Silent Micro-ATX Build

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Andy9999
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Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2015 3:58 am

Silent Micro-ATX Build

Post by Andy9999 » Thu Dec 17, 2020 6:04 am

Hi!

Am currently thinking about replacing a Zotac-531U unit that worked very well for the past 5 years running non-stop and being very energy efficient (10-30 watts only). It runs 3 VMs and has 2x500GB Sata SSD (Raid1) in it. The Zotac has 2 network ports, but we only use 1 at the moment.

Unfortunately Zotac does not offer a comparable, more up-to-date system at the moment.

1. So far I have been considering either getting an Asrock A300 and slapping a AMD 4650g or AMD 4750g in it (Noctua NH-L9a-AM4
CPU cooler), along with 2 NVme 1TB each and re-using the old SSD Sata drives for some additional storage. This would either be a 7x (4650g) or 9x (4750g) faster CPU disk I/O should be considerably faster as well with the NVme drives. It has a 120W external brick. However, it would most likely not be a good choice for further (cheap) storage expansion (most likely only SSD due to temps and only 2 SSD drives max). To add another network port I would have to get some USB3 adapter, because there is no PCI/Express slot.

2. The other idea I had on mind would be to get something like a Fractal Design Define Mini C along with a micro ATX board and a fan-less PSU and one of the same AMD CPUs. I looked at the Seasonic fan-less platinum rated PSUs (400W-500W). I could not find any fan-less PSUs with lower wattage, being platinum rated. Do they perform well if only 100 watts max are actually used? Would a PSU with a fan be a better choice? The advantage of this build would be extensibility in regards of (cheap) storage or adding a PCI Express network adapter at a later time. Would this be silent as well and be close to the energy efficiency of the Zotac unit? It would probably cost 100-200 Euro more compared with the Asrock A300 build. Could I add some 5400RPM drives to it at a later time without adding too much noise and affecting it negatively thermal wise?

Any thoughts are welcome! :)

Andy9999

Japanese Capacitor
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Re: Silent Micro-ATX Build

Post by Japanese Capacitor » Fri Dec 18, 2020 5:26 am

Tell, what for will be your computer (web browsing etc).

If we talk about building one (imo only way if we talk about something quiet as possible and matching best anybodys needs), I have few thoughts:

Define Mini C is a great case in terms of balance of airflow and sound dampening, but I would consider Define C and Define 7 Compact. If I remember well (check it yourself), Define C differs just in being few cm higher, so it can store ATX board. ATX boards are just great in terms of amount of connectors, but if you're able to check, so sure that some mATX is and will ever be enough - OK. Beware that mATX seem to be treated not only smaller boards, but also ,,cheaper alternative" to ATX, so they are sometimes worse equipped - worse audio, small amount of connectors (for eg NVMe turns off some SATA) and not always with option of voltage controlling 3-pin fans, which are in Define cases. Define 7 Compact is really similar, but imo worth the extra money - just a little better in few aspects and to me the most important is dust filtering of front - from my experience best and low maintenance as it can be. And imo it's the most beautiful case on the market :>

To me fanless PSUs are overated. The same with coolers and cases. I have similar case to the ones we consider here (regular size Define 7 Black Solid). When I write it, computer is just silent as off. Active PSU (rather louder than silent XFX TS 650W - some SeaSonic inside and they are not champions of silence ), three 140mm case fans 300 rpm, two fans of CPU cooler ~450 rpm and RTX 2070 Super 1000 rpm. I have to put my ear like 20 cm from computer to hear that's something going inside. PSUs are most efficient (power-money saving) during ~50% load of wattage, but they will perform well any of it will be used - just less efficient. Are you sure that you need Platinum certified? That's good idea in high power builds like rendering or mining stations, when you will see savings on electrcity bills. If Platinum and quiet I would go with be quiet! Straight Power 11 Platinum or Fractal Desing Ion. Both starts with ~550W. Matching low power build with high efficiency PSU rather won't give you any savings. If Gold also can be, you don't need anything more that Bitfenix Formula Gold or Whisper - before 80% load they run 500 rpm, so in silenced case it will rather be inaudible. Whisper is longer producer warranty (7 years), bigger fan (not a big deal) and modular. If you want high-end of Golds and maybe quietest active PSU - Corsair RMx. It adds semi-passive mode and 10-year producer warranty.

Silent Zone is No HDD Zone ;) You prefer noise, but cheaper (HDD) or no noise for not so much more expensive (SSD).

CA_Steve
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Re: Silent Micro-ATX Build

Post by CA_Steve » Fri Dec 18, 2020 3:52 pm

What are your primary goals?
- footprint?
- power use?
- performance upgrade of x over current build?
- fanless? quiet?

Here's a thread that has a few useful comparisons. I really like the performance/watt of the AMD 4xxxU series. Asus is just one of a couple of vendors putting it in a NUC-like form factor. Only 1 NIC, but it's easy to add a USB/LAN port. And, you'd get much lower idle power than going with an ATX PSU based build.

Andy9999
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Re: Silent Micro-ATX Build

Post by Andy9999 » Fri Dec 18, 2020 11:45 pm

Seems like I confused the Asrock A300 with the X300. Just mentioning it in case someones read this considering a similar CPU. The A300 requires a BIOS upgrade, before it can run these newer CPUs! The X300 supports them right out of the box.
Japanese Capacitor wrote:
Fri Dec 18, 2020 5:26 am
Tell, what for will be your computer (web browsing etc).

If we talk about building one (imo only way if we talk about something quiet as possible and matching best anybodys needs), I have few thoughts:

Define Mini C is a great case in terms of balance of airflow and sound dampening, but I would consider Define C and Define 7 Compact. If I remember well (check it yourself), Define C differs just in being few cm higher, so it can store ATX board. ATX boards are just great in terms of amount of connectors, but if you're able to check, so sure that some mATX is and will ever be enough - OK. Beware that mATX seem to be treated not only smaller boards, but also ,,cheaper alternative" to ATX, so they are sometimes worse equipped - worse audio, small amount of connectors (for eg NVMe turns off some SATA) and not always with option of voltage controlling 3-pin fans, which are in Define cases. Define 7 Compact is really similar, but imo worth the extra money - just a little better in few aspects and to me the most important is dust filtering of front - from my experience best and low maintenance as it can be. And imo it's the most beautiful case on the market :>

To me fanless PSUs are overated. The same with coolers and cases. I have similar case to the ones we consider here (regular size Define 7 Black Solid). When I write it, computer is just silent as off. Active PSU (rather louder than silent XFX TS 650W - some SeaSonic inside and they are not champions of silence ), three 140mm case fans 300 rpm, two fans of CPU cooler ~450 rpm and RTX 2070 Super 1000 rpm. I have to put my ear like 20 cm from computer to hear that's something going inside. PSUs are most efficient (power-money saving) during ~50% load of wattage, but they will perform well any of it will be used - just less efficient. Are you sure that you need Platinum certified? That's good idea in high power builds like rendering or mining stations, when you will see savings on electrcity bills. If Platinum and quiet I would go with be quiet! Straight Power 11 Platinum or Fractal Desing Ion. Both starts with ~550W. Matching low power build with high efficiency PSU rather won't give you any savings. If Gold also can be, you don't need anything more that Bitfenix Formula Gold or Whisper - before 80% load they run 500 rpm, so in silenced case it will rather be inaudible. Whisper is longer producer warranty (7 years), bigger fan (not a big deal) and modular. If you want high-end of Golds and maybe quietest active PSU - Corsair RMx. It adds semi-passive mode and 10-year producer warranty.

Silent Zone is No HDD Zone ;) You prefer noise, but cheaper (HDD) or no noise for not so much more expensive (SSD).
Thank you for the suggestions! It will be running 24/7 and host 3 VMs. Eventually I will add one or two VMs (an Asterisk VOIP system would be cool for example or a VDR VM for TV). Currently the Zotac has only 16GB of RAM (completely in use) and is mostly running 60-80% CPU load. In idle it uses around 10 watt and under full load 30 watt. So some more power would be great. I also plan to put some more data on it, like a MP3 library for example.

I already have one "normal" Fractal Define R5 for my main computer. :) Another PC (for development) is living in a Fractal Design Define R6 EATX. Would be great to get another one of these, all having the same dust filters for easy maintenance. I mistakenly assumed the Mini had a removable dust filter for the front intake like the others do. Will check out the Define 7 Compact!

I will think again about the PSU to use. I later realized that the current version of the Fractal Design Mini has a PSU cage and I read somewhere it is not a good idea to use a fanless PSU, because it limits air flow to the PSU. So I considered the Fractal ION 550 instead, which you also mentioned. I will check out the golden ones you mentioned, that will maybe allow me to save a few bucks. :)

Initially I wanted Samsung SSD's (1TB EVO Plus), but the seller I wanted to buy them from doesn't have them on stock at the moment. Then I saw these new Sabrent Rocket ones and they look promising. However, for the initial build I will probably just use the two existing 500GB Sata SSDs of the Zotac and later buy the NVMe's in a month or so. Same with HDDs. Maybe I will add a RAID1 of some 5400 RPM drives later as well.
CA_Steve wrote:
Fri Dec 18, 2020 3:52 pm
What are your primary goals?
- footprint?
- power use?
- performance upgrade of x over current build?
- fanless? quiet?

Here's a thread that has a few useful comparisons. I really like the performance/watt of the AMD 4xxxU series. Asus is just one of a couple of vendors putting it in a NUC-like form factor. Only 1 NIC, but it's easy to add a USB/LAN port. And, you'd get much lower idle power than going with an ATX PSU based build.
The space available for the system would be sufficient for even a normal sized Mid-Tower. However, I would prefer a smaller one if possible. It does not have to be as small as the Asrock or Zotac box. The Fractal Design Mini for example, would be a good compromise.

Power wise, it should be low power of course. :) Am used to the 10-30 Watt the Zotac box is drawing, running 3 VMs. I don't know if that is achievable and if it draws around 30-60 Watt it would be OK too.

Performance should be improved, the 4750g would be almost 9-10 times faster and a 4650g around 6-7 times than the Zotac box. This will give me some room to add more VMs and add more functionality.

It should be quiet. There is usually no one, directly near this build.It should be silent/not noticeable at a distance of 3-5 meters.

Will check out the thread you referenced. Thank you.
Last edited by Andy9999 on Sat Dec 19, 2020 12:02 am, edited 2 times in total.

Andy9999
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2015 3:58 am

Re: Silent Micro-ATX Build

Post by Andy9999 » Fri Dec 18, 2020 11:57 pm

.

Japanese Capacitor
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Re: Silent Micro-ATX Build

Post by Japanese Capacitor » Sat Dec 19, 2020 3:40 am

I reccomend you finding formula of calculating cost of power draw according to PSU efficiency and your electricity agreement's costs. My point was, your load is so low, that you rather wouldn't see the noticable difference in bills comparing the same config with Gold and Platinum PSU. It would be best, if you calculate yourself and know, what you pay for. Fast example of proportions without such calculations: let's say, that during 100W load effciency of PSU is 87% - PSU takes from the wall 100W + 13W (100%-87%). That 13W is wasted and transofrmed into heat. One grade higher certified PSUs mostly will be then ~3% more efficient, so the waste during that load will be 10%-10W. I don't know your electricity costs, but in your case suspect it to be not noticable savings, but more like ideological eco-friendly difference. Being eco is always positive, but you know.

If we talk about computer running 24/7, from my recomendations I would go premium way. Bitfenixs are just great, quiet and reliable PSUs for typical use computers - webbrowsing or gaming. I wouln't reccomend anything more for such a computer and need for 550W or lower - cost of high-end in this wattage is unporporcional to what you get better and just unnocticable in daily use (very good componets and results in tests vs even better, inaudible vs more inaudible, long enought to trust warranty vs even longer warranty). But for 24/7, even with such a low load, I would go with something semi-passive and top notch-quality. 24/7 maybe for a long period of time, so less worrying about fan and components being degradeted over time (long warranty ofc, but you don't want to use it). With your load RMx or Ion+ will work passive. Don't worry about fan not helping - I reccomend you great PSUs and they are designed to work like that. The heat will escape thru back grills itself. Ion+ 560W doesn't turn on its fan until 300W load, with RMx 550W it's similar (don't remember numbers, but you can download brochure from Corsair's site or check some reviews). Straight Powers are overpriced (as most bq! PSUs), don't have semi-passive mode and in this price range 5-year warranty is a bad joke. But except of that they're great, really quiet Platinum PSUs and that's why I reccomended them. There's now really short availability of great, popular PSUs, so if you'll meet such a problem, you can also consider SeaSonics Focus: GX and Platinum PX. Bentleys of PSUs, semi-passive, 10-year warranty, but not so quiet after crossing 60% load (with your computer it will never happen).

Define 7 Compact is really pricey compared to Define C and Mini C and the differences aren't big, but I would pay that extra only for mentioned different front filtering. I have experience with rather all types of cases and filters: mesh fronts, closed fronts, metal mesh ,,filters", foam filters (like Meshify C) and legit filters (Define cases). There's nothing better than closed front (noise absorbtion) with legit filter on intake grills. Just clean both grills with vacuum cleaner every week or two and that's all - you won't need removing front panel more then once a year. With Define C and Mini, you will need to remove the whole front to get to the filter. Maybe it won't be needed and the filter can be cleaned the same way as mentioned with 7C, but I don't know, if will work sufficient. Compact has also better default fan configuration (bigger front fan will do the same on lower speed - quieter), much more USB front ports + Type C and - if I remeber well - more place for SSD's (3 vs 4). It also look just better in terms of quality (eg brushed aluminum front vs plastic), but it's about your personal taste. To me it's better product and worth that extra money, but if you calculate price/what you get ratio, it will loose with Cs. If you don't want to spend too much on a case and computer as quiet as possible isn't concern, you can conisder be quiet! Pure Base 500 - with price/quality ratio it just destroys all of smaller Defines.

Also consider better than stock CPU cooler. You can give a chance the one given, but I don't suspect it behaving too well in terms of temperatures, CPU frequency and noise during 24/7 load. be quiet! Pure Rock 2 and Scythe Kotetsu Mark II are great, affordable, but high quality ones. Ofc you can pay more for something stronger and even quieter, but I'm not sure, that it wil make a difference with your CPU. Better options are be quiet! Shadow Rock 3 and quietest active air cooler available - Scythe Ninja 5. It's always better to use the best thermal paste - Grizzly Kryonaut. Buy it only from big, reputable stores, because there're fakes on the market.

Andy9999
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2015 3:58 am

Re: Silent Micro-ATX Build

Post by Andy9999 » Sat Dec 19, 2020 5:45 am

Japanese Capacitor wrote:
Sat Dec 19, 2020 3:40 am
I reccomend you finding formula of calculating cost of power draw according to PSU efficiency and your electricity agreement's costs. My point was, your load is so low, that you rather wouldn't see the noticable difference in bills comparing the same config with Gold and Platinum PSU. It would be best, if you calculate yourself and know, what you pay for. Fast example of proportions without such calculations: let's say, that during 100W load effciency of PSU is 87% - PSU takes from the wall 100W + 13W (100%-87%). That 13W is wasted and transofrmed into heat. One grade higher certified PSUs mostly will be then ~3% more efficient, so the waste during that load will be 10%-10W. I don't know your electricity costs, but in your case suspect it to be not noticable savings, but more like ideological eco-friendly difference. Being eco is always positive, but you know.

If we talk about computer running 24/7, from my recomendations I would go premium way. Bitfenixs are just great, quiet and reliable PSUs for typical use computers - webbrowsing or gaming. I wouln't reccomend anything more for such a computer and need for 550W or lower - cost of high-end in this wattage is unporporcional to what you get better and just unnocticable in daily use (very good componets and results in tests vs even better, inaudible vs more inaudible, long enought to trust warranty vs even longer warranty). But for 24/7, even with such a low load, I would go with something semi-passive and top notch-quality. 24/7 maybe for a long period of time, so less worrying about fan and components being degradeted over time (long warranty ofc, but you don't want to use it). With your load RMx or Ion+ will work passive. Don't worry about fan not helping - I reccomend you great PSUs and they are designed to work like that. The heat will escape thru back grills itself. Ion+ 560W doesn't turn on its fan until 300W load, with RMx 550W it's similar (don't remember numbers, but you can download brochure from Corsair's site or check some reviews). Straight Powers are overpriced (as most bq! PSUs), don't have semi-passive mode and in this price range 5-year warranty is a bad joke. But except of that they're great, really quiet Platinum PSUs and that's why I reccomended them. There's now really short availability of great, popular PSUs, so if you'll meet such a problem, you can also consider SeaSonics Focus: GX and Platinum PX. Bentleys of PSUs, semi-passive, 10-year warranty, but not so quiet after crossing 60% load (with your computer it will never happen).

Define 7 Compact is really pricey compared to Define C and Mini C and the differences aren't big, but I would pay that extra only for mentioned different front filtering. I have experience with rather all types of cases and filters: mesh fronts, closed fronts, metal mesh ,,filters", foam filters (like Meshify C) and legit filters (Define cases). There's nothing better than closed front (noise absorbtion) with legit filter on intake grills. Just clean both grills with vacuum cleaner every week or two and that's all - you won't need removing front panel more then once a year. With Define C and Mini, you will need to remove the whole front to get to the filter. Maybe it won't be needed and the filter can be cleaned the same way as mentioned with 7C, but I don't know, if will work sufficient. Compact has also better default fan configuration (bigger front fan will do the same on lower speed - quieter), much more USB front ports + Type C and - if I remeber well - more place for SSD's (3 vs 4). It also look just better in terms of quality (eg brushed aluminum front vs plastic), but it's about your personal taste. To me it's better product and worth that extra money, but if you calculate price/what you get ratio, it will loose with Cs. If you don't want to spend too much on a case and computer as quiet as possible isn't concern, you can conisder be quiet! Pure Base 500 - with price/quality ratio it just destroys all of smaller Defines.

Also consider better than stock CPU cooler. You can give a chance the one given, but I don't suspect it behaving too well in terms of temperatures, CPU frequency and noise during 24/7 load. be quiet! Pure Rock 2 and Scythe Kotetsu Mark II are great, affordable, but high quality ones. Ofc you can pay more for something stronger and even quieter, but I'm not sure, that it wil make a difference with your CPU. Better options are be quiet! Shadow Rock 3 and quietest active air cooler available - Scythe Ninja 5. It's always better to use the best thermal paste - Grizzly Kryonaut. Buy it only from big, reputable stores, because there're fakes on the market.
Thanks for the input. :) I will look at what the market has to offer. I can get the Ion+ at a really good price, actually the same price I could get the Corsair RM550x for.

For the CPU cooler I initially thought about a "Noctua NH-L9a-AM4". Will look at the ones you recommended as well.

And for the case, I will change it to Fractal Define Compact just for having the front intake filter.

Japanese Capacitor
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Re: Silent Micro-ATX Build

Post by Japanese Capacitor » Sat Dec 19, 2020 8:12 am

Both PSU are great and should be priced similarly, but RMx is better in terms of peformance and noise. Note that difference is like great vs greater ;) Ion wins rather only in terms of efficiency, but check everything else in case of your needs. Maybe some details like amount of cables will help you choose. If you are still afraid about temperatures of passive working PSU, you can mount them upside down - the hot air will rise also thru fan hole. Corsair reccomends mounting semi-passive RMx with fan on the bottom, but - if I remember well - for example SeaSonic and Asus with some SeaSonic inside upside down.

In cases we consider I wouldn't go with low-profile cooler like that Noctua. That's good for ITX builds only, where you just don't have place for standard tower cooler. Decent tower cooler will perform better - bigger heatsink, less job for fan. If we talk about tower, I wouldn't even go with Noctua, because in that category they are only NH-D15 and that slim one for Threadrippers (remember Noctua model names...). Rest is overpriced - other brands will give you the same or even better for less money. I wouldn't consider any other brands than be quiet! and Scythe - high quality, efficient, but quietest. The models I mentioned, but there're also two nice other options: Scythe Mugen 5 rev. B as alternative to Shadow Rock 3 and Scythe Fuma 2 only if you plan to overclock your CPU and want to pay more for best possible noise performance after that.

Good choice with Compact. I recommend option without window - it will be quieter. Bitumic on that wall make the biggest job. But if you want window, another quality difference over Define C is that, Compact has window made of glass, C plastic ( kinda 2014 and really easy to scratch).

EDIT: I'm not sure that, you understand me well. Define C and Mini C have front filters. The difference is, they are under front panel and you have to remove that panel to get to filter.

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