are you using UPS ?

Ansis · Post by **Ansis** » Sun Jun 20, 2004 2:04 am

--- 1. are you using UPS?
---2. why are you using UPS ?
---3. does UPS makes a sound???

shathal · Post by **shathal** » Sun Jun 20, 2004 2:12 am

Don't really need one. They tend to be a waste of money, for personal use, I find. Get a surge protector, and you're OK.

UPS costs (and takes up SPACE) way too much, IMHO. What are your reasons for thinkig you might need one?

Certain buisinesses need them, but for personal use, it's a tad over the top, IMHO.

trodas · Post by **trodas** » Sun Jun 20, 2004 3:10 am

No, I did not using UPS, however I feel I might add it

Just to be safe.

UPS does make sound, when power vent of, a beeping IIRC, or someting like that to make sure you recognized the fact, that is time to shutdown yur computer before the USP batery give up

Surely it can be disabled by removing the speaker

...but I believe that this is actually a good thing

Besides, in normal operation, there should be no sound whatsever

the_smell · Post by **the_smell** » Sun Jun 20, 2004 5:49 am

By the standards of SPCR a UPS can be very noisey, Liebert rate their PowerSure workstation models at '< 40dBA, at 1 meter'. I guess they've got a few moving parts! The UPS we've got at work is much bigger, and you can hear it above all the noisey sgi's (thankfully these will be removed very soon)

Basically only use a UPs if you really need one and preferably put it in a different room from you!

Edit: It appears modern UPSs are much quieter please ignore me!

Shuriken · Post by **Shuriken** » Sun Jun 20, 2004 6:13 am

I have a huge 19 inch 2200 UPS from APC.

The reason why i use it? after i moved in i lost 2 dimms due to spikes in approx. 3 weeks time. Haven't had any problems since.

Why do i have such a big one? i got it for free. It was a left over at work.

It only makes some noise when it does its weekly battery check (or when the power fails). Besides that it is pretty silent. Just a little core buzz....

Post by **Ralf Hutter** » Sun Jun 20, 2004 6:47 am

shathal wrote:Don't really need one. They tend to be a waste of money, for personal use, I find. Get a surge protector, and you're OK.

UPS costs (and takes up SPACE) way too much, IMHO. What are your reasons for thinkig you might need one?

Certain buisinesses need them, but for personal use, it's a tad over the top, IMHO.

You must live right next to a power generating station.

The quality of the pwer here in sunny SoCal is so shitty that I can't imagine not running a UPS. We have constant brownouts and sags, as well as spikes. The only bad thing we don't have is lightening. I can hear my UPS click in and out at least several times each day. Any one of those would have been an out of spec voltage feed into my PSU's and monitor.

I listened to as many UPSes as I could and found that several versions of the APC line are very quiet. The one I use has only a very, very slight transformer buzz and that's only if you get up to about 1 foot away from it.

ChucuSCAD · Post by **ChucuSCAD** » Sun Jun 20, 2004 6:51 am

What I have:

I have 2 APC Back-UPS XS - 1000's, one protecting my tower and a single 19" monitor, the other protecting the other 19" monitor and all of my network gear.
I also have an APC Smart-UPS 1400 protecting my server and some other network gear.

Why I have it:

I am parinoid. Simple as that.

Noise levels:

Well the 2 new 1000's are quiet until they start to recharge. And the old 1400 tends to have a low frequency whine now and again.

chucuSCAD

AZBrandon · Post by **AZBrandon** » Sun Jun 20, 2004 7:44 am

I have a CyberPower 525 and it doesn't make any sound at all. I've already had two momentary (less than 5 seconds) blackouts since then, so I feel it's worth having one, even if you're in an area with pretty stable power.

Bluefront · Post by **Bluefront** » Sun Jun 20, 2004 7:52 am

Yeah I use them also....got about six in the house. I'm plagued with power outages, and lighting spikes. And it's not just for computer stuff either....VCRs, audio equiptment, satellite receivers, TVs, phone equiptment, everything electronic. Since I started using them, the only thing I lost was a C band dish motor (outside the house) due to a very close lighting strike.

hofffam · Post by **hofffam** » Sun Jun 20, 2004 7:54 am

Hmm.....is the power in the UK that stable and consistent? Here in Central Texas we have thunderstorms which cause both spikes and outages. Four years ago I lost about $5000 of electronics because of a surge through the analog phone line during a thunderstorm. And we have periodic brief (less than 5 seconds) power outages, especially during storms. So I have two UPS - one for my main computer, and another for the cable modem and my primary network switch. They are essentially big batteries and are silent. As with Ralf - a UPS is a basic requirement for me. They don't cost that much now.

flyingsherpa · Post by **flyingsherpa** » Sun Jun 20, 2004 8:18 am

i am not an expert on UPS's, but aren't there really two different kinds?

1. inexpensive ones that are just a battery that is activated when power goes below a threshold

2. more expensive ones that actually do conditioning on the line.

when i looked into them a while ago, i got the feeling that version 1 above would prevent your computer from shutting off in a brief power loss, but wouldn't really protect from sags, dips, or small surges (though i think most of them have large surge protection built in). my impression was that version 2 would be much better for sensitive electronics since it had regulating circuitry to smooth out the power. but these units generally cost several times as much as version 1.

can anyone give us the real skinny on this?

nick705 · Post by **nick705** » Sun Jun 20, 2004 8:23 am

hofffam wrote:Hmm.....is the power in the UK that stable and consistent?...

Apparently so...I've never experienced any problems with surges, spikes, brownouts or anything like that. That's not to say they don't happen, but they seem to be well within the limits the equipment is specced to deal with. I guess it varies from area to area, like anywhere else, but at least where I am I've never felt a need even for a surge protector, much less a UPS...

/me looks frantically around for some wood to touch...

Of course, we don't usually get the extreme weather conditions that occur in the continental USA, but I remember stupidly leaving my PC on during a very violent thunderstorm a couple of years back...the lights would flicker at every flash of lightning, but the PC sailed on completely unaffected. Maybe our supply is very tightly regulated...maybe having 230V/50Hz is more resilient than 110V/60Hz...you tell me...

I remember reading somewhere that even sensitive equipment rated at 230V nominal is generally able to cope with spikes of 600 to 700V without damage, but beyond that you should really consider surge protection. Or I could be talking complete cobblers...

Post by **MikeC** » Sun Jun 20, 2004 9:51 am

I have two CyberPower 525, same as AZBrandon's. Have had them for over 3 years; one was replaced under warranty, one is now dead. Battry needs replacment. Still using this one as a power surge protection device. They were cheap -- got them together on sale for under CAD$100 each.

Also use one or 2 AC power meters (Kill-a-watt) most of the time with them to make sure the VA load is under the 525VA rating of each. As I always use APFC PSUs in my PCs, the total load is rarely more than maybe 300VA on each, with just about everything plugged into them: @ PCs, a 17" LCD monitor, a 19" CRT, a more than 1/2 a dozen wall-warts for routers, modems, scanner, etc, etc.

Very important to me as I run my 2 main PCs 24/7. They have rarely been activated as electric power quality in BC is very good. I think there have been only 2 blackouts but maybe half a dozen momentary beeps each year -- theses are defined as sags.

They make no noise -- or so little that I can't hear them... There must be a tiny wee bit of hum.

Post by **MikeC** » Sun Jun 20, 2004 10:05 am

The real skinny on UPS... from http://www.jetcafe.org/~npc/doc/ups-faq.html

There are basically three different types of devices, all of which are occasionally passed off as UPSs.

Standby power supply (SPS). In this type of supply, power is usually derived directly from the power line, until power fails. After power failure, a battery powered inverter turns on to continue supplying power. Batteries are charged, as necessary, when line power is available. This type of supply is sometimes called an "offline" UPS.

The quality and effectiveness of this class of devices varies considerably; however, they are generally quite a bit cheaper than "true" UPSs. The time required for the inverter to come on line, typically called the switchover time, varies by unit. While some computers may be able to tolerate long switchover times, your mileage may vary. [ Some articles in the trade press have claimed that their testing shows that modern PCs can withstand transfer times of 100ms or more. Most UPS units claim a transfer time to battery of about 4ms. Note that even if a computer can stay up for 100ms, it doesn't mean that 100ms switchover is okay. Damage can still be done to a computer or data on it even if it stays up. ]

Other features to look for in this class of supplies is line filtering and/or other line conditioners. Since appliances connected to the supply are basically connected directly from the power line, SPSs provide relatively poor protection from line noise, frequency variations, line spikes, and brownouts.

[Some SPS's claim to have surge/spike suppression circuitry as well as transformers to "boost" voltage without switching to the battery if a modest voltage drop occurs. An example is the "APC Smart UPS" which claims it will switch to this boosting mode if voltage drops below 103V (from the normal expected 120V) and switches to battery only at 90V and below. This, it is claimed, allows operation of the equipment indefinitely under brownout conditions as long as voltage does not drop below 90V. I have not tested this, and would be interested in independent data. There are other vendors products that make similar claims.]

Hybrid [ or ferroresonant] UPS systems. I only know one vendor who sells them - Best Power, Inc. The theory behind these devices is fairly simple. When normal operating line power is present, the supply conditions power using a ferroresonant transformer. This transformer maintains a constant output voltage even with a varying input voltage and provides good protection against line noise. The transformer also maintains output on its secondary briefly when a total outage occurs. Best claims that their inverter then goes on line so quickly that it is operating without any interruption in power. Other UPS vendors maintain that the transition is less than seamless, but then again it's not in their best interest to promote Best's products. Best has a sizable part of the UPS market.

[ Note: According to some sources, ferroresonant transformers in an UPS system can interact with ferroresonant transformers in your equipment and produce unexpected results. On the other hand, ferroresonant UPS systems don't kick off a lot of heat, which is important in some environments. The Moral: Again, test before you buy. -npc ]

What I call "true" UPS systems, those supplies that continuously operate from an inverter. Obviously, there is no switchover time, and these supplies generally provide the best isolation from power line problems. The disadvantages to these devices are increased cost, increased power consumption, and increased heat generation. Despite the fact that the inverter in a "true" UPS is always on, the reliability of such units does not seem to be affected. In fact, we have seen more failures in cheaper SPS units. [ Note, though, that given the same quality inverter, you'd expect the one that runs least to last longest. ]

hydroxyhydride · Post by **hydroxyhydride** » Sun Jun 20, 2004 4:11 pm

I'm running an APC SmartUPS 1500. I was a little concerned when I read the manufacturer's noise sheets myself but don't get too hung up on it. My unit is inaudible from my position. There is a slight buzzing that can be heard from ridiculously close by---only if the room is very quiet.

Anyway, noise is a non-issue. However, if the unit is unplugged from the wall when running, there is at least one fan that starts spinning. Of course, there is an alarm too (which you may be able to disable depending on the unit).

I've also used "BackUPS" units and I must say that I've never noticed any noise coming from them until they are activated. They have a loud "CLICK" as the system switches to battery power momentarily. This clicking is very loud and can be annoying. So if you get a series of sags, you may be hearing your UPS a lot.

I'm guessing that most UPS units are virtually silent (well except for maybe some very quiet buzzing) until there is a "power event." In that case, you should be happy that you have the UPS sitting there

Tigr · Post by **Tigr** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 12:25 am

I have both BackUPS and SmartUPS from APC. SmartUPS at the office and BackUPS at home. The reasons are obvious: I do not want my machines to crash due to the power outages.

The difference between those models is in the mode of operation. BackUPS feeds the AC power directly to your computer. If the power fails, BackUPS will switch to the battery. This unit is completely silent (while not running on batteries, of course) but does not provide as much protection as SmartUPS. SmartUPS conditions the power line, filters it and up- or down-regulates the voltage. The SmartUPS exhibits a slight buzz which is heard in a very close proximity of your ear to the unit.

Any model becomes very noisy when the power is gone. They start humming and vibrating while generating the power from batteries.

shathal · Post by **shathal** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 12:18 pm

Ralf Hutter wrote:
shathal wrote:Don't really need one. They tend to be a waste of money, for personal use, I find. Get a surge protector, and you're OK.

UPS costs (and takes up SPACE) way too much, IMHO. What are your reasons for thinkig you might need one?

Certain buisinesses need them, but for personal use, it's a tad over the top, IMHO.
You must live right next to a power generating station.

The quality of the pwer here in sunny SoCal is so shitty that I can't imagine not running a UPS. We have constant brownouts and sags, as well as spikes. The only bad thing we don't have is lightening. I can hear my UPS click in and out at least several times each day. Any one of those would have been an out of spec voltage feed into my PSU's and monitor.

I listened to as many UPSes as I could and found that several versions of the APC line are very quiet. The one I use has only a very, very slight transformer buzz and that's only if you get up to about 1 foot away from it.

No - just a country which hasn't so far privatised power to such a degree that they skimp on what's necessary.

Notice the "YET"...

tempeteduson · Post by **tempeteduson** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 1:21 pm

No, I don't have a UPS but plan to get one for my next system (most definitely APC). I've had two power outages in one month (each lasting several hours).

HammerSandwich · Post by **HammerSandwich** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 10:12 pm

Ralf Hutter wrote:I listened to as many UPSes as I could and found that several versions of the APC line are very quiet. The one I use has only a very, very slight transformer buzz and that's only if you get up to about 1 foot away from it.

Model number?

Post by **NeilBlanchard** » Tue Jun 22, 2004 2:01 am

Hello:

I like the Belkin 800vA model. I've used a few Tripplite's and APC's, and usually they were fine, too -- except the one 500vA APC does NOT protect my work computer from shutting down, when the microwave oven is used in the same room...

None of them make any appreciable noise.

PassiveMan · Post by **PassiveMan** » Tue Jun 22, 2004 3:26 pm

hofffam wrote:Hmm.....is the power in the UK that stable and consistent?

~20 years with only 2 powercuts and that was in Milton Keynes. I have not experienced any problem of surges, spikes etc.

I have started using a surge protecter in the last few years because of lightning strikes you hear about happening to other people.

peacefulpc · Post by **peacefulpc** » Tue Jun 22, 2004 5:41 pm

we used to lose thousands of dollars of equipment every year (hd and ps, mostly) - all from sags/brownouts.

on one noteable day, we lost half a dozen power supplies, 5 hard drives, and 2 motherboards.

we first went with the less expensive type that does non-active filtering, and loss across our 800 or so computers dropped by 1/2 over the next year. a year later, we started migrating to the higher quality active filtering type by apc, and it dropped by another 80% (numbers are approximations).

BUT, our power has been notoriously bad for years. lots of brownouts and sags, sometimes lasting an hour. ug.

UPS's are expensive, and the 2-5 year battery replacement cycle is a pain, but it's better than the old days, by far! (interesting note: in our worst building, batteries last 1 year before being worn out. in our best, we get 4 years. )

and the actual question - other than when the ups starts, or there's a power outage, they are silent.
good luck!

kai · Post by **kai** » Tue Jun 22, 2004 8:08 pm

Tigr wrote:BackUPS feeds the AC power directly to your computer. If the power fails, BackUPS will switch to the battery. This unit is completely silent (while not running on batteries, of course) but does not provide as much protection as SmartUPS. SmartUPS conditions the power line, filters it and up- or down-regulates the voltage.

APC's website says the BackUPS does line conditioning also. See here, where it is called power conditioning. Both the SmartUPS and the BackUPS claim power conditioning. There is another feature called "Automatic Voltage Regulation (AVR)" that the higher end BackUPS models have and all the SmartUPS models have. What is this?

So what are the benefits are of getting a SmartUPS instead of a BackUPS?

Pate · Post by **Pate** » Tue Jun 22, 2004 8:20 pm

--- 1. are you using UPS?

Yes, an MGE Ellipse 800.
http://www.mgeups.com/products/pdt230/s ... llipse.htm

---2. why are you using UPS ?

To protect my PC from power surges, and to shut it down safely whenever a longer blackout occurs.

---3. does UPS makes a sound???

It buzzes and beeps when it is active (no mains power), but when it is charging (which is of course most of the time) it does not make any sound.

Btw, last sunday we had a thunderstorm, but I kept my PC on. A lightning hit somewhere near, which made the mains power go out for a second or so. My UPS kept my PC running without problems, however later I noticed that my VCR had died. The VCR (like all of my electronics equipment) was connected with a surge protector, but that didn't save it. Luckily no other equipment was affected, and I use my VCR very rarely now that I have a HTPC.

A few years ago when I still had ISDN, a thunderstorm killed both the ISDN box and the surge protector that was supposed to protect it!

I don't much trust surge protectors nowadays...

Pate

peacefulpc · Post by **peacefulpc** » Tue Jun 22, 2004 8:52 pm

to clarify, at least 6 years ago when i did all the checking:
the apc backups series did some correction, but basically the signal from the wall was delivered straight through to the other side, with some modification during sags.

the backups pro series (and smartups) ran all power through the battery, and had a more consistent output (though a square sine wave)

the upgrade we made to improve things dramatically was from backups to backups pro.

we do use smartups on servers and network infrastructure, but just 'pro' on desktops. maybe if you went whole hog, smartups at the desktop would get rid of some of those last few problems...but we have so few issues now, it's hard to justify.

NetTechie · Post by **NetTechie** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 2:57 am

In my experience your computer will run more smoothly if you have it on a surge protector. The crashes from power loss, sags, etc can be harmful to your system and make it need an OS reinstall sooner. Another factor ofcourse is that of your system being fried. I recently had a semi truck rip the electricity off our house... and I mean... completely off. Ripped a big hole in the roof where it was mounted. I was on the internet when this happened, and my system never coughed. Right now I might have a fried borrowed computer if I'd not had this UPS.

Ofcourse, this is far from the ordinary risks a computer faces.

Has SPCR ever considered doing a UPS comparison? Something kinda like consumer reports has done in comparing car batteries?

Are there any UPS's out there that offer replaceable batteries, using something such as small motorcycle batteries?

Also, has anyone ever tried making their own UPS? I have an electronic engineer friend who was thinking of making one out of a marine battery... total parts cost he estimated would be less than $100, and be far more capable and powerful than any computer UPS.

Is there a UPS brand/model that is hands down the best around for the money? I'm looking at buying one for a business that is located kinda in the boonies, and has power outages/sags a lot. They actually run 4 computers... would they need one for each computer, or what wattage would be enough for them all to run off one?

peerke · Post by **peerke** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 10:56 am

I'm very interested in what UPS I should get. I don't fully trust the recommentations of salesmen or so called expert friends. My hope is on this thread to give me a more or less clear answer on this.
BTW: doesn't this thread belong in the Power Supply forum?

trinitrotoluene · Post by **trinitrotoluene** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 11:13 am

I used to have one, but after I got a new PSU the UPS didn't provide enough VA. It only got used a few times. I haven't had any problems without it for quite some time now. I would like to buy a new one, but don't have the money to spend on ones that provide enough juice.

Rook · Post by **Rook** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 2:46 pm

NetTechie wrote: Has SPCR ever considered doing a UPS comparison? Something kinda like consumer reports has done in comparing car batteries?

Given that pretty much everybody in this thread has said that their UPS is silent or virtually silent (i.e. no noise beyond 50cm or so), what's the point of SPCR doing a comparison? IMHO, such a comparison wouldn't be very useful, at least, not if what's being compared is the sound output of various UPS devices. If what's being compared is the quality of the UPS (things like battery life, maximum load, etc.), then such a comparison doesn't really belong on SPCR, as it wouldn't have anything to do with silent computing.

FWIW, I've got an APC Back-UPS 500, and it's totally silent except when the power goes out, and the unit alarms (but at that point, it's supposed to make noise).

peacefulpc · Post by **peacefulpc** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 4:48 pm

Rook wrote: Given that pretty much everybody in this thread has said that their UPS is silent or virtually silent (i.e. no noise beyond 50cm or so), what's the point of SPCR doing a comparison? IMHO, such a comparison wouldn't be very useful, at least, not if what's being compared is the sound output of various UPS devices. If what's being compared is the quality of the UPS (things like battery life, maximum load, etc.), then such a comparison doesn't really belong on SPCR, as it wouldn't have anything to do with silent computing.

good point....but there is a connection!

your computer is much more likely to be quiet without a ups than with. dead silent

it also won't produce any heat, beyond a few burned out chips

are you using UPS ?

are you using UPS ?

I like the Belkin

power quality

Re: are you using UPS ?

apc clarification

dead silent