Analog video out on modern AMD mainboards

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xen
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Analog video out on modern AMD mainboards

Post by xen » Fri May 15, 2009 4:44 pm

Back in the days of the 690G, there were at least a couple of boards with on-board video that had component video out. Most notably the Asus M2A-VM HDMI which had a riser card with svideo out and a svideo->component adapter cable, but also the Gigabyte GA-MA69GM-S2H which had a tv-out bracket.

I have been looking at 8200 / 8300 / 780G boards, but I have not found even a single board that sports any kind of video out. Is video out passé? Is it all about hdmi now, and hdmi only?

Are there any recent boards (including 740G) that have video out?

I see that low cost graphics cards still have svideo out and some come with svideo to component adapter cable, but I'm in doubt whether they can display HD resolutions over these cables...

This HDMI hausse is really nice (not), and I guess it's all about HDCP copy protection, and if you want blueray you have no choice, but in the meantime affordable A/V-receivers and older TV sets still require component video or svideo. Me personally I will be forever satisfied with an upscaling dvd player doing 720p over component playing a 5.1 channel sound over my 5.1 surround set. It's insanity to require more. (But that's just my personal set of values ;) - I mean hey, let's divert resources to something more deserving such as education).

Vicotnik
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Post by Vicotnik » Fri May 15, 2009 5:04 pm

HDCP is a non-issue. Honestly - do we really play protected media on our HTPCs? DVI and HDMI are digital. Keeping the signal path digital from start to end is huge. Can you even buy a TV without any digital input anymore?

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Post by xen » Fri May 15, 2009 5:13 pm

Would you say, then, that a 720p image over HDMI/DVI on a digital TV looks so much better than the same image over component?

You now have me reconsidering though (that was easy, wasn't it ;)), if I spend €100 more on my A/V receiver, I get the HDMI switching thingy and be done with it. I will still need analog outputs on my new mainboard though, since I'm not about to buy a new TV just yet.

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Post by Vicotnik » Fri May 15, 2009 5:41 pm

There is a difference in quality most likely, yes. But if the difference is significant or not depends on the viewer and the way the analog setup is done.

When I play a 1080p movie it's 1:1 all the way. Digital source -> digital transfer over cheap cables -> 1080p LCD TV. 1:1 pixel mapping, so not even digital resizing.
So much more simple than DVD (digital) -> conversion to analog -> analog transfer over not so cheap cables -> conversion to digital -> LCD TV that probably does some resizing.

There are lots of cheap discreet graphics cards with analog TV-out. Don't know if they can do HDTV resolutions but I think that at least some of them can.

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Post by xen » Fri May 15, 2009 8:31 pm

Well of course all-digital is simpler, but if going all-digital involves throwing your old equipment away and buying new, then the simplicity is not so relevant.
There are lots of cheap discreet graphics cards with analog TV-out. Don't know if they can do HDTV resolutions but I think that at least some of them can.
Well, that is helpful...

At least the Asus 3450 sports a "HDTV cable". I will ask them about their resolutions on this output.

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Post by Vicotnik » Sat May 16, 2009 1:11 am

xen wrote:Well of course all-digital is simpler, but if going all-digital involves throwing your old equipment away and buying new, then the simplicity is not so relevant.
True, but I got the impression that you thought HDMI only was a way to push HDCP upon the population. :) And it also depends on how much equipment you need. You don't really need a fancy A/V receiver (or I don't anyway), only a computer with DVI or HDMI output, cheap cables and a TV with HDMI input for all-digital on the image side.

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Post by doveman » Sat May 16, 2009 4:38 am

I believe the 4770 cards (or at least some of them) come with the component out dongle. I need this as well for my new build as my TV's only got 1 DVI input, which is already occupied, but a couple of spare component inputs, so it would be good if we could find out which companies include it.

According to their websites, XFX include the HDTV component out lead, Powercolor supply it as an optional extra, Asus support it but don't mention what accessories are included, HiS say their 4770 doesn't support it and Sapphire and Gigabyte don't mention it at all. I used UK websites where I could find them or EU ones if not.

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Post by doveman » Sat May 16, 2009 6:08 am

Oops, jumped in there without realising you were asking about motherboards :oops:

xen
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Post by xen » Sat May 16, 2009 7:32 am

Hi, no worries Doveman, I appreciate your replies. I am currently thinking about buying the Gigabyte GA-MA69GM-S2H that a retailer still has in stock. That should give me the all-in-one IGP solution, with both some HDMI support and also video out.

I noticed that the 3450 cards have DVI-I out! That should be interesting, since DVI-I carries both DVI-Analog and DVI-Digital. It should be possible to convert DVI-Analog to Component using an adapter.
True, but I got the impression that you thought HDMI only was a way to push HDCP upon the population.
I read something of the kind on a vendor's website.
And it also depends on how much equipment you need. You don't really need a fancy A/V receiver (or I don't anyway), only a computer with DVI or HDMI output, cheap cables and a TV with HDMI input for all-digital on the image side.
Well, the reason I want a fancy A/V receiver is that I am looking to replace my stereo amplifyer. Still, should I ever purchase a new TV, it is true that I can feed my DVD hdmi signal and my computer's hdmi signal, straight into the TV. I don't really need a A/V receiver for video switching. It's just more convenient cable wise (in my case). I am not looking to build a HTPC. I want separate solutions to watch video and (especially) listen to music, which is why I want a dvd player. So to me, buying (1) a a/v receiver and (2) a dvdplayer, is a logical choice. The only choice remains is whether to purchase a receiver with or without HDMI. Difference is €100.

And just while I was beginning to close down my choice in a/v receivers, I happened to kill my computer's motherboard (!) by connecting a fan while the system was running (it said POOF). Which means that now i have another choice to make, getting ready for "the future", whatever that future will entail.

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Post by ppl4golf » Mon May 18, 2009 7:54 pm

xen,

Once you get into HD there is no going back. TV out is pretty much obsolete. Heck even component output from HTPC is getting 'obsolete'.

Back in the days, I had both popular Asus mobos with TV out features that I wish I never have 1. M2NPV-VM and 2. M2A-VM-HDMI. I used the TV out module a few times for an old rear-projection TV. It worked well for 480i but the 720p quality over component was quite poor. I think discrete card may be better.

There are other cheap cheap solution for playing back SD content like a HDD media player or just a DivX player - these are the perfect match for old TV. Don't compromise the mobo choice because of the TV.

For your need, get a cheapie mobo like the 740G and add a ATI3450 or ATI4350 low end card is the best route.

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Post by mozartrules » Mon May 18, 2009 8:17 pm

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6813130206

The MSI Diva (above is with 5-channel amp, you can also get it with pre-amp). Has all the outputs you need and 780G should be plenty.

Not inexpensive though, but that is mainly because of the extra audio capabilities.

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Post by xen » Mon May 18, 2009 8:25 pm

I discovered that the Gigabyte S2H board I was thinking to purchase, doesn't support simultaneous output over D-Sub and TV-out. It's either or. It bet this is true of all motherboards, and it is probably true for discrete cards as well. I haven't checked it yet, but the cards that have DVI-I + D-Sub + tv-out probably can only support two displays at a time, being one digital and one analog.

So what it comes down to is that I have to get a discrete card, like you [ppl4golf] said. I don't want to get an older chipset like the 740G. I don't mind spending a buck or two more on my mobo.

There's probably other threads about this choice.

I'm thinking of doing either 8200 + 8400GS, or 790GX + 3450/4350, currently inclined to take the former. Should I eventually upgrade my TV (which I'm planning to do sooner or later), I can take the discrete card out again and still be left with a decent chipset in terms of HD support and/or gaming performance. 8200 probably uses less power and has better HD support, while 790GX is better for gaming, which I rarely do.

According to this chart I found, 8400GS uses 7W idle / 9W load. 4350 uses 5W idle / 15W load. 3450 11W / 22W. Choice seems to be between 8400GS and 4350.

xen
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Post by xen » Tue May 19, 2009 4:10 pm

mozartrules wrote:http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6813130206

The MSI Diva (above is with 5-channel amp, you can also get it with pre-amp). Has all the outputs you need and 780G should be plenty.

Not inexpensive though, but that is mainly because of the extra audio capabilities.
Looks like an ideal board if you want to integrate your whole 5.1 setup into your HTPC, with digital audio from the TV being your only external input. To me it looks like I'd sacrafice too much flexibility. At present, I prefer listening to audio through my dedicated CD player. I still have a fancy for using physical discs. Perhaps it's because my pc still makes too much noise, I dunno.

I killed my motherboard the other day when I was removing a Fanmate 2 fancontroller while the system was running. When I tried to reconnect the fan, I shortcircuited two pins on the motherboard and the motherboard said POOF ;D. It really wasn't that loud a system. The computer I'm working on now is much louder. That's why it's such a bliss when I turn it off. Heaven!

I'm not averse to the idea of a HTPC but I would want it to be completely silent and operable without having to turn the TV on. Like a Squeezebox, I guess. I'm just quite inexperienced with all those new digital mediaplayer devices.

Question: HTPC's like the Antec Fusion Remote feature a built-in LCD display, IR-receiver and remote. I bet there are also such displays that you can integrate into your 5.25" bay. Are there also external displays/devices that you can connect to USB, and which perform the same function? Ie. an external interface device supported by software for interfacing with your pc.

And also: Is there any 8200 board you would recommend (from a silent perspective)?

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Post by xen » Wed May 27, 2009 6:18 pm

It seems my plan to use onboard video for my primary display, and the TV-out on the discrete card as the secondary display, will not come to fruition.

The motherbord I have in mind, the GigaByte GA-MA78GM-UD2H, only allows "Surround View" support from the BIOS when "Init Display First" is set to the discrete card. IGP is then slave to the VGA. You can then reverse this relationship within the operating system, but then you won't have a visual output on your primary, until the drivers are loaded.

My only hope now is that the 4350 cards support dual analog output (both D-Sub and TV-out). I won't be using the IGP at all then.

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Post by Max_s » Fri Jul 24, 2009 1:41 am

xen wrote: The motherbord I have in mind, the GigaByte GA-MA78GM-UD2H.
There are a couple of boards from Gigabyte, which look pretty much the same. what is the difference for example between GA-MA78GM-UD2H and GA-MA78GM-S2H?

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Post by Shamgar » Fri Jul 24, 2009 3:59 am

Max_s wrote:
xen wrote: The motherbord I have in mind, the GigaByte GA-MA78GM-UD2H.
There are a couple of boards from Gigabyte, which look pretty much the same. what is the difference for example between GA-MA78GM-UD2H and GA-MA78GM-S2H?
GA-MA78GM-S2H was their original 780G/SB700 platform motherboard, which got a few revisions through its life to improve the weak chipset cooling. Newer revisions also updated phases from 3+1 to 4+1 for improved stability. The S denotes the use of Solid Capacitors, but not all solid capacitors as it still uses mostly old cheap electrolytic ones.

GA-MA78GM-UD2H is an updated version of the former, retaining the same chipset platform, but manufactured with Gigabyte's Ultra Durable 3 process, made up of all solid capacitors, improved and more efficient mosfets and VRMS, and its main selling point, a layer of copper on PCB. The UD abbreviation denotes the use of Ultra Durable 3. This model also includes Dolby Home Theater capability, not found on GA-MA78GM-S2H.

GA-MA78GPM-UD2H is same as above board, except it has 128MB SidePort Memory onboard which helps out with its integrated video capability. With this, you shouldn't need to let motherboard "steal" system RAM, as 128MB is enough for desktop use. However for HD video purposes, you may need more, perhaps 256-512MB total.

There is usually only twenty or so dollars difference between the boards, depending on retailers in your country. The SidePort version adds a significant premium onto the base price, so if you don't need that, i.e. you have enough system RAM and happy to let board "steal" some, then the GA-MA78GM-UD2H is better value than the first board.

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