Do you think I will be able to cool this gaming build passiv

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rsilent6
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Do you think I will be able to cool this gaming build passiv

Post by rsilent6 » Sun Aug 02, 2015 8:58 am

Ok hi guys I have done dozens of hours of research on silent computing because I find it fascinating. I am aware that the general opinion is that fanless for gaming is a no no but have a look at this and tell me if I am in for disappointment.

CPU: Intel core i3 4160T (35w TDP)
GPU: The fanless Gtx 750 Ti (I think the brand is Palit KalmX)(60w TDP)
Case: The case marketed as the NoFan CS-60 with lots of ventilation (originally sold as IN-WIN)
Motherboard: Will probably be Micro-Atx but can maybe do mini-itx is less heat is needed.
PSU: PicoPsu 160w
CPU cooler: Either Zalman FX-70 or NoFan CR-80

So the cpu and gpu are both quite cool running and the case has ventilation out of the top and sides, do you think a case fan will still be necessary.

I obviously know that it's so much more practical to get a practically silent PC with a couple of very quiet case fans but at this point I'm doing this as an obsession/project rather than being sensible. Thanks.

CA_Steve
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Re: Do you think I will be able to cool this gaming build pa

Post by CA_Steve » Sun Aug 02, 2015 10:11 am

Welcome to SPCR.

So, are you planning to game with this PC? If so, what's your monitor resolution and proposed games? Might be better to see if the CPU/GPU will do what you want it to do before you worry about cooling/passive build.
1080p Gaming build: i5-4670K, Mugen 4, Asrock Z97 Anniversary, MSI GTX 1660 Gaming X, 8GB 1866 RAM, Samsung 860 Evo 500GB, Crucial MX100 256GB, WD Red 2TB, Samsung DVD burner, Fractal Define R4, Antec True Quiet 140 (2 front + rear) case fans, Seasonic SSR-550FX. 35W idle, 45-55W video streaming, 170-200W WoW, 318W stress test (Prime95 + Furmark)

rsilent6
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Re: Do you think I will be able to cool this gaming build pa

Post by rsilent6 » Sun Aug 02, 2015 10:30 am

I probably won't be doing a huge amount of gaming but when I do it will be Battlefield Bad Company 2 for a few hours at a time which is an older game, and some other battlefield/cod type games including bf4 on medium settings. Also, CivV and some strategy games probably.

The monitor will probably be 21-24inch and 1920x1080. I am not too concerned with high settings, am more interested in gameplay.

Will also be used for the normal things a lot like web browsing and watching films.

QUIET!
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Re: Do you think I will be able to cool this gaming build pa

Post by QUIET! » Sun Aug 02, 2015 2:24 pm

Most passive components like CPU coolers and fanless GPUs rely on some airflow.

If you have none, you are relying on radiation which isn't enough to deal with 100 watts. That's about the load you will pull while gaming so your PC will turn in to an Easy Bake oven.

If you didn't have a GPU, a heatsink case with heat pipes would handle the i3 but the motherboard VRM would add heat with no easy escape so it will still run pretty warm.

Its always the last one or two fans that create an issue.

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Re: Do you think I will be able to cool this gaming build pa

Post by xan_user » Sun Aug 02, 2015 2:33 pm

It will depend on your ambient room temps.
It might throttle the GPU at high temps/use.
You will run the risk of shortening the life of the system (mainly mobo components).

Most people can't hear an SPCR rec'd 120mm fan at ~500rpm, over their ambient noise floor. There's really no point in going fanless.
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CA_Steve
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Re: Do you think I will be able to cool this gaming build pa

Post by CA_Steve » Sun Aug 02, 2015 8:51 pm

As mentioned, the graphics card *might* throttle without some airflow or run at 55-60C with decent case airflow. Check out the reviews for the KalmX here.

Your CPU/GPU are a good fit for those games...although:
- I'd lean toward the regular i3-4170 just to get the extra speed (3.7 vs 3.1GHz) if needed. You can always set vsync in games to limit the fps and hence lower the CPU/GPU load/power.
- If you stick with the T part, the newer i3-4170T is 100Mhz faster for similar price.
1080p Gaming build: i5-4670K, Mugen 4, Asrock Z97 Anniversary, MSI GTX 1660 Gaming X, 8GB 1866 RAM, Samsung 860 Evo 500GB, Crucial MX100 256GB, WD Red 2TB, Samsung DVD burner, Fractal Define R4, Antec True Quiet 140 (2 front + rear) case fans, Seasonic SSR-550FX. 35W idle, 45-55W video streaming, 170-200W WoW, 318W stress test (Prime95 + Furmark)

rsilent6
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Re: Do you think I will be able to cool this gaming build pa

Post by rsilent6 » Mon Aug 03, 2015 1:09 am

Ok so it seems like I have to admit defeat. I think I will get one or possibly two noctua case fans and a fan controller so it is silent for normal use and I can turn the fan on for some air flow whilst playing games. And I therefore may as well get the non T version of the cpu. The thing is that to me 100w of TDP doesn't sound like an awful lot to dissipate, especially living in a cool country. Also, quietpc is a company that sells fanless passive prebuilt pcs and they seem to have excellent reviews, and include graphics cards.

The other thing is that whilst all the forums says that passive cooling is not possible, most of the posts are at least 3 years old, so I thought technology may have come along enough for it to be possible in 2015.

Pappnaas
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Re: Do you think I will be able to cool this gaming build pa

Post by Pappnaas » Mon Aug 03, 2015 4:14 am

rsilent6 wrote: The other thing is that whilst all the forums says that passive cooling is not possible, most of the posts are at least 3 years old, so I thought technology may have come along enough for it to be possible in 2015.
No one said it is not possible, but it has some caveats and it will cost you a lot more for a little gain. And as long as you don't want to do excessive gaming, passive cooling is fairly easy.

CA_Steve
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Re: Do you think I will be able to cool this gaming build pa

Post by CA_Steve » Mon Aug 03, 2015 7:03 am

Won't need a fan controller - just use the mobo's controls. Asrock then MSI for best UEFI based fan control, Asus for s/w based. Set up a fan profile for minimum rpm until temps go high. Chances are, you won't need much more fan rotational speed to keep this little bit of heat in check.
1080p Gaming build: i5-4670K, Mugen 4, Asrock Z97 Anniversary, MSI GTX 1660 Gaming X, 8GB 1866 RAM, Samsung 860 Evo 500GB, Crucial MX100 256GB, WD Red 2TB, Samsung DVD burner, Fractal Define R4, Antec True Quiet 140 (2 front + rear) case fans, Seasonic SSR-550FX. 35W idle, 45-55W video streaming, 170-200W WoW, 318W stress test (Prime95 + Furmark)

rsilent6
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Re: Do you think I will be able to cool this gaming build pa

Post by rsilent6 » Mon Aug 03, 2015 9:54 am

Pappnaas wrote:
No one said it is not possible, but it has some caveats and it will cost you a lot more for a little gain. And as long as you don't want to do excessive gaming, passive cooling is fairly easy.
Do you think the passive build I suggested will work, and if not do you have any suggestions for making it work for the games I intend to play? Thanks

rsilent6
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Re: Do you think I will be able to cool this gaming build pa

Post by rsilent6 » Mon Aug 03, 2015 9:56 am

CA_Steve wrote:Won't need a fan controller - just use the mobo's controls. Asrock then MSI for best UEFI based fan control, Asus for s/w based. Set up a fan profile for minimum rpm until temps go high. Chances are, you won't need much more fan rotational speed to keep this little bit of heat in check.
Ok thanks I won't get a fan controller.

destiriser
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Post by destiriser » Fri Aug 07, 2015 7:38 am

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rsilent6
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Re: Do you think I will be able to cool this gaming build pa

Post by rsilent6 » Fri Aug 07, 2015 12:37 pm

destiriser wrote:You'd be better off with an integrated gpu and a newish processor than this low end nvidia. You could cool it passively easily. Integrated GPUs are only slightly worse than these low end cards

Or you could buy a high end gpu (the highest number you can, if prices of new stuff are too big, just buy an older one, used) and use this semi passively or with quiet fans. You could make your own "fan stopper", it's just cutting the voltage by few degrees and attaching normally. Much more hassle, but you'd have a high end gpu. I didn't do that myself, but I believe it's completely viable, because I can turn off a fan in the same way in my machine, it just needs a custom plug so that you can plug that to normal pwm slot and so it works automatically.

Both solutions would be much cheaper since all the gear you listed is expensive.
Yeah I was thinking of getting the AMD A8-7600 and no discrete gpu. Am also thinking about getting the Broadwell i5 5675c which is 65w and has the Iris pro 6200 graphics. Obviously that would be much more expensive but would be an investment (considering how slow cpu improvements are nowadays) so will be very usable for the next 5 years in whatever pc setup I have going. But there aren't a lot of reviews out for Broadwell it seems to have been forgotten about already.

destiriser
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Post by destiriser » Fri Aug 07, 2015 12:52 pm

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rsilent6
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Re: Do you think I will be able to cool this gaming build pa

Post by rsilent6 » Fri Aug 07, 2015 1:19 pm

destiriser wrote:Iris 6200 is a competitor to gt 740 according to my trusted review site. I'm disappointed to be honest, but I'm sticking with Intel for two reasons: gpu drivers on linux are good, and AMD has a bad reputation because of them and it uses less power, I didn't test it, but that could make it a no go in my fanless rig. If you care about games I'd go for apu, it's better in terms of graphics (you could say Broadwell is better, nah it's not, firstly, it costs multiple of apu and second, zen will kill it) and bang for the buck. About the power usage, I believe APUs on zen architecture may be very good in this area since they will be 14nm or 16nk as I remember, that's a huge jump and it can very well be as efficient as Intel. AMD also works on the linux drivers (because steam machines kind of forced them, not that they'd do it for no reason), so it's interesting.

Broadwell might be a 5 year investment in terms of cpu, but not gpu, it will be really slow in 5 years. And if you want fanless, this processor will be really power hungry in comparison with processors made in 2020, it's not necessarily bad, it's like with laptops or smartphones, these devices get outdated faster because they have some compromises.

If you care about gaming, I'd go for apu or skylake i3 (slower gpu than Broadwell, ive heard 40%, but no tests yet) or like I said some high end dedicated card.
The Broadwell graphics seem to be twice as good as any current AMD apu, and zen won't be available for at least a year (but I am hoping it will live up to the hype). Skylake graphics don't seem to be a much better alternative than haswell hd 4600 graphics. So the way I see it my options are either Broadwell, haswell i3 + gtx 750ti or AMD A8-7600. Why do you say that AMD apu graphics are better than intel iris?
Also, if I was really serious about gaming I wouldn't be trying to go passive lol :) What are you getting/what do you have?

destiriser
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Post by destiriser » Fri Aug 07, 2015 1:53 pm

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rsilent6
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Re: Do you think I will be able to cool this gaming build pa

Post by rsilent6 » Fri Aug 07, 2015 2:25 pm

destiriser wrote:Check the tests in games here: http://pclab.pl/art64766-6.html

Broadwell was released after the apu was, that give Intel some more time to improve and an advantage. Plus apu is in 28nm (I think) and Broadwell is 14nm. Plus Broadwell uses much more space on the die for the gpu and has Cache l4. Price is a big factor too. The advantage of Broadwell over apu isn't that big meanwhile - 6 fps in GTA V in HD, but only 0.2 fps in full hd, 80 vs 106 fps in CS GO.

I have ivy bridge i3 3245 with Intel hd 4000 cooled with Akasa euler s case, plug 8gb ram, Intel 730 ssd, hp 60w PSU, gigabyte thin mini itx mobo. It's great. I'll be upgrading the cpu in it often, yearly or bi yearly. I buy used so I'm a bit behind, but it's worth it since I paid 500 bucks for a complete system with 27" fullhd screen and good mouse and mechanical keyboard if I'm not mistaken. I'll skip Broadwell unless they release i3s with 6200 GPUs.

BTW media are raving about how skylake is a big step forward, but ignore the fact one generation was skipped and performance income of skylake vs haswell is... equal to 2 previous generations, so business as usual (no progress), the same progress as with ivy bridge or haswell. They really play marketing well here. Just look at the GPUs. Previous logic was first number of the gpu model is bigger by one every generation. Haswell had HD graphics 4600 and iris 5200. Broadwell had 6200 and skylake? It has series 5 again, so one step back. The performance of these things seems to prove it so far (that it's similar to haswell iris). Skylake is a real disappointment and Broadwell wouldn't be one if the price wasn't raised.

A table showing the progress per generation in cpu heavy applications: http://pclab.pl/art65154-38.html
Sandy to haswell is 8.2% progress, haswell to skylake - 6.5%.
Same thing in games: http://pclab.pl/art65154-37.html

I'm personally not too sad though, it will only make me spend less on computers, cpu prices are steady at high degrees, GPUs last longer. Less electronic waste.
Thanks for posting that link. I'm extremely surprised to see that the battlefield 4 benchmark is the same for the i5 broadwell and AMD apu. Makes it seem pointless to buy the i5.

destiriser
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Post by destiriser » Fri Aug 07, 2015 2:41 pm

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