Upgrade Path from a Brisbane 3600+

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Maelwys
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Upgrade Path from a Brisbane 3600+

Post by Maelwys » Thu Apr 01, 2010 7:53 am

I did some searching through the forums but wasn't able to find a clear answer to the following:

What is the best CPU upgrade path from a Brisbane 3600+ for a low power HTPC?

Some details: my HTPC is running a passively cooled 3600+ on an Asus M2A-VM HDMI board (AMD 690G) using the IGP (X1250). The whole system is running 24/7 off a 120W Pico-PSU so low power consumption is a priority. It's a true HTPC too - its only purpose is to record and play video and audio (running GBPVR on Win XP SP3) and to play streaming media off the internet (Netflix movies). Current power consumption at idle is ~70W, at full load ~100W.

I've been looking at new CPUs because I will be upgrading to HD in the near future and I'm concerned that the 3600+ and the X1250 graphics over HDMI won't cut it. I don't want to rebuild the whole machine though, so I'm sticking to AM2/AM2+ for the time being. My thoughts are to buy a passively cooled discrete graphics card (likely an HD 5450) and upgrade the CPU to one of the following:

x2 5050e (45w TDP)
x3 8450e (65w TDP)
x4 9450 (65w TDP)

Of the three, the 5050e is the most attractive option - dropping TDP while increasing power would be great. This might give me the extra headroom I need to add discrete video. I welcome thoughts and opinions on the above, as well as on other options that I haven't listed. I've also already discovered that finding one of the above is going to be a challenge, so a more available option would be welcome.

Thanks!

Big Pimp Daddy
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Post by Big Pimp Daddy » Thu Apr 01, 2010 8:17 am

Just so you know, with a BIOS update that board supports AM3 CPUs as well, not that AM3 really has anything to offer for your requirements.

Personally I would go for a Sempron, saving power and money, and a 5450.

Maelwys
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Post by Maelwys » Thu Apr 01, 2010 9:26 am

Interesting about AM3 - the Asus website only lists AM2/AM2+ CPUs in the qualified list so I didn't even bother to research further. There are a few 45W and 65W AM3 cores, so it might be worth looking into.

As for the Semprons, as near as I can tell from piecing together performance results, the only one that would beat my current Brisbane would be the Sempron 140, which may be viable if AM3 is a go.

vortex222
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Post by vortex222 » Thu Apr 01, 2010 9:49 am

that is the identical system to my htpc pretty much, except I run an x2 4000 brisban! that cpu will overclock like mad while still lowering the vcore much below stock, i could push mine to 2.4ghz at 1.15v easy, i could probibly run the vcore lower even. As of now im running the cpu at 2ghz at 1.025 volts.

The best upgrade i did to that tho was to add an ATI 5450 for cheap. It solved all my playback issues, including bluray, and it added just a few watts power consumption.

My next upgrade has been perhaps an AthlonII 250, to run underclocked and undervolted to 1v like my current cpu. It will work with the latest bios. I am not sure what clockrate i will get it to run, but im hoping for at least 2.4ghz which would make for a decent performance increase when ripping movies or MP3's.

Big Pimp Daddy
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Post by Big Pimp Daddy » Thu Apr 01, 2010 12:13 pm

Yeah I upgraded a friend's M2A-VM HDMI system a while ago, and after some googling found that it would take AM3 CPUs unofficially (up to 95W I think), I put a low end quad in it and it's fine with the latest BIOS.

The Sempron 140 seems pretty good, I've got one in my server which doesn't see much load so I can't really speak for its speed. The only real data I can give you on it is that it idles at 32 degrees with a cheapo fanless heatsink, so it can't be drawing much power.

Maelwys
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Post by Maelwys » Fri Apr 02, 2010 5:01 am

Vortex: Thanks for the information. It sounds like the video board has taken over much of the heavy lifting from playback, so that upgrade might give the most bang for the buck. Perhaps I don't need to worry about the CPU at all, which would be great.

I only wish that the 5450 had a legacy port or dongle that came with it so I could use S-Video to support my old TV until I buy the new one. Unfortunately though, I have to wait on that upgrade and do everything at once.

BPD: I did some further research and am finding conflicting tales about being able to run an AM3 chip on the M2A-VM HDMI. Some say they've done it and it worked, and others say they've tried it and it didn't. The chip is cheap enough that I may just get one to try - I'll post results if I go that route.

Mats
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Re: Upgrade Path from a Brisbane 3600+

Post by Mats » Thu Apr 08, 2010 8:01 am

Maelwys wrote:I've been looking at new CPUs because I will be upgrading to HD in the near future and I'm concerned that the 3600+ and the X1250 graphics over HDMI won't cut it.
Given that you want to keep the board for now, the AM3 support is inofficial and questionable, and that idle power consumption for AM3 CPU's in older boards usually is a bit higher,
shouldn't you begin with getting the graphics card only?

I mean, isn't that enough for your needs? You can't fail with trying, you can always get a better CPU later.

ilovejedd
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Post by ilovejedd » Thu Apr 08, 2010 8:31 am

You don't really need a new processor, you just need a new graphics card (at least purely for HD playback). If an Atom can do it (paired with decent graphics, of course), then so can your Athlon X2 3600+.

Just curious, is the Brisbane you have really that much of a power hog? Pretty sure the move to 65nm lowered power consumption significantly from Windsor. Have you tried undervolting your CPU?

By the way, I've got a desktop with AMD Sempron 3200+ 1.8GHz and paired with a GeForce 8500GT, it handles 1080p H.264 in MKV just fine. Haven't tried Blu-ray on it, though.

Maelwys
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Post by Maelwys » Sat Apr 17, 2010 7:57 pm

Just a quick update to this:

First, I know I don't technically *need* to upgrade the CPU, but to be honest, I spend money on computer parts all the time - need is really just another way of saying 'really really want'. :)

Second, Asus released a Beta BIOS that adds official AM3 support to the M2A-VM HDMI. Awesome.

Third, while the 3600+ is likely enough, another goal was to drop voltage and/or wattage without sacrificing power. I picked up a Sempron 140 for $20 on eBay, dropped it in, and it has been running without a hitch. I'll test power usage on it over the next few days.

I know the video is the next step, but while I'm on SD, there's no real reason to go there yet, especially since the new cards don't have S-Video any longer.

Thanks to all for the help - I'll post voltages tomorrow.

Maelwys
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Post by Maelwys » Sun Apr 18, 2010 12:16 pm

As promised, some numbers. The Sempron 140 is passively cooled with a Scythe Mini. There is one 120mm 800 RPM Gentle Typhoon fan as the exhaust for the entire system. Power supply is an older 200W PicoPSU modded to for use with a Dell brick. CPU Voltage set in BIOS. Temps recorded using Speedfan 4.40. CPU load test performed using S&M 1.91.

Stock settings (1.37V):
Idle: 53W, 34C
Load: 75W, 45C

Undervolt #1 (1.2V):
Idle: 46W, 30C
Load: 61W, 34C

Undervolt #2 (1.10V):
Idle: 44W, 29C
Load: 58W, 34C

Max Undervolt (1.00V):
Idle: 42W, 29C
Load: 53W, 33C

This is my first experience with undervolting, so if anything above doesn't make sense, let me know. I'm pretty pleased with the results - even with only a slight undervolt, the drop in power consumption is relatively significant. My next question is how to reduce power consumption even further without impacting usability, perhaps by using only 2 memory modules, swapping the DVD-RW out for something else, or replacing my ancient Hauppage PVR-250 with a newer one.

loimlo
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Post by loimlo » Mon Apr 19, 2010 12:48 am

It seems your Hauppage PVR-250 indeed draws a bit of power given a high efficiency Pico and WD Green in your system. I've managed to reduce power consumption of my system to 43W, with components comprised of one 7200RPM 250G HD and a standard ATX PSU.

croddie
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Re: Upgrade Path from a Brisbane 3600+

Post by croddie » Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:22 am

Maelwys wrote:I did some searching through the forums but wasn't able to find a clear answer to the following:

What is the best CPU upgrade path from a Brisbane 3600+ for a low power HTPC?

Some details: my HTPC is running a passively cooled 3600+ on an Asus M2A-VM HDMI board (AMD 690G) using the IGP (X1250). The whole system is running 24/7 off a 120W Pico-PSU so low power consumption is a priority. It's a true HTPC too - its only purpose is to record and play video and audio (running GBPVR on Win XP SP3) and to play streaming media off the internet (Netflix movies). Current power consumption at idle is ~70W, at full load ~100W.
That's a lot of power for a low-performance machine. I would sell and build again, or if you don't like building, buy from someone here or buy a Dell Zino or something.
I've been looking at new CPUs because I will be upgrading to HD in the near future and I'm concerned that the 3600+ and the X1250 graphics over HDMI won't cut it. I don't want to rebuild the whole machine though, so I'm sticking to AM2/AM2+ for the time being. My thoughts are to buy a passively cooled discrete graphics card (likely an HD 5450) and upgrade the CPU to one of the following:
You'll have even more power consumption with a discrete card and it may be too much for your psu.
I would upgrade to a system with integrated graphics that are good enough.

ntavlas
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Post by ntavlas » Wed Apr 21, 2010 10:24 am

This is a great improvement in idle power use by changing the cpu alone, even with the slightly less efficient 200 watt power supply (compared to the pico that is).

I was wondering, is the semptron k8 or k10 based? I was thinking of doing something similar to my htpc which is also am2. I`m looking to do some light gaming so I would prefer a k10 cpu.

ilovejedd
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Post by ilovejedd » Wed Apr 21, 2010 10:45 am

ntavlas wrote:This is a great improvement in idle power use by changing the cpu alone, even with the slightly less efficient 200 watt power supply (compared to the pico that is).
I thought he was using a Pico?

Pretty amazed with the drop in power consumption, even at stock. Alas, I've been spoiled by Intel CPU's which seem to use very low power at idle even without undervolting.

ntavlas
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Post by ntavlas » Wed Apr 21, 2010 10:51 am

There isn`t a 200 watt pico psu AFAIK so it sounded like a PW 200 to me. I could be wrong though, maybe he does indeed use a modded pico with a beefed up power connector to handle 200 watts?

loimlo
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Post by loimlo » Wed Apr 21, 2010 10:56 am

ntavlas wrote:This is a great improvement in idle power use by changing the cpu alone, even with the slightly less efficient 200 watt power supply (compared to the pico that is).

I was wondering, is the semptron k8 or k10 based? I was thinking of doing something similar to my htpc which is also am2. I`m looking to do some light gaming so I would prefer a k10 cpu.
Sempron 140 is K10-based CPU. That said, you're better off purchasing a dual cores cpu even though you may only demand casual gaming.

Maelwys
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Post by Maelwys » Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:19 pm

It's a K10-based CPU, socket AM3. Since the machine will do no gaming, the single core is likely sufficient for my needs.

You're also right ntavlas, it's a PW-200-V, so technically not a PicoPSU, but along the same lines with 95%+ efficiency. Apologies if the naming confused anyone:

http://www.mini-box.com/s.nl/it.A/id.301/.f

This weekend I'm going to test power consumption of components in the machine to see if I can get into the 30W range and still meet requirements. I'm particularly interested in the draw off the Hauppage card, but replacing it may not provide any benefit.

ilovejedd
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Post by ilovejedd » Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:31 pm

Just wondering, do you actually save power by going with the Sempron 140? Isn't it just an Athlon II X2 Regor with one core disabled?

Granted, it's almost half the price of a Regor which is of benefit for those building uber budget builds...

Maelwys
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Post by Maelwys » Sun May 02, 2010 1:50 pm

Just a quick follow-up of power consumption measures for components in the machine. My hand was slightly forced by my cable provider who decided that I really needed set-top boxes for all tuners just to complicate my life. That required I get an IR blaster, so I bought a Hauppauge HVR-2250 instead. Some numbers as before. Load tests were performed using a CPU stress test; I didn't go so far as to test the TV capture cards under recording/playback load or to test my DVD-RW under burning/playback load.

Current configuration:
Idle 42W, Load 53W

Removed PVR-250:
Idle 33W, Load 45W

Removed PVR-250 + 2 DDR2 Modules
Idle 32W, Load 43W

Removed PVR-250 + 2 DDR2 Modules + DVD-RW
Idle 31W, Load 43W

Installed HVR-2250
Idle 34W, Load 47W

So in summary:
The Hauppauge PVR-250 (PCI) uses 8-9W at all times.
The Hauppauge HVR-2250 (PCI-e) uses 3-4W at all times.
DDR2 memory modules consume almost nothing at idle but about 1W each under load.
A DVD-RW uses 1W of power when sitting there.

So it's only a few watts, but moving to the PCI-e based HVR seems to work better than I thought. This brings my idle power consumption to under 40W which is right where I wanted to be. Of course, adding discrete video will change things, but for now, I'm happy with the tweaks.

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