsepower or do you just want to run 4 monitors? If the former, look at the Asus Strix version. It's passive for non-3D applications. If the latter, drop down to a passive GTX 750.

CPU: does your DAW s/w make use of hyperthreading? That determines i7 or lesser CPU. Do you have tons of virtual instruments or just a few tracks to mix together? If the latter, all you need is an i3. Figure out your performance reqmt and then choose the CPU.

PSU: stressed load with stated components is under 180W and more likely in the <100W range while recording. More on this later.

mobo: if you are doing a Hackintosh build, then go for the Gigabyte mobo. If Windows, then look at Asus or MSI or Asrock for the better BIOS level fan control. Gigabyte has decent Windows level fan control...but I advise against having extra s/w running in the background generating interrups and tasks as it'll increase your DPC latency. Do you use/need Thunderbolt?

completely fanless: better off to go with a system tuned to be silent while recording and then can be cool running with quiet fans under high loads.

[bbalex]

I agree with others - your choice of CPU cooler is probably not safe. I have used a Nofan CR95-C with a i7 4770S, and it is safe to use, even when doing a Prime 95 Large FFT test with AVX (well, it does reach 85C, when the ambient is 20C), as long as the motherboard is placed horizontally. If the motherboard is placed vertically, cooling performance is worse by about 8C.

For a vertically mounted motherboard, the new revised Thermalright HR-02 Macho Zero might be better than the NoFan CR-95C, if the reviews that I have seen so far are to be trusted. The old HR-02 was worse (and was tested by SPCR).

Don't underestimate the orientation of the passive cooler; like I said above, there is a huge difference in performance between the horizontal and vertical placement of the NoFan. And that's as expected, when you look at how the heatpipes are located on the cooler; in vertical orientation, the heatpipe in the bottom half of the NoFan is located below the heat source (the CPU) and has gravity working against it, and that's why the performance takes a big hit. Unfortunately, I did not see this tested in the reviews of the cooler, except in some tables on frostytech. The results above are from my own tests. In fact, a lot of reviewers don't seem to understand the importance of the placement of the heatpipes and of their endpoints relative to the heat source. And this affects video cards too - one of the reason why you see some results in reviews done on open benches with horizontally placed motherboards, and different results when someone places the card in the usual tower case with a vertical motherboard.

[jamesgalb]

Welcome to SPCR.

I get distracted by component selection. Most of the DAW builds I've seen do the analog sound processing outside the PC and use a digital interface (lately USB) to the PC for the rest of the processing. So, the Creative cards are puzzling.

gfx card: do you have an application that needs the GTX 750Ti's horsepower or do you just want to run 4 monitors? If the former, look at the Asus Strix version. It's passive for non-3D applications. If the latter, drop down to a passive GTX 750.

CPU: does your DAW s/w make use of hyperthreading? That determines i7 or lesser CPU. Do you have tons of virtual instruments or just a few tracks to mix together? If the latter, all you need is an i3. Figure out your performance reqmt and then choose the CPU.

PSU: stressed load with stated components is under 180W and more likely in the <100W range while recording. More on this later.

mobo: if you are doing a Hackintosh build, then go for the Gigabyte mobo. If Windows, then look at Asus or MSI or Asrock for the better BIOS level fan control. Gigabyte has decent Windows level fan control...but I advise against having extra s/w running in the background generating interrups and tasks as it'll increase your DPC latency. Do you use/need Thunderbolt?

completely fanless: better off to go with a system tuned to be silent while recording and then can be cool running with quiet fans under high loads.

Seems the NoFan CPU coolers may be the better option, so will be going with them (a little more expensive, but imo worth it).

The Creative card is completely optional, but I figure if I am going to be spending a pretty penny on this machine then I might as well outfit it with the best soundcard on the market. At under $250, I wont hurt that much. Although I do intend to modify the Op Amps if I get it...

With the 750 ti I picked it for a couple reasons... Its the newest nVidia architecture, so wont be outdated for some time (DX 12, OpenCL 2, etc)... Its main attribute I wanted out of it was its 4 monitor support... It is also the most powerful card I know of capable of running cool enough for a passive design, and if GPU processing for cuda core manipulation ever find their way into music consumer production software, it would be nice to potentially have something capable of messing with it... But again, main things are the 4 monitor support and the most-up-to-date architecture (GTX 750 is Keplar, 1 gen behind now).

With the processor, I wanted something powerful as I intend to run 4 monitors and could have as many as 4 audio processing programs open at the same time, from ProTools to Abbleton Live to FL Studio to Finale, multi-tasking between programs will likely be very common. I also plan to have various components plugged in at any given time, so want enough muscle so that things never become an issue... Im also under the impression that a 65w i7 at half/quarter load would run cooler than a 45w i3 at full load, no?

Motherboard... Yeah, I want to try out installing Mac on this thing, so want to stick with components I know to be safe. Gigabyte has a good rep with hackintosh builds... Not sure if I will ever use thunderbolt, but given its power and its use in the more popular Macs, it would be nice to be able to plug into someone elses equipment if they happen to use it... This motherboard also has a good combination of USB 3 and audio/video outputs, just incase I need them (eSATA I intend to get from a front media panel).

Ideally Id like to find a good front panel fan controller that can manually turn fans off as well as monitor temps. Then I may consider installing some case fans...

[CA_Steve]

The baseline noise of the Raven's case fans is 18-19dBA. You'd be better off with a stock 84W i7 and a Scythe Kotetsu cooler than with a degraded S part and the no-fan. More performance if you need it and you won't hear the Scythe's fan over the baseline noise. Also worth noting is the new Fractal Design Define R5. It'll take you down into the 14-15dBA range for baseline.

soundcard: yep, still don't get it. Is this for monitoring? Why not get an external DAC/amp combo? I'd never spend $250 on an analog card inside a PC.

[jamesgalb]

The baseline noise of the Raven's case fans is 18-19dBA. You'd be better off with a stock 84W i7 and a Scythe Kotetsu cooler than with a degraded S part and the no-fan. More performance if you need it and you won't hear the Scythe's fan over the baseline noise. Also worth noting is the new Fractal Design Define R5. It'll take you down into the 14-15dBA range for baseline.

soundcard: yep, still don't get it. Is this for monitoring? Why not get an external DAC/amp combo? I'd never spend $250 on an analog card inside a PC.

I actually intended to remove the Ravens case fans to go 100% passive and silent (unless I can find a fan control that allows me to manually turn them off). I am expecting with the ravens good ventilation at the top (and all around really), and the spacing between heating components, that I should be okay... this is why im going with a 65w processor.

Sound card really isnt needed, but im kind of at the "why not? $1500 already, whats another $300 for the absolute best sound card on the market with good inputs/outputs for the PC"... That said... If all things were the same, and a DAC/amp combo of equal quality costs just as much, what would your reasons for avoiding an internal option be? (outside of mobility).

[CA_Steve]

I actually intended to remove the Ravens case fans to go 100% passive and silent (unless I can find a fan control that allows me to manually turn them off). I am expecting with the ravens good ventilation at the top (and all around really), and the spacing between heating components, that I should be okay... this is why im going with a 65w processor.

ok. I understand the premise.

Sound card really isnt needed, but im kind of at the "why not? $1500 already, whats another $300 for the absolute best sound card on the market with good inputs/outputs for the PC"

<shrugs> There's a limit to the performance of any sound card inside a PC. It's just a crappy RF environment for audio. At some point in the $'s spent, it's just lipstick on the pig and if I wanted to blow $300 on PC audio, I'd spend it outside of the PC.

[jamesgalb]

<shrugs> There's a limit to the performance of any sound card inside a PC. It's just a crappy RF environment for audio. At some point in the $'s spent, it's just lipstick on the pig and if I wanted to blow $300 on PC audio, I'd spend it outside of the PC.

What is limiting an internal cards performance? And what makes it a crappy RF environment for audio? Im honestly curious as im far from an expert.

[MikeC]

What is limiting an internal cards performance? And what makes it a crappy RF environment for audio? Im honestly curious as im far from an expert.

Direct connection to motherboard means the soundcard is exposed to noise from the board, other components connected to the motherboard, and even the PSU. Plus the RF energy inside the computer; there is some, and it's much lower outside the case. The best isolation (from noise, etc) for a sound card comes via optical cables. There's no possibility of noise leakage there. That is the big advantage of connecting an external DAC via Toslink vs USB -- the latter is exposed to whatever else is going on in the USB line.

[jamesgalb]

What is limiting an internal cards performance? And what makes it a crappy RF environment for audio? Im honestly curious as im far from an expert.

Direct connection to motherboard means the soundcard is exposed to noise from the board, other components connected to the motherboard, and even the PSU. Plus the RF energy inside the computer; there is some, and it's much lower outside the case. The best isolation (from noise, etc) for a sound card comes via optical cables. There's no possibility of noise leakage there. That is the big advantage of connecting an external DAC via Toslink vs USB -- the latter is exposed to whatever else is going on in the USB line.

So wouldn't the motherboards onboard sound be subject to the same RF distortion as a sound card?

I would assume that the existence of an input and output for optical cables on the sound card would allow for better recording or transferring of music to the computer, correct? Again, I am no expert. This PC is for the girlfriend who wants to start her own studio in her spare room, so im clueless on the music stuff at the end of the day

[MikeC]

So wouldn't the motherboards onboard sound be subject to the same RF distortion as a sound card?

I would assume that the existence of an input and output for optical cables on the sound card would allow for better recording or transferring of music to the computer, correct? Again, I am no expert. This PC is for the girlfriend who wants to start her own studio in her spare room, so im clueless on the music stuff at the end of the day

Yes. Sound quality conscious recording or playback folks don't use onboard sound cards.

[CA_Steve]

Yes. Sound quality conscious recording or playback folks don't use onboard sound cards.

They use external mixers/sound boards for the analog processing and convert to digital before sending it to the PC. The PC merely moves digital bits around. A LOT of bits, but just bits. Same for the output path. Digital bits out to an external board and then converted back to analog.

[Abula]

There is a very interesting offering coming from Creative soon, rumors place it before christmas.... a little expenisve but seems the best that they have done. SoundBlaster X7

[useful_idiot]

Cool thread and a passive DAW is an interesting idea with unique challenges. Your component list is a great start and needs just a bit of tweaking. Also i have some notes.

-Ram, be sure the ram is standard height or it wont clear the NoFan.
-Case, you need to go out of your way to find a case whose top is wide open. Since you are relying on convection the more mesh or ports up top the better. My build thread has 2 suggestions for you.
-Def go with the 4790k, its a beast.
-Audiocard. You can have alot of fun with onboard sound or even some of the big box store cards but for professional quality audio I would suggest you just go straight to an external box. Anything from Apogee is high end stuff.
-Trial and error is part of the process so yeah a couple bucks may get wasted somewhere but ITS FOR SCIENCE!
-dont forget to post some pics when its all together.