MicroATX Socket-P motherboard?

[batka]

Hey there folks!
Nice discussions indeed!

I'm in the same situation as in ex.treme and wywywywy.....

Thinking about to build a PC used 24/7, for net browsing, and for HTPC usage, (definitely no gaming).
So for sure, one of the most important factor is the low power consumption, especially in idle. Maybe would be good to draw around 50W from the wall (without monitor)...

At first, I've thought I could use some MicroATX or even MiniITX motherboard which do support mobile processors (for example Socket P Core 2 Duo Mobile), and which have mobile chipsets.

Code: Select all

I have noticed the following boards so far, as example (not only Socket P and MicroATX):
- Asus - N4L-VM DH ( microATX, Socket 479, 945GM ICH7M mobile chipset, no DVI, there is SPDIF)
- Gigabyte GC-220 (miniITX, Integrated Socket 479 Celeron, but the chipset is not mobile, 945GC, no DVI)
- Gigabyte GC-23 (miniITX, integrated Atom, but the chipset is not mobile, 945GC, no DVI)
- Gigabyte GA-8I945GMMFY-RH (microATX, Socket M, 945GM ICH7M mobile chipset, no DVI, SPDIF out not clear)
- MSI GM45 Speedster (microATX, Socket P, GM45 ICH9M mobile chipset, 3 LAN, no DVI, no SPDIF)
- Aopen i915GMm-N (microATX, Socket 479, 915GM ICH6M mobile chipset, no DVI, SPDIF not clear)
- Aopen i945GCt-DN (miniITX, Atom proc, 945GC ICH7 not mobile chip, no DVI, There is SPDIF)
- Aopen i45GMt-HD (miniITX, Socket P - Penryn, GM45 ICH9M mobile chipset, there is DVI and SPDIF, no old PCI)
- Aopen i965GMt-LA (miniITX, Socket P - Merom, GM965 ICH8M mobile chipset, there is DVI and SPDIF)
- DFI-ACP SR330-L (microATX, Celeron M500 support, GLE960 ICH8M mobile chipset, there is DVI and SPDIF)
- DFI-ACP SR330-N (microATX, Socket P??, GME965 ICH8M mobile chipset, there is DVI and SPDIF)

But reading all these threads, I see now opinions about that these new processors only draw a little power, for example Core 2 Duo E8200 draws 2.5 W in idle. If this is true then it seems it's not really much worth to make in Socket P mobile processor way...

The question, is it worth to going with these kinds of MicroATX or miniITX boards, from power consumption perpective at all? Or the "normal" ATX boards, with non-mobile CPU socket, and non-mobile chipset, doesn't draw that much larger power? I read here at SPCR that a P35 chipset consumes 5.9 W at idle, and ICH9 draws 4W. And there are the other integrated chips, PCI slots, USBs ect.

Is there any significant power difference, which worth the trouble and minimalist features with microATX boards. I also read some opinions that some problem can occur with mounting the cooling system for the non-always standard mobile CPU sockets...

I read that ex.treme also choosed a normal (altough MicroATX format) mobo Gigabyte EG31MF-S2, and he gets 54 W at idle, i think that's not bad.

What are your opinions folks?
wywywywy, what did you choose?

Thanks!

[jessekopelman]

Is there any significant power difference, which worth the trouble and minimalist features with microATX boards.

No. The only reason to want to use a mobile processor in desktop setup is that the mobile processors are rated for 15 degrees or more higher temperature. This means it is easier to get away with a very small CPU cooler, which may in turn allow you to use a very small case and still have a relatively powerful CPU. If case size is not your biggest consideration, there is really no reason to worry about mobile on desktop.

[wywywywy]

Hi wywywywy,

I'm also in a similar situation as you, thinking about to build a low power PC, and I wonder is it worth to go with motherboard with mobile processor and mobile chipset.....

What was your final choice?
We can discuss it in this thread:
viewtopic.php?t=50954&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Thanks
batka

Hi,

I still really like MoDT solutions, but the only problem is the availability and price of the Penryn boards and processors. So for now I will stick with my T7200 etc. Luckily with the things I do (I don't game) I don't need too much processing power, so my current setups are sufficient (except I need to upgrade the T2400 of one of the PCs to T7200 asap).

So instead of processor/motherboard, I have switched my focus to storage. I upgraded my main desktop and secondary desktop Velociraptors, which made them much smoother to use. And I bought WD GreenPower for the server to cut down noise/electricity.

If you are buying a new PC, I wouldn't bother with Penryn for now unless you can find something cheap on eBay etc.

Also there doesn't seem to be a meaningful difference in power consumption between boards of different form factors. The contributor is the chipset.

Hope it helps.

[ex.treme]

Hallo again!

If you don't play games, you can save money for lower consumption.
But is there problem find mb for good price. But over 200$ isn't good price for me.

I'm alone interested how much w you can save with penryn mb.
I guess isn't more than 10w at idle.
My system( don't forget i have also micro Atx board) have 54w with extra graphics, 45w with integrated X3100 at idle.
Mb with Penryn - you can do it 35w ?

[batka]

Hi All again!

Thanks really all of you for your answers, much appreciated! I definitely don't play games, and size of the case isn't matter either, so I can apply normal size coolers to the CPU.
I agree, the little power consumption difference simply doesn't worth the extra money and the troubles, so I'll go with some normal ATX board then.

Thanks for your answers, it helps a lot!

Have a nice new year!

[darkbane]

First of all, hi and happy new year to everyone.

I was reading your posts, and I HAD TO REGISTER to SPCR forums just to give a word of warning to people seeking to continue their MODT use.. Don't listen to people babbling about desktop chips being as power efficent as their mobile counterparts.. it is simply NOT TRUE.

I build a system out of an undervolted E5200 and it sucks up more than 45W at idle.. versus the 28W my T5600 / Aopen 945GM.. whats nearly HALF than the desktop counterpart.

...and I'm alble to run the T5600 FANLESS (with an older Zalman 7700 with no fan) even at 100% load while this is simply not possible with the E5200 and the same cooler.

So please, before speaking by urban legends, try to do some real world test.
I did so, at my own expense (I bought the e5200 just to demistify people telling me to go that way) and while it is surely cheaper, it is in NO WAY a replacement for a proper MODT setup.

I'm more than happy to clarify and post details if someone's interested

Bye and happy new year to everyone!

[wywywywy]

You can run T5600 fanless? :O
My T5600 with a Swiftech MCX478 and a 1800rpm 80mm fan tops 60C idle! (On Aopen 945GM too by the way)

And yes please post details. I am very interested in how you achieve 28w and fanless. So would you please post details on case, case fans, PSU, etc. Because I would obviously want to make my HTPC quieter and lower consumption too.

My HTPC has these and runs at about 60W idle last time I check.
T5600
Aopen i945GMm-HL
8500GT fanless
Hauppauge Nova-T PCI
Hauppauge Nova-T USB
3.5" SATA HDD
Full size DVD drive
80mm CPU fan, 90mm + 60mm case fans
Antec Phantom 500 PSU
USB keyboard + mouse, and two remote control receivers

Thanks. And a happy new year!

[batka]

Hi darkbane!

Thanks for jumping in to the conversation, no problem with that, we all need to know clearly the things, so it's nice to discuss it, we definitely don't want to make urban legends. The folks here just said their experiences, and I think there is not much opposite, I think the differences are hidden in the details.

In my opinion when talking about power consumption, we need clearly state about the followings because all of them are sum up when we think about total power:
- the processor
- the chipset of the MOTHERBOARD
- and if the are any significant additional devices

So as wywywywy said, maybe you could post your both setup. Maybe when you had 45W at idle, you also had a different motherboard...

[darkbane]

Hi
I didn't want to sound rude, but trust me, I've heard so many incorrect stuff (myths,legends,strange beliefs) that it makes me wonder how people can report back about stuff they don't even know first-hand and talk like if they do know for real.

My setup follows. First, here are the common components:

1) Hard disk: Maxtor Momentus 5400.3 160Gb (it is a 2.5" notebook drive, used mainly for the OS and the Web and FTP served stuff)

2) Mini-box PW200-M PSU (www.mini-box.com for details):This takes a 12V input and converts it to ATX power.

3) Pioneer slot-in loading notebook dvd drive (don't remember the exact model, sorry, but most of the time it is idling)

4) 2x512Mb DDR2 modules to achieve dual channel (2 sodimm in the MODT setup and 2 dimm in the regular setup)

5) Integrated video in both scenarios

6) Windows XP SP3 and RMClock to lower the voltage at the minimum stable or allowed

7) Highpoint RocketRaid 2300 Raid controller

4x Western Digital WD1000FYPS 1Tb drives in Raid5 config. (These drive are Green Power models and go IDLE after not being utilized for 20mins or so, all the measurements were made with the Raid array in spin-down, since its power requirements are not the point of this research. Nevertheless, the disks and the array were left in the system because they're the NAS part of my setup)

9) Lastly, there ARE fans in all truth in my setups,but using SpeedFan they're configured to spin up only if the cpu goes beyond 65°C (NEVER HAPPENED, not even in summer and 100% cpu load) and if the Disk array goes beyond 50°C (Happened, but we're not discussing this)

The MODT setup:

1) Mobo: Aopen i945GMm-HL 945GM and ICH7. (sadly, Aopen now makes only ITX MODT boards, and those are TOO small to actually be useful. On this Aopen board you can mount a regular desktop cooler and since those are rated for 100+W cpus, it is easy to go fanless),latest bios (2007.. wish they'd update it)

2) CPU: Intel T5600 Merom 2-M, B2 stepping, 2x1.83Ghz cores, 667Mhz bus. 0.95V at 6X multiplier, 1.1V at 11X.

Power measured at the outlet:28W. Power measured on the 12V (PW200M) input line: 2.03A (=24.5W). This is the REAL system power requirement, not counting PSU inefficency.

The measurement were made on an average load of 30%, with the server giving off files on the lan from its primary (2,5") disk, serving web pages, with some FTP connection,VNC and so on.

The E5200 Setup. Same components as the above setup except for:

1) Motherboard: Foxconn G31MG-S G31 chipset, integrated video but sadly no DVI or HDMI output (Same used in the TomsHW test), latest bios.

2) CPU: E5200 M0 Stepping, 2x 2.5Ghz , 800Mhz bus (couldn't find any lower cpu), downclocked to 667Mhz bus to achieve 2.1Ghz to better compare the two systems.

Same software setup, same workload when measuring power consumption of course.

Power at wall jack: 48W, 3.57A on the 12V line = 43W This is the REAL system power requirement, not counting PSU inefficency.

You can see with ease that the E5200 requires nearly double the power of the T5600 setup. (I need to point out that IMHO this is nearly all chipset fault, since of course the Foxcon board uses a newer, desktop chipset while the Aopen is using a lower power mobile, and older chipset)

Apart from the abovementioned Raid controller, needed 'cause no micro-ATX board that I know of has 6 SATA ports (remember? 4xWD1000FYPS, 1x Momentus 5400.3, 1x DVD-Rom = 6 Sata units)
I don't use ANY other expansion board, because those are often very power hungry, especially if we're talking video cards.

The integrated video of the above boards is more than enough to display 1280x720 video at full screen with perfect results.

I've been a bit long on this post, but I hope all the details are in

That said, I'm also looking forward to upgrade my system in the future, using a M-ATX board.. if I ever find the right one!

My dream one would have:
965 mobile chipset
6x sata ports
Socket P, possibly with LV and ULV cpu support.
That would rock, since I would also throw away the Raid controller (And go with CIPRICO's sw Raid) and would allow me to use newer and lower power cpus..

Bye everyone!
D.

[darkbane]

@wywywywy:

If you can get off with your internal TV card (the USB one is fine because it can draw a maximum of 2.5W), Geforce video card (and switch to integrated video)
and exchange your 3.5" hdd and full-size DVD for notebook counterparts
you'll see you have a much lower power consumption.

In fact.. why you're using the GF8400 in the first place? I also use my system as an HTPC and the integrated video is more than enough to drive my beamer without any glitch..

Bye!

[wywywywy]

Thanks for posting the details. So the differences are mostly down to the gfx card, and the different way of measuring (I include the PSU inefficiency as well) then.

But it seems like my T5600 runs a lot hotter than yours. I really need to double check to make sure the heatsink is sitting correctly.

As for my gfx card, no I cannot do without it, because I need dual display (TV + projector), and I also need hardware HD decoding and GMA950 doesn't support it. The T5600 isn't fast enough for 1080p soft decoding in many cases. The 8500GT is the lowest consumption gfx card that fits my requirements at the time.

I do have a spare 100GB 2.5" HDD which I have been planning to use... just been a bit lazy really. Reinstalling Vista and resetting up VMC etc takes quite a while. Or if I can find another Velociraptor cheap then I may use that.

Again, thanks for the info!

[fwki]

My server MoDT setup (see sig) uses T5500 fanless, idles in the upper 20's C loads to the low 60's C. I run undervolted, filtered case fans for positive pressure (dust control) and to vent heat away from hdd's. Speedstep is enabled in BIOS and undervolts to 0.9 & 6x automatically without RMclock. I don't spin down the HDD's but I keep the floppy, IDE DVD and unused ports all disabled in BIOS...dual channel RAM and integrated graphics. I'm looking at the killawatt right now at even 60 watts...which is typical. Now I guess I could ditch the positve pressure, knock a few watts off with not-so-green GP drives, drop to single channel RAM and maybe I would get to 55 watts. If my PSU is at 60% efficiency at idle, the best psu on earth not-yet-invented wouldn't get this system below 33 watts at the wall.

I've followed threads in these and other forums watching folks attempt to build useful sub-30 watt systems and it ain't happening. One poster in the WHS forum really got close, but the system was weak with low storage. So let's be real careful about spending big dollars chasing ghosts.

Edit: clarify temp in first sentence.

[Cistron]

I hope this won't be totally frowned upon (I come in peace):

Specialist applications and systems aside, I was pondering about the usefullness of a MoDT. What are a few watts in relationship to their full blown desktop-brethen, if the whole thing costs a multiple, but barely saves as much energy as switching off a light-bulb?

[jessekopelman]

I hope this won't be totally frowned upon (I come in peace):

Specialist applications and systems aside, I was pondering about the usefullness of a MoDT. What are a few watts in relationship to their full blown desktop-brethen, if the whole thing costs a multiple, but barely saves as much energy as switching off a light-bulb?

Maybe go back and read this thread and others about MoDT? AFAIC the only point of MoDT is the higher heat tolerance which means it is easier to squeeze things into a tiny case. For some people that is worth a large price premium.

[fwki]

I agree. My server was a fun project, but had I gone desktop, a cpu upgrade would make sense for me, but T7400 is $$$, so no way.

[darkbane]

@Cistron:

MODT.. why?

Because a pc that consumes little power can run on a battery, in places where the poweline is unreliable or there's no poweline at all.

Because less noise is a concern for people who has to put a pc in his bedroom (where's trying to sleep) or next to his home theater, where noise is annoying

Because some people do care about a greener planet, and consuming half of the energy a regular home server would means huge CO2 savings.. not mentioning the bill.

Because a pc with passive cooling will never fill with dust, nor will have fans that will fail, and so is inherently way more reliable.

..is this enough?
Ignoring other people concerns does not mean that those matters don't exist..

[darkbane]

@fwki:

The test system of Tomshardware, a plain desktop mobo with a desktop cpu idled at 31w, inefficent psu included..
..so sorry, but not a lot of effort is needed to go below 30w, and in fact I have it running in my home:

Gigabit ethernet, 160Gb hdd (I could go up to 500Gb with no effort at all), web serving, ftp serving, samba serving, print serving, running torrent, emule, streaming mp3, deconding videos for my home theater.
Is this enough for LESS than 30w?

I hope you've read my previous post... a sub-30w is not only possible, but it is sitting in my home since 2007.

bye

[fwki]

darkbane,

...all the measurements were made with the Raid array in spin-down, since its power requirements are not the point of this research. D.

I consider storage as the primary part of the server, so that's why I report system wattage including active storage at idle. You have a very efficient system, but add a few TB's of storage to make it useful, and you're above 30w.

[ex.treme]

I was reading your posts, and I HAD TO REGISTER to SPCR forums just to give a word of warning to people seeking to continue their MODT use.. Don't listen to people babbling about desktop chips being as power efficent as their mobile counterparts.. it is simply NOT TRUE.

I build a system out of an undervolted E5200 and it sucks up more than 45W at idle.. versus the 28W my T5600 / Aopen 945GM.. whats nearly HALF than the desktop counterpart.

...and I'm alble to run the T5600 FANLESS (with an older Zalman 7700 with no fan) even at 100% load while this is simply not possible with the E5200 and the same cooler.

So please, before speaking by urban legends, try to do some real world test.

Man, man, man. King comes, king must say.

Please don't call us somehow like nobies atc...

Mobile platform have too much limitation and isn't for friends price.
That's the way me and maybe others give up for a while buy a Penryn mb.

Because isn't mb like mb. If you don't need extra vga, its lighter find mb,but still expensive.
If yes, than you must searching all the world and pay more extra...$
I had some few mobile platforms in desktop. Starting Dothan+CT479, Dothan + Msi speedster(31w idle), COre Duo + Aopen975xa (50w idle).
I know it about limitation memories, about very loud cpu fan, about bad compatibilty atc.
But still i wanted Penryn + mb. Cpu isn't problem find on ebay for good price. But motherboard is hard to find.
I like just GM45 Speedster and DFI CA230-BF because they have available pciex16 slot for extra video cards. Who will write first review with that mb, i will very much thank to him


But i realized one matter of substance : We talk about penryn mobo ?
So why do you write here about Core Duo (merom) consumption?
http://processorfinder.intel.com/detail ... Spec=SL9SP

Is there one thing i must tell you:

"Live is a question about priority"

[batka]

darkbane,

...all the measurements were made with the Raid array in spin-down, since its power requirements are not the point of this research. D.

I consider storage as the primary part of the server, so that's why I report system wattage including active storage at idle. You have a very efficient system, but add a few TB's of storage to make it useful, and you're above 30w.

Hi fwki,

IMO darkbane said it correctly, the power measurements are better without HDD's, because we're discussing about mainly processor and mobo power consumption in this thread. Of course HDD can be mentioned but just for specifying the exact setup.

[batka]

But i realized one matter of substance : We talk about penryn mobo ?
So why do you write here about Core Duo (merom) consumption?
http://processorfinder.intel.com/detail ... Spec=SL9SP

Hmmm darkbane spoke about both motherboard AND processor too. And it's good that way, both have to be taken into account when calculating power discussions.

[batka]

I've been a bit long on this post, but I hope all the details are in

Thanks for all of your specifications, I see you only use which is minimal, so no extra device, and you use integrated graphics.
It's very promising that so that low power can be done with your stuff.

[batka]

1) Mobo: Aopen i945GMm-HL 945GM and ICH7. (sadly, Aopen now makes only ITX MODT boards, and those are TOO small to actually be useful.

Yes, exactly that I found too, almost every MoDT mobo that I found seems missing something. DVI, or SPDIF, or SATA ports, or enough PCI slots, or whatever. But I think everyone can have different requirements, so everyone should decide whether the features are enough for them.

It seems this low power like 30 W can be achieved, which is very nice. On the other hand I think 45 W is not so bad either (my original idea was going below 50W), so the difference is not so big for some people. Of course the silence and passive cooling option is also matters. And the money and hard-to-find thing will matter as well for some people.

So I think everyone has right here, the point is to discuss ideas and to point out to good configurations.

[batka]

That said, I'm also looking forward to upgrade my system in the future, using a M-ATX board.. if I ever find the right one!

My dream one would have:
965 mobile chipset
6x sata ports
Socket P, possibly with LV and ULV cpu support.

Just some ideas:

DFI-ACP SR330-N is microATX, has GME965 ICH8M chipset, it has integrated DVI and SPDIF, and I'm not sure it has Socket P socket, but for me it seems it's Socket P.
Unfortunately it only have 3 SATA ports.
http://tw.dfi-acp.com/Product/xx_produc ... CT_ID=6198

MSI GM45 Speedster is microATX too, it has Socket P, and it has 4 SATA ports, but not not 965 chipset, but it's GM45 ICH9M chipset. Unfortunately no DVI and no SPDIF.
http://global.msi.eu/index.php?func=pro ... od_no=1628

[darkbane]

Hi

True, we must consider that going the MODT way implies using Mobile chipsets, Mobile CPUs, mobile drives, and often integrated mobile graphics.. so we're saving energy on many fronts here.

I didn't measure energy consumption during the Raid Array activity simply because 98% of the time it is idling and spun down.

I watch roughly 2-3 movies a week, so the array spins for 4-6 hours A WEEK, so 3% of the time at best, not worth even mentioning.

As for everyone seeking to use a MODT setup, I do suggest to try to avoid additional pci cards, gfx cards, try to have enoug ram to avoid swapping but try not to use too much, as ram too is power hungry.
I've already told how my system is set up, and using 2x512 ram modules I've plenty of ram and no swap file.

Every little bit helps

[darkbane]

...using a PicoPsu120, you can power up such a system from a plain old lead acid car battery for one to two full days with no effort... so the result is worth the effort.

There's always research to to, you have to find the most power efficent hdd, dvd, ram, cpu.. is not easy, but in the end, it is rewarding.

[batka]

...using a PicoPsu120, you can power up such a system from a plain old lead acid car battery for one to two full days with no effort... so the result is worth the effort.

And do you use the PicoPsu120 and battery all the time? What is the battery is exhausted?

[darkbane]

@batka
Hi
Actually, I do use a PW200-M, a slightly more powerful version of the PicoPsu120: I upgraded from it when I began using the 4 disk raid array.. it needed more power during spin-up.

The battery is wired in parallel to the 12V input line of the Pico-Psu, (and the 12V line is a little bit overvolted to 12.8V to keep the battery charged, but it is within tolerances).

When there's a power outage, the battery is already on-line so there's no power loss.

A script within speedfan will check the 12V rail and if it dips below 11V it will begin a shutdown of the system to prevent completely draining the battery.

As of now, I'm using a 7Ah gel-lead 'brick' battery, since the outages are frequent, but they last only some minute at a time.
If there's need, you can switch to a bigger battery with no modification (In the past, I had used a 44Ah lead-acid car battery)

Bye!
D.

[Magsy]

[quote="wywywywy"]

Ha... so that was you!!

I was trying to buy the last one from this seller, but as I was trying to make my final decision, the last one was sold! And since then I've been searching forever.

Wanna sell me yours? [/quote
Sorry!

They have many more for sale now and I'd recommend it. Mine has been running 24/7 as a full time Windows 2008 Hyper-V Server with AD/Exchange etc.

I haven't had a single hiccup, CPU sits at 8 degrees celcius and go up to about 20/25 under load. (Its in the attic, ambient 8 degrees c)
The heatsink and fan is pretty small, about a quarter of the weight of a core 2 duo oem cooler with a fan at 2000rpm.

I have the Apoen 945 "whatver its called" Merom board too, it uses a little more power but I have a crappy T5300? in there and its overlocked a bit (2x2ghz). I have a HD 3470 and can decode anything I want, 1080i with VA/MA Deinterlacing is not a problem using VMC and Cyberlink Decoders. It can do 1080 progressive in software and most interlaced content, but some difficult to deinterlace 1080i can make it choke without hardware accell.

darkbane:

I'm loving the PicoPSU and battery idea, exactly what I wanted to do but I wasn't sure it would work. Is there not an issue 'charging' the battery all the time?

[L0n3W0lF]

They have many more for sale now and I'd recommend it. Mine has been running 24/7 as a full time Windows 2008 Hyper-V Server with AD/Exchange etc.

I haven't had a single hiccup, CPU sits at 8 degrees celcius and go up to about 20/25 under load. (Its in the attic, ambient 8 degrees c)
The heatsink and fan is pretty small, about a quarter of the weight of a core 2 duo oem cooler with a fan at 2000rpm.

Do you think it would be possible to use a socket 478 heatsink with that board? Or are you stuck with the one that came with it?