MSI hi-c vs ultradurable

dan · Post by **dan** » Mon Apr 26, 2010 10:51 am

MSI advertises hi-c cap, and charges a huge premium for them, claiming higher heat tolerance than solid state capacities.

One implication is that fans can be slower and heat higher, resulting in quieter motherboards due to higher temp tolerance.

If hi-c capacities are so good why hasn't ASUS and Gigabyte adopted them, and is it better to go with MSi hi-c capacities or gigabyte ultradurable ?

MSI trinergy and gigabyte both claim ferrite choke and superior mosfets.

gigabyte claims 20z copper, msi hi-c.

instead of overclocking, why not run at stock and let temps go higher with slower fan speed

both motherboards over $200

lodestar · Post by **lodestar** » Mon Apr 26, 2010 1:04 pm

I wouldn't say they charge a huge premium for them. The MSI Big Bang-Trinergy for example seems to be equivalent in spec and price to other premium P55 boards. It has perhaps somewhat better included sound than most of them because of the separate card supplied. I guess only gamers would need the multiple graphics card slots, and relative to the cost of fitting two or three 5870s/Fermis the price of the motherboard does not seem that extravagant to me.

frostedflakes · Post by **frostedflakes** » Mon Apr 26, 2010 1:31 pm

Tantalum caps are expensive, and the temperature stability probably isn't important enough to justify the cost. I'm sure you'll be happy with either board, MSI and Gigabyte both make great products.

ntavlas · Post by **ntavlas** » Mon Apr 26, 2010 1:44 pm

Well, ceramic capacitors do have a much longer lifetime compared to electrolytic , are more resistant to heat and have better electrical properties.

They are oftern used in high end gpus and embedded systems where space and cooling are limited.

In an atx setup I don`t think the area around the cpu socket gets hot enough to warrant the use of ceramic caps. On the other hand, their good electrical properties might come in handy when overclocking.

edit: I do have the impression that hi-c caps are ceramic instead of tantalum. Even if I`m wrong, tantalum caps are also superior compared to electrolytic.

dan · Post by **dan** » Mon Apr 26, 2010 9:00 pm

lodestar wrote:I wouldn't say they charge a huge premium for them. The MSI Big Bang-Trinergy for example seems to be equivalent in spec and price to other premium P55 boards. It has perhaps somewhat better included sound than most of them because of the separate card supplied. I guess only gamers would need the multiple graphics card slots, and relative to the cost of fitting two or three 5870s/Fermis the price of the motherboard does not seem that extravagant to me.

frostedflakes wrote:Tantalum caps are expensive, and the temperature stability probably isn't important enough to justify the cost. I'm sure you'll be happy with either board, MSI and Gigabyte both make great products.

ntavlas wrote:Well, ceramic capacitors do have a much longer lifetime compared to electrolytic , are more resistant to heat and have better electrical properties.

They are oftern used in high end gpus and embedded systems where space and cooling are limited.

In an atx setup I don`t think the area around the cpu socket gets hot enough to warrant the use of ceramic caps. On the other hand, their good electrical properties might come in handy when overclocking.

edit: I do have the impression that hi-c caps are ceramic instead of tantalum. Even if I`m wrong, tantalum caps are also superior compared to electrolytic.

newegg chages $300+ for one Big Bang MSI, around $150 for Gigabyte ultradurable,

instead of overclocking how about slower fan speeds for quieter operations at stock voltage and speed? Still at $300+ there might be better getting a $200 motherboard and spend $100 on water cooling or other quiet components.

ntavlas · Post by **ntavlas** » Mon Apr 26, 2010 9:54 pm

I don`t think the temperature of the caps will be a problem if you lower fan speeds. In a modern motherboard the most likely bottleneck will be the northbridge, so investing in a heatpipe northbridge cooler would be a much better option.

Not to mention that all those features on high end boards draw additional power. A more sensible mainstream motherboard will help to keep heat dissipation low. Entry level models by Msi are particularly good in this regard.

dan · Post by **dan** » Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:18 pm

ntavlas wrote:I don`t think the temperature of the caps will be a problem if you lower fan speeds. In a modern motherboard the most likely bottleneck will be the northbridge, so investing in a heatpipe northbridge cooler would be a much better option.

Not to mention that all those features on high end boards draw additional power. A more sensible mainstream motherboard will help to keep heat dissipation low. Entry level models by Msi are particularly good in this regard.

ok, any reason MSI and not say ASUS or Gigabyte?
Gigabyte claims that its ultradurable 3 is "up to 50C cooler"

most motherboards I've seen sold today high end (over $150) seem to use heatpipe cooler?

lodestar · Post by **lodestar** » Tue Apr 27, 2010 3:07 pm

dan wrote:most motherboards I've seen sold today high end (over $150) seem to use heatpipe cooler?

Yes, so certainly no need to pay for or fit additional motherboard cooling, and some of the more elaborate heat pipe arrangements that come with the high-end P55 boards partly justify the price premium. MSI for example have an 8mm heat pipe which they call SuperPipe and is fitted to models such as the Big Bang-Trinergy. Thanks to developments like this chipset fans are now completely a thing of the past. But it does seem a bit of a contradiction - a Big Bang which is totally silent.

dan · Post by **dan** » Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:13 pm

lodestar wrote:
dan wrote:most motherboards I've seen sold today high end (over $150) seem to use heatpipe cooler?
Yes, so certainly no need to pay for or fit additional motherboard cooling, and some of the more elaborate heat pipe arrangements that come with the high-end P55 boards partly justify the price premium. MSI for example have an 8mm heat pipe which they call SuperPipe and is fitted to models such as the Big Bang-Trinergy. Thanks to developments like this chipset fans are now completely a thing of the past. But it does seem a bit of a contradiction - a Big Bang which is totally silent.

Superpipe huh? I thought heatpipe is a heatpipe is a heatpipe. I infer then the wider the diameter the better the performance.

lodestar · Post by **lodestar** » Wed Apr 28, 2010 5:47 am

Yes, according to MSI "....SuperPipe is the world's thickest heatpipe used on motherboards which improves the heat dissipation and delivers the best cooling performance....". They claim it's quite a big improvement in cooling efficiency, such as traditional heatpipe 100%, SuperPipe 190%. But then a big heatpipe also needs bigger heatsinks....

dan · Post by **dan** » Wed Apr 28, 2010 6:23 am

lodestar wrote:Yes, according to MSI "....SuperPipe is the world's thickest heatpipe used on motherboards which improves the heat dissipation and delivers the best cooling performance....". They claim it's quite a big improvement in cooling efficiency, such as traditional heatpipe 100%, SuperPipe 190%. But then a big heatpipe also needs bigger heatsinks....

how does this compare with with gigabyte ultradurable 3 use of 2 oz copper, lower ferrite chokes, and lower heat output pwm?

either company (i.e asus, msi, gigabyte) I wish would adopt the other (superpipe, tantalum hi-c caps, 2oz copper, ferrite chokes, etc)

what does asus use?

swivelguy2 · Post by **swivelguy2** » Wed Apr 28, 2010 6:34 am

These high-end motherboards all pretty much use the same components. The difference that you're observing is just in what buzzwords they use to advertise their stuff. It's definitely not worth worry about. Pick a motherboard from a reputable manufacturer (which Gigabyte, Asus, and MSI all are) that has the features and compatibility you want.

~El~Jefe~ · Post by **~El~Jefe~** » Wed Apr 28, 2010 12:58 pm

I have seen MSI boards that are superior in build and components to Gigabyte and ASUS boards at the high end.

150 does not get you high end ASUS or Gigabyte high end. I would look into the MSI a bit more and compare things more microscopically.

My favorie board was a 939 AMD board that had a vacuum tube amp in a 5 1/4 bay. aside from having swank and LOOKS! it was also built like a tank.

normally MSI is iffy stuff if not at the max level, then I think it is superior to most other than DFI. DFI does rigorous OC testing and has a more clear list of recommended ram for eah board.

A standard Ultra-durable seems like it is fine and dandy all the same.

better grade ceramic Mosfets and capacitors are worth it. At some point, the heat of the chips on the board degrade faster than caps and mosfets, so a huge heatpipe might be good?

swaaye · Post by **swaaye** » Fri Apr 30, 2010 3:56 pm

I know people playing with fully functional PC hardware from the '80s that doesn't use anything more fancy than aluminum electrolytic caps.

The mobo manufacturers today just play off of ignorance, FUD and the very annoying defective cap era of '99-03 or so. I wouldn't pay for any of the >$150 mobos unless you need the extra features of the board. Even the cheapie boards are getting partial solid cap treatment these days. Ask yourself how many decades you need your mobo for.

dan · Post by **dan** » Fri Apr 30, 2010 8:06 pm

swaaye wrote:I know people playing with fully functional PC hardware from the '80s that doesn't use anything more fancy than aluminum electrolytic caps.

The mobo manufacturers today just play off of ignorance, FUD and the very annoying defective cap era of '99-03 or so. I wouldn't pay for any of the >$150 mobos unless you need the extra features of the board. Even the cheapie boards are getting partial solid cap treatment these days. Ask yourself how many decades you need your mobo for.

The Silentpc idea is to run fans much slower, and have much higher temps, for more quiet pc. A MOBO that can tolerate high-temps would be desired

If spending more for SSD v.s 3.5 is justified in quest for silence, why not hi-c caps?

I recall the mac cube was passively cooled.

swivelguy2 · Post by **swivelguy2** » Fri Apr 30, 2010 10:22 pm

dan wrote:The Silentpc idea is to run fans much slower, and have much higher temps, for more quiet pc. A MOBO that can tolerate high-temps would be desired

If spending more for SSD v.s 3.5 is justified in quest for silence, why not hi-c caps?

Because capacitors don't make noise (unless flat-out faulty) and there's no evidence that any hyped-up "high end" capacitors really provide any stability at higher temperatures. Besides, are you talking about high capacitor temperatures? Nobody even measures those - they simply aren't an issue.

dan · Post by **dan** » Sun May 02, 2010 9:22 am

swivelguy2 wrote:
dan wrote:The Silentpc idea is to run fans much slower, and have much higher temps, for more quiet pc. A MOBO that can tolerate high-temps would be desired

If spending more for SSD v.s 3.5 is justified in quest for silence, why not hi-c caps?
Because capacitors don't make noise (unless flat-out faulty) and there's no evidence that any hyped-up "high end" capacitors really provide any stability at higher temperatures. Besides, are you talking about high capacitor temperatures? Nobody even measures those - they simply aren't an issue.

What are good motherboard temps for a typical $100 motherboard, and good motherboard temps for a $300 one at stock clock speed?

It might be a good silentpc idea to buy a $300 motherboard and have it cooled only by PSU fan with high temps for motherboard, 90-100C, but a motherboard that can tolerate them