Ryzen is OUT!

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Abula
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Re: Ryzen is OUT!

Post by Abula » Thu Mar 02, 2017 9:35 am

Im happy to see AMD back in the hunt, honestly for people that render a lot, they seem better price/preformance, and even for gamers they seem ok. Also looking foward to the Ryzen 5 and 3, probably this will be more for the masses.

One thing that i do expect, or at least hope for, is intel releasing their first 6 core con iGPU on the none E line, maybe for Coffee Lake.
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Olle P
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Re: Ryzen is OUT!

Post by Olle P » Fri Mar 03, 2017 4:16 am

quest_for_silence wrote:... not for silencers, ...
What do you mean? The CPU makes no noise, and Ryzen don't draw more power than Intel's equivalents (but benefit more from better cooling).

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Re: Ryzen is OUT!

Post by NeilBlanchard » Fri Mar 03, 2017 5:45 am

Apparently, they changed the heatsink mounting holes a bit, and Scythe will be slow to have the new hardware here in the US.

Ryzen seems to have lower IPC than Intel, so for most uses, the Intel chips will be faster. The big upside is that Intel is supposed to be lowering the prices on their CPU's in response to Ryzen.
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quest_for_silence
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Re: Ryzen is OUT!

Post by quest_for_silence » Fri Mar 03, 2017 6:52 am

Olle P wrote:
quest_for_silence wrote:... not for silencers, ...
What do you mean? The CPU makes no noise, and Ryzen don't draw more power than Intel's equivalents (but benefit more from better cooling).

The 1800x is roughly equivalent to a 5960X, and an HEDT isn't best suited for low noise system (hint: look at the overclocked power draw).
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Luca

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Re: Ryzen is OUT!

Post by CA_Steve » Fri Mar 03, 2017 7:25 am

Haven't had a chance to read more than one or two reviews, yet. Glad to see them back in the game. Looks like there needs to be a bunch of optimizations done for apps/gaming/BIOS over the next few months. Hopefully, they'll be in place prior to the R5 release (I'm guessing around Computex in early June).
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Re: Ryzen is OUT!

Post by DanceMan » Fri Mar 03, 2017 11:14 pm

quest_for_silence -- thanks for those links. Looked at a couple.

Did anyone find a test that reported watts at the wall plug for an equivalent package, Ryzen vs. Intel?

Read the Anandtech report but they forgot to bring the power meter to Spain. And haven't updated yet.

DanceMan
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Re: Ryzen is OUT!

Post by DanceMan » Fri Mar 03, 2017 11:15 pm

Found one:

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=a ... 1700&num=9

Near the bottom of the page is a chart of gaming power usage for 1700, 1800X, and 7700K. Looks competitive.

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Re: Ryzen is OUT!

Post by quest_for_silence » Sat Mar 04, 2017 12:41 am

DanceMan wrote:Did anyone find a test that reported watts at the wall plug for an equivalent package, Ryzen vs. Intel?
I didn't read anything definitive, but Bit-Tech/Hexus/KitGuru and TechSpot have some insights.
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Luca

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Re: Ryzen is OUT!

Post by quest_for_silence » Sat Mar 04, 2017 2:01 am

DanceMan wrote:Found one:

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=a ... 1700&num=9

Near the bottom of the page is a chart of gaming power usage for 1700, 1800X, and 7700K. Looks competitive.
OTOH the gaming power draw is almost entirely due to the graphics card, while the CPU power consumption is comparatively small in a gaming scenario: and the 7700K is much better performing at stock clocks.
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Re: Ryzen is OUT!

Post by nagi » Sat Mar 04, 2017 3:18 pm

I'm thinking about jumping ship.... after AMD, MS and the motherboard manufacturers fixes problems they reported with Windows doing sub-optimal thread placements, memory management abd buggy BIOSes. Or maybe next generation, as the price would be pretty high to replace my current mobo+cpu+memory without sacrificing single-thread performance much, meaning I'd have to get the 1800X+a high-end motherboard. ...and I usually don't have performance problems these days. (unless the twitch bug bites me once in a quarter, or I have to raw convert photographs.)

I do like the fact that they used some alloy under the IHS instead of the thick paste intel chose, probably eliminating the need for decapping. In the meantime, I'll probably de-cap my 4790K and 4770K out of frustration.
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Re: Ryzen is OUT!

Post by CA_Steve » Sat Mar 04, 2017 6:22 pm

nagi wrote:I do like the fact that they used some alloy under the IHS instead of the thick paste intel chose, probably eliminating the need for decapping.
Except that Intel moved away from solder alloy expressly because of die micro-cracking due to thermal cycling and differing thermal expansion rates...so hopefully, AMD came up with a solution that mitigates the problem. I guess we'll find out in a few years. :)
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Abula
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Re: Ryzen is OUT!

Post by Abula » Sun Mar 05, 2017 6:34 am

CA_Steve wrote:
nagi wrote:I do like the fact that they used some alloy under the IHS instead of the thick paste intel chose, probably eliminating the need for decapping.
Except that Intel moved away from solder alloy expressly because of die micro-cracking due to thermal cycling and differing thermal expansion rates...so hopefully, AMD came up with a solution that mitigates the problem. I guess we'll find out in a few years. :)
They should give us again open die, laptops was like this not so long ago.
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DanceMan
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Re: Ryzen is OUT!

Post by DanceMan » Sun Mar 05, 2017 10:14 pm

quest_for_silence wrote:
DanceMan wrote:Did anyone find a test that reported watts at the wall plug for an equivalent package, Ryzen vs. Intel?
I didn't read anything definitive, but Bit-Tech/Hexus/KitGuru and TechSpot have some insights.
Thanks Luca, those were very helpful.

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Re: Ryzen is OUT!

Post by NeilBlanchard » Mon Mar 06, 2017 9:49 am

My son found one motherboard that has both the "old" and the new heatsink mounting holes on it, so you can use available heatsinks. I can't find it right now, but I will post the model, soon.
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nagi
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Re: Ryzen is OUT!

Post by nagi » Mon Mar 06, 2017 5:29 pm

CA_Steve wrote:
nagi wrote:I do like the fact that they used some alloy under the IHS instead of the thick paste intel chose, probably eliminating the need for decapping.
Except that Intel moved away from solder alloy expressly because of die micro-cracking due to thermal cycling and differing thermal expansion rates...so hopefully, AMD came up with a solution that mitigates the problem. I guess we'll find out in a few years. :)
Ah, I haven't heard that one. I'm not sure AMD uses the same soldier as Intel used back in the day, and let's be honest, intel did not have any reason to innovate in the area after coming up with this solution, practically being a monopoly on high-end CPUs.

From the delid videos I saw, AMD is using indium-alloy, and a gold layer on the IHS itself to properly mate the IHS to the indium.
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Olle P
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Re: Ryzen is OUT!

Post by Olle P » Thu Mar 09, 2017 2:47 am

quest_for_silence wrote:
Olle P wrote:
quest_for_silence wrote:... not for silencers, ...
What do you mean? ... Ryzen don't draw more power than Intel's equivalents...
The 1800x is roughly equivalent to a 5960X, and an HEDT isn't best suited for low noise system...
Of course none of these CPUs can be considered good for a computer where silence is the primary objective.

I interpreted your original statement as:
"A computer with a Ryzen 1800X will provide more noise than a computer built around a Core i7-6900 or i7-6850, and the CPU is therefore not for silencers."
To me it seems there shouldn't be much of a difference. Neither in computing nor electrical power.
If we then expand the view to include announced Ryzen 5 and Ryzen 3 I feel no reason to claim that the Ryzen family of CPUs have no place in quiet computers.
DanceMan wrote:Did anyone find a test that reported watts at the wall plug for an equivalent package, Ryzen vs. Intel?
Pretty much same power at full CPU load, which is a bit puzzling since Ryzen's TDP is considerably lower.
Intel CPUs (and chipset) draw less power in idle.
__________

After checking out more reviews my overall impression of the Ryzen is:
* Better than anticipated!
* Single thread performance is way better than my very low expectations, but not quite as good as the higher clocked Intel CPUs.
* Seems like the 1700 is the best buy out of the three models launched. The differences between the models are price and pre-set clock speeds. With overclocking applied the difference in clock speed disappears.
* If I were to buy a new CPU today I'd still pick a Core i7-7700K because it fits better with my needs.

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Re: Ryzen is OUT!

Post by quest_for_silence » Thu Mar 09, 2017 5:35 am

Olle P wrote:If we then expand the view to include...

I didn't and I see no reason to do that.
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dhanson865
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Re: Ryzen is OUT!

Post by dhanson865 » Wed Mar 15, 2017 2:14 pm

quest_for_silence wrote:
Olle P wrote:If we then expand the view to include...

I didn't and I see no reason to do that.
I don't see why you wouldn't. I immediately ignore the 95W TDP parts which leaves only 3 choices:

* Ryzen 7 1700 8/16 3.0 3.7 3.75 16 2 Wraith Spire RGB 65W $329

* Ryzen 5 1500X 4/8 3.5 3.7 3.8 8 1 Wraith Spire 65W $189
* Ryzen 5 1400 4/8 3.2 3.4 3.45 8 1 Wraith Stealth 65W $169

The two Ryzen 5 options being cheaper also don't have the scheduling issue should you use older software (maybe you want to use old games on a windows 7 build (native or VM)).

The much higher base clock on the 1500x vs the 1700 makes it a strong contender for programs that are single threaded or what little multi-threading they do doesn't span past dual core very well.

I also wouldn't argue about future proofing as months later (maybe even a year or two) you can grab the second or third spin parts using some of the money you saved the first time around.

I'm not really sure why a silent pc enthusiast would look past the 65W parts and consider a 95W part.

and I'll leave this cheatsheet here http://i.imgur.com/UTHepzS.png
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dhanson865
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Re: Ryzen is OUT!

Post by dhanson865 » Wed Mar 15, 2017 3:03 pm

Oh and here is a good motherboard list https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/5 ... ed_031517/

I'm kind of partial to the Gigabyte GA-AB350-Gaming 3 (not to be confused with the Gigabyte GA-AB350-Gaming (note the missing "3")) because it has so many temp sensors / fan headers and Windows 7 drivers posted. And the "3" version has better audio and more ports in addition to more fan headers and temp sensors.

* 6 Temperature Sensors and 5 Hybrid Fan Headers

every header can be used for a CPU or Case fan, no restrictions on where you route your cables, what you plug in where so if you have a custom case or some old case they didn't plan for that is a lot of flexibility.

And having the temp sensors all over the place means I'll know for sure if I'm cutting the case fans too low (RPS low or off, not as many placed as needed, intake accidentally blocked, whatever).
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Olle P
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Re: Ryzen is OUT!

Post by Olle P » Wed Mar 15, 2017 11:39 pm

dhanson865 wrote:The much higher base clock on the 1500x vs the 1700 makes it a strong contender...
I agree with that, but will wait for reviews to see how well it really perform.
(On the other hand I wouldn't consider buying the 1700 without the intention to overclock it much closer to 4GHz, increasing its power draw.)

Looking at the stats...
* I consider the Ryzen 7 series to compete with Intel's Core i7 Extreme series, and do so at a very competitive price level.
* I think Ryzen 3 will compete well with Pentium and Core i3 for typical office applications and lighter loads. (Perfect for multitasking at work!)
* Ryzen 5 seems to create a new niche of CPUs with lots of (relatively) low clocked cores/threads at a moderate price. Since that type of CPUs don't exist yet there are very few suitable programs for them.
dhanson865 wrote:I'm not really sure why a silent pc enthusiast would look past the 65W parts and consider a 95W part.
Because quite a few of us don't shy away from graphics cards that draw >>100W?
In this case one might want (need) the added computing power to do for example some film and/or photo editing and would already have purchased a Core i7 Extreme if it wasn't for the prohibitively high monetary cost.

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Re: Ryzen is OUT!

Post by quest_for_silence » Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:13 am

dhanson865 wrote:
quest_for_silence wrote:
Olle P wrote:If we then expand the view to include...
I didn't and I see no reason to do that.
I don't see why you wouldn't.

Hey dhanson, long time no see! Welcome back!

It's pretty straightforward: because it's not available. I spoke of what can be actually measured, not about leaks or educated guessworks.
With reference to those first actual reviews I saw/see no reasons / data to speculate.

So, again, being a so-called HEDT CPU, more probably that not the Ryzen 7 is not the best candidate for a silent build.
What that Ryzen 5 (or 3) will be, who knows: albeit in Europe AMD pricing is way less favourable than in North America, I really hope it may give Kaby Lake a run for its money, but again an hope was not what I was talking about.
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dhanson865
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Re: Ryzen is OUT!

Post by dhanson865 » Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:34 am

quest_for_silence wrote:Hey dhanson, long time no see! Welcome back!

It's pretty straightforward: because it's not available. I spoke of what can be actually measured, not about leaks or educated guessworks.
With reference to those first actual reviews I saw/see no reasons / data to speculate.

So, again, being a so-called HEDT CPU, more probably that not the Ryzen 7 is not the best candidate for a silent build.
What that Ryzen 5 (or 3) will be, who knows: albeit in Europe AMD pricing is way less favourable than in North America, I really hope it may give Kaby Lake a run for its money, but again an hope was not what I was talking about.
Thanks, just want to be clear Ryzen 5 parts aren't leaked or rumored at this point. They were announced by AMD.

Websites that have NDAs can't do reviews of the hardware for a few more weeks but this isn't on the order of some sketchy leak.

There was a site that announced it a few hours early and pulled it temporarily but they are officially announced now.

http://techreport.com/news/31586/ryzen- ... 169-to-249
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Re: Ryzen is OUT!

Post by CA_Steve » Thu Mar 16, 2017 7:30 am

I think April 11 is the Ryzen 5 official release date. Pricing released yesterday...I'm sure AMD will carefully orchestrate more info blurbs over the next few weeks to build up hype/pre-release orders. :)
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Re: Ryzen is OUT!

Post by dhanson865 » Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:54 pm

uggh, word is now that the 4 core versions are 2+2 (all CCX configs must be symmetrical, 4+4, 3+3, or 2+2).

If so then the 4 core loses it's one big advantage (I thought it was getting around the CCX issue).

So now the Ryzen 7 1700 is the 65W part with the least drawbacks (but almost twice the price of a Ryzen 5 1500X).

The Ryzen 5 1600 might be the sweet spot?

* Ryzen 5 1500X 4/8 3.5 3.7 3.9 8 Wraith Spire 65W $189
* Ryzen 5 1600 6/12 3.2 3.6 3.7 16 Wraith Spire 65W $219

Seems like the choice between those two is a bet / preference on single core vs mulithreaded apps. Which do you use more of now, how will that change over time? The 1500X will be better for single threaded apps, the 1600 has more cores if you need them.

Also the CCX speed is half of Ram speed so faster ram equals faster CPU connection fabric. There used to be a time when faster ram wasn't worth the money. That time isn't now.

Lot's of new factors for choosing CPU/RAM combos this time around.
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Re: Ryzen is OUT!

Post by quest_for_silence » Fri Mar 17, 2017 2:45 am

dhanson865 wrote:uggh, word is now that the 4 core versions are 2+2 (all CCX configs must be symmetrical, 4+4, 3+3, or 2+2).

If so then the 4 core loses it's one big advantage (I thought it was getting around the CCX issue).
QED...
Regards,
Luca

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