Is the Seasonic S12 better than the Super Tornado?

dan · Post by **dan** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 11:57 pm

is the seasonic s12 worth waiting for, by that i mean, how desirable is it to get the features that the tornado does not have, such as dual 12-volt rails, and a different brand 120mm fan on rubber grommets? apparently efficiency is the same as the tornado.

[i am specifically comparing the seasonic tornado with the seasonic s12, which seasonic has announced but is not yet shipping]

Interitus · Post by **Interitus** » Sun Jan 23, 2005 7:19 pm

I'm still looking for one of these to pop up in the US market.

Supposedly MikeC has a review coming up for it as well.

Trip · Post by **Trip** » Sun Jan 30, 2005 1:17 pm

review

daba · Post by **daba** » Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:47 pm

www.3dgameman.com has a video review on this as well.

Post by **MikeC** » Sun Jan 30, 2005 4:52 pm

dan wrote:is the seasonic s12 worth waiting for...

This kind of question always makes me scratch my head. Who's to judge "worth"? I mean it's almost entirely dependent on need, want and PoV. It's worth waiting an hour for a great meal instead of 2 minutes for a burger -- if you aren't starving or if $100 vs $3 is no issue or....

It's not the same question at all as Is the Seasonic S12 better than the Super Tornado? I have no comment on the question as you worded it Dan, but I do have an answer for the question I posed: YES.

In testing yesterday, an S12-430 reached as high as 84% efficiency. The fan controller seems to ramp up even slower than the ST (rev.A3). No downsides AFAIK at this point. But from what I gather, it may be a couple months before we see it actually in the stores. Basically the <430W models are STs with slightly higher efficiency and PCIe compatibility. The 500W and 600W models obviously offer a lot more power -- more than any other Seasonics in the retail channels.

dan · Post by **dan** » Sun Jan 30, 2005 7:14 pm

thanks mike c

yes my question is, if i am currently using a generic aopen 250 watt power supply, should i upgrade to the tornado 300 watt now, or wait for the s12 330watt PSU?

if you read the following, i ask about the features of the s12 and how attractive are they over the tornado, and whether it justifies both waiting and any price premiums.

i wonder about 1- efficiency 2- accoustics 3- features/connectors such as 75 watt pci-E connector, 4- cost how much of a price premium does it command

i am planning on purchasing the s12 330watt unit, rather than a tornado 300 watt unit. do you know if it supports 75 watt pciE connectors (the data sheet states only the 500 watt and 600 watt supports pci E,) and how much of a price premium and when it will be introduced?

Post by **MikeC** » Sun Jan 30, 2005 7:32 pm

IF there's no rush, then wait. The S12 series, I was told, will be no more $$ than the S.Tornano. So if everything is OK right now...

On the other hand, why upgrade the PSU at all if everything is fine? Is it quiet enough? Also, if it is going into any older system, esp if you plan to keep using it for a while, there's nothing really gained w/ S12 over ST.

acaurora · Post by **acaurora** » Sun Jan 30, 2005 7:56 pm

What about the S12 vs a SS, especially a SS w/L1A A3 ?

I know they're not in the same class, one being 12Cm the other being 8, but what do you think, in terms of performance/noise ?

Post by **MikeC** » Sun Jan 30, 2005 8:02 pm

acaurora wrote:What about the S12 vs a SS, especially a SS w/L1A A3 ?

I know they're not in the same class, one being 12Cm the other being 8, but what do you think, in terms of performance/noise ?

IMO, in normal usage in a very quiet computer, both are very close to inaudble. Beyond that, it all depends on your own system config & how clever you are at tweaking for best cooling/noise. The S12 does seem a bit more efficient, but the difference is small, and it's very possible that incremental gains achieved in routine production refinements could have upped the SS models to the same efficiency. Cannot be sure except by testing a bunch.

acaurora · Post by **acaurora** » Sun Jan 30, 2005 8:06 pm

/me finds a rich friend who buys a bunch of S12s and SS A3s w/L1As

Here ya go ;P

Interitus · Post by **Interitus** » Sun Jan 30, 2005 8:13 pm

Sorry Mike, I somehow got the impression from another thread that you had one for review purposes. My mistake.

I was considering one of these myself, however all the hoopla around dual rail PSU's having trouble in SLI setups turned me off of it.

I'll probably be going with an OCZ Modstream, as your review gave it high marks except for the fan. Guess a little swap would make it a good PSU

Post by **MikeC** » Sun Jan 30, 2005 8:48 pm

Interitus wrote:Sorry Mike, I somehow got the impression from another thread that you had one for review purposes. My mistake.

I was considering one of these myself, however all the hoopla around dual rail PSU's having trouble in SLI setups turned me off of it.

I'll probably be going with an OCZ Modstream, as your review gave it high marks except for the fan. Guess a little swap would make it a good PSU

Huh? i think you missed somethin: I DO have an S12-430!! I mentioned above that I was testing it yesterday!!

I think the real BS around SLI is SLI itself: From the better assessments I have read, it's just another scam. A faster single card is cooler, higher performance and cheaper than 2 slower cards in SLI. (What do think was the real impetus behind the intro of stereo and then quad and now multichannel home video? -- no points for the right answer, it's too easy.)

As for the OCZ Modstream, well it's your money... but if you simply examine the fundamentals -- efficiency, HS size, PF -- it's way overpriced. With a little study of Ralf Hutter's cable management techniques, detachable cables are no big deal. Spending $140 and then still having to spend more $ to swap out the fan, thus losing your warranty, does not sound good to me. No way I would pay for one. (oops, did I just say that?)

lenny · Post by **lenny** » Sun Jan 30, 2005 10:59 pm

MikeC wrote:I think the real BS around SLI is SLI itself: From the better assessments I have read, it's just another scam.

But you must admit its great marketing.

Actually, SLI does offer one attraction for me. 4 DVI outputs. Yum... Maybe someday...

By the way, thanks for the short preview of the S12. It sounds like a great PSU!

meglamaniac · Post by **meglamaniac** » Mon Jan 31, 2005 1:18 am

Mike: My decision has already been made as I have bought the ST 400. I was interested to see you mention PCIe compatibility though. The ST 400 certainly is PCIe compatible (ATX 2.0 compliance etc) and at one point I'm sure I saw something on these forums indicating Seasonic were going to extend that down the ST line.
Is it now more likely that the ST 400 will be the only PCIe certified Tornado?

Post by **MikeC** » Mon Jan 31, 2005 1:32 am

meglamaniac wrote:Mike: My decision has already been made as I have bought the ST 400. I was interested to see you mention PCIe compatibility though. The ST 400 certainly is PCIe compatible (ATX 2.0 compliance etc) and at one point I'm sure I saw something on these forums indicating Seasonic were going to extend that down the ST line.
Is it now more likely that the ST 400 will be the only PCIe certified Tornado?

Dan was comparing the ST300 vs S12-300, hence my PCIe comment. AFAIK, in the Super line, only the ST400 and SSilencer 400 & 460 are PCIe compatible.

meglamaniac · Post by **meglamaniac** » Mon Jan 31, 2005 1:34 am

So he was, my bad.
Hopefully I'll have the bits for this system sometime this month so I can actually use that ST 400, hehe.

Interitus · Post by **Interitus** » Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:59 am

Huh? i think you missed somethin: I DO have an S12-430!! I mentioned above that I was testing it yesterday!!

I think the real BS around SLI is SLI itself: From the better assessments I have read, it's just another scam. A faster single card is cooler, higher performance and cheaper than 2 slower cards in SLI. (What do think was the real impetus behind the intro of stereo and then quad and now multichannel home video? -- no points for the right answer, it's too easy.)

As for the OCZ Modstream, well it's your money... but if you simply examine the fundamentals -- efficiency, HS size, PF -- it's way overpriced. With a little study of Ralf Hutter's cable management techniques, detachable cables are no big deal. Spending $140 and then still having to spend more $ to swap out the fan, thus losing your warranty, does not sound good to me. No way I would pay for one. (oops, did I just say that?)

Yeah I noticed I read your post wrong. Whoops. 14 hour work days kill my brain activity.

SLI isn't really my thing right now. Yeah it's a marketing scam from an upgrade standpoint, but from a high end performance standpoint with 2 top of the line cards it's pretty nice. (I.E. 2x6800 Ultras will plow 1 anyday, but other than that 2x any other cards isn't worth it.) Either way it's not really for me. I'm really more opting for a somewhat future proof purchase here. Which leads me to my next point....

The reason I am going with the Modstream is not because of the detachable cables or bling bling fan or anything like that. It's quite opposite. I plan on purchasing the MSI Neo4 Diamond (or I guess SLI Platinum here in the US). My reasons for this are mostly for its features vs. the cost over an Ultra board and location of its chipset. It seems to have the best location for a silencing enthusiast, giving a bit more room for large VGA sinks and a passive chipset cooler. I know I was talking about the Modstream but hang with me here....it ties together. All Nforce4 motherboards have 24 pin ATX plugs. The Modstream has the hybrid 24 pin plug which is a plus. But here's the deciding reason. The Neo4 SLI has onboard Creative audio. That's a big selling point for me. It adds semi-decent audio to a motherboard, eliminates the need for a PCI card, and while I'm at it I get SLI capabilities. Ok so back to the Modstream....The Creative onboard APU on the MSI requires a -5v pin to function. Without it, the onboard SoundBlaster is a $20 waste of motherboard real estate. The problem with ATX12V 2.0 PSU's is that the -5v is gone from the new spec. So basically to ensure perfect functionality with whatever I decide to do in the future for at least a few years, I need....

A -5v line
Large amps on a single 12v line
QUIETNESS
A true 24 pin connector or hybrid connector, no adapters (from a wiring neatness and PSU longevity standpoint)

Besides, I see in SPCR's lab clearance you have a Modstream

(If you haven't sold it yet...)

-edit-

the 450w version should be fine for me @ 26 amps on the 12v rail. it's $90 at newegg.

Trip · Post by **Trip** » Mon Jan 31, 2005 6:54 am

This might be a stupid question, but why do you think OCZ left the -5V ? Just so that it would have everything?

acaurora · Post by **acaurora** » Mon Jan 31, 2005 7:02 am

Boost SPCR's ratings by downloading and installing Alexa (click "Free Toobar" at the top) for Internet Explorer. A few users can make a very significant difference! Also, Mozilla's Firefox is great for nonSPCR websurfing.

Uhhh... what is that? No, I don't want to install stupid Alexa spyware -.-... FireFox I use.

Mats · Post by **Mats** » Mon Jan 31, 2005 7:13 am

acaurora wrote:
Boost SPCR's ratings by downloading and installing Alexa (click "Free Toobar" at the top) for Internet Explorer. A few users can make a very significant difference! Also, Mozilla's Firefox is great for nonSPCR websurfing.

Uhhh... what is that? No, I don't want to install stupid Alexa spyware -.-...

Same here, I treat stuff like that like the plague!
Can someone explain how it can "boost SPCR's ratings"???
I really have no idea...

.and I'm totally offtopic..

Trip · Post by **Trip** » Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:07 am

See "If you like SPCR..."

Also, "Alexa Rankings of Top Folders"

We almost broke 10,000! Now, we're at a measley 26,289...

The cost of the support is spyware and maybe a less stable IE though I use Firefox for everything but SPCR and a couple of other sites that I boost when visiting just for the heck of it.

I don't think there are but 3 to 6 SPCR regs. who use Alexa. One user makes a significant difference.

EDIT: The reason I have "pc, dsl, monitor, motherboard, hdd, cd, optical, dvd, storage, keyboard, CPU, GPU, mac" is to get rid of the green words. They really bugged me at first.

EDIT2: Back when SPCR was moving up, antiwar.com, a news site I read, asked its readers to switch to Alexa. In a very short time, antiwar entered the low 3000s though it looks like it's dropped a bit since then as well.

Mats · Post by **Mats** » Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:35 am

Trip: I don't know much about things like this, but I try to avoid additional toolbars of every kind. Still, I do want to help.

Do I really need the toolbar to contribute to the ranking?
I mean, what if I use this link?
http://redirect.alexa.com/redirect?http ... eview.com/

Thanks for your help!

Trip · Post by **Trip** » Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:57 am

I imagine you would need the toolbar b/c every user is monitored individually. Signing onto SPCR homepage twice only registers as one hit, though viewing another SPCR page registers as two pages visited by one person on the one site.

Alexa puts a lot of spyware on your comp. though, and if you remove it via adaware, the toolbar is removed along with it. If you notice instability or sluggishness, I wouldn't use it.

EDIT: I notice instability with IE, but not with the general computer. No sluggishness.

meglamaniac · Post by **meglamaniac** » Mon Jan 31, 2005 11:06 am

I dislike anything that tracks where I go or what I do.
And so far as I know all anti-spyware tools remove alexa, as that's exactly what it is...

Trip · Post by **Trip** » Mon Jan 31, 2005 12:30 pm

I'm not sure how extensive the monitoring is, but it is definately spyware.

I don't mind if people know what I what sites I visit; so if the toolbar gets a few more products in for review, it's worth it for me.

I'd like people to know about the toolbar so that the ranking will improve, but I don't mind if anyone chooses not to use it.

dan · Post by **dan** » Mon Jan 31, 2005 7:34 pm

hi mike c

i think it's totally cool you have a s12 400 watt PSU.
where can i get/buy a seasonic s12 330watt PSU? it doesn't show up on pricewatch or pricegrabber or newegg

Post by **MikeC** » Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:26 pm

c'mon dan, read!

MikeC wrote:..... But from what I gather, it may be a couple months before we see it actually in the stores.....

dan · Post by **dan** » Mon Jan 31, 2005 9:54 pm

lol the reason i asked is that i thought you know of a vendor that sells it, that does not appear on pricewatch/pricegrabber. in other words, how did you get your hands on one? mike can i buy your unit?

how much would you want for it?

Post by **MikeC** » Mon Jan 31, 2005 11:00 pm

dan wrote:lol the reason i asked is that i thought you know of a vendor that sells it, that does not appear on pricewatch/pricegrabber. in other words, how did you get your hands on one? mike can i buy your unit? how much would you want for it?

They came directly from Seasonic; review sites usually get early samples. We're not finished with this one yet.... we often put reviewed PSUs to work in lab systems for a while to get a better feel for any possible misbehaviors in longer temr use.

dan · Post by **dan** » Mon Jan 31, 2005 11:58 pm

i thought to ask b/c for example, both pricewatch and pricegrabber list $40 as the least expensive price for the thermalright si-97. but www.excaliberpc.com lists it for $30, only problem is that it apparently is out of business.

so what are your initial thoughts or impressions on this PSU? 84% seems rather impressive. would you say this would be the #1 recommended PSU for silent pc enthusiasts, ahead of nexus?

i'll send an email to seasonic if i can buy from them directly

Is the Seasonic S12 better than the Super Tornado?

Is the Seasonic S12 better than the Super Tornado?

Re: seasonic s12 worth waiting for?

Re: seasonic s12 worth waiting for?