new FSP Green Power with 85% efficiency

PSUs: The source of DC power for all components in the PC & often a big noise source.

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Tibors
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Post by Tibors » Tue Mar 29, 2005 6:15 pm

It's the wet weather in north west europe. They expect us to always suffer from a slight cold. Thus we should have worse hearing than the taiwanese.
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Post by Spod » Fri Apr 01, 2005 4:35 am

Since the UK uses 240V AC, power supplies are able to operate at higher efficiency (a few percent), meaning less heat generated and slightly lower (temperature controlled) fan speed than the same system running on a 110-120V AC supply.
I don't think that would account for a reduction from 30 dBA to 25 dBA, though.
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Post by Tamas » Fri Apr 01, 2005 11:32 am

Cebit news about FSP Green Power & the passive cooled FSP Zens power supply.

Hexus net:
http://www.hexus.net/content/reviews/re ... 9JRD0xMDcw

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Post by Slaugh » Mon Apr 11, 2005 2:33 am

Matbe.com tested the fanless version today, the FSP Zen 300W (FSP300-60GNF). For those who need an english translation, click here (babelfish *).

(* Please note: "power supply" is translated as "food" by babelfish, so don't be surprised to learn that fanless food exists! :lol: )

Image

Image

Image
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Post by Mats » Mon Apr 11, 2005 3:55 am

Looks like a winner except being second best (just 2 W more, nevermind) at the lowest output. Draws 32 W less than the Phantom at their highest load? If true, then we're really talking high efficency!

The Phantom have a 86-87 % efficency at that output and 120 V, so even better at 240 V, which should put the Zen beyond 90 %??? Since it's an overclocked system I guess the output from the 3.3, 5 and 12 V lines are different to SPCR's tests, they're probably having a higher load on the 12 V line. But let's use SPCR's measured efficency anyway:

309*0.86/277 = 0.959.... :shock: With that kind of efficency I really can consider buying a fanless PSU.
Ok, I must be wrong, or maybe Matbe...

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Post by frostedflakes » Mon Apr 11, 2005 6:12 am

Very interesting. I was considering the Seasonic S12 330w, but if this is cheaper and/or higher in efficiency, I may try it out.

Any word yet on availability in the U.S.?
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Post by Bitter Jitter » Mon Apr 11, 2005 6:49 am

Mats wrote:Looks like a winner except being second best (just 2 W more, nevermind) at the lowest output. Draws 32 W less than the Phantom at their highest load? If true, then we're really talking high efficency!

The Phantom have a 86-87 % efficency at that output and 120 V, so even better at 240 V, which should put the Zen beyond 90 %??? Since it's an overclocked system I guess the output from the 3.3, 5 and 12 V lines are different to SPCR's tests, they're probably having a higher load on the 12 V line. But let's use SPCR's measured efficency anyway:

309*0.86/277 = 0.959.... :shock: With that kind of efficency I really can consider buying a fanless PSU.
Ok, I must be wrong, or maybe Matbe...
96% :shock:
From the FSP Group website
Efficiency : >89%
So it could be correct although the mind boggles how they could achieve that?
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Post by MikeC » Mon Apr 11, 2005 7:23 am

Mats wrote:The Phantom have a 86-87 % efficency at that output and 120 V, so even better at 240 V, which should put the Zen beyond 90 %???
Hold it there! This was measured on a non-PFC model at 120VAC. The EU version has Active PFC and is spec'd by Antec to be something like 4% less efficient.
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Post by Mats » Mon Apr 11, 2005 9:15 am

MikeC wrote:Hold it there! This was measured on a non-PFC model at 120VAC. The EU version has Active PFC and is spec'd by Antec to be something like 4% less efficient.
Thanks Mike. Forgot about PFC. I was just waiting for someone to find out what I did wrong, I didn't really believe in it myself! :)
Still, it's very high efficency. On the other hand, I'm looking at the best numbers, while I'm not very interested in 250 W PSU output. Over 90 % (if assuming 82 % for Phantom) in the same calculation I did before. Let's wait for a better review, :wink: so we know for sure. End of speculation.

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Post by Mats » Mon Apr 11, 2005 5:26 pm


Slaugh
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Post by Slaugh » Wed Apr 13, 2005 1:25 am

Another interesting review of the Fortron Zen 300W from techPowerUp:

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/FSP/Zen/

techPowerUp.com wrote:Test Equipment
  • The PSU is connected to an APC SmartUPS which supplies clean 220V input.
  • AC current is measured using a Peaktech 4010 desktop RS232 multimeter with 0.01A accuracy.
  • To measure DC output voltages of the PSU we use a 20-bit data acquisition system calibrated to 10uV accuracy.
  • Power Factor is measured using a generic Power Efficiency Meter.
  • Heatsink temperature was measured using a HP 2801A thermometer calibrated to 0.01°C.
  • Measurements for Ripple Voltage were obtained using a 30 MHz HAMEG Analog/Digital Oscilloscope.
Tested on: P4 3.0F @ 4.0 Ghz, 1.55V. ABIT Fatal1ty AA8XE, 1GB OCZ PC2-5400 EB, Radeon X850 XT, Maxtor DiamondMax 10 SATA.


Image

techPowerUp.com wrote:All lines are fluctuating a bit, but nothing too serious. Considering the load we put on this small 300W PSU, it is suprising that it kept the system stable.
All lines are well within the limits set by the ATX Specification.

[...]

However, we tried a few things to break the FSP Zen but it always came out top.
techPowerUp.com wrote:What I noticed, is that even though the PSU is fanless, it emits a some electric noise. During normal operation it is not noticable, but when you put your ear right on the PSU case, you can hear it.
Also when load is high, you can hear the sound coming out of your case. What is even more disturbing is that the tone changes with the load, so you notice it much more, compared to a constant high pitched sound.
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Post by Shining Arcanine » Wed Apr 13, 2005 1:56 pm

Isn't electrical noise due to the interactions between components therefore it shouldn't appear in every PC that has a Zen Fanless PSU?

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Post by Tamas » Thu Apr 14, 2005 2:23 pm

Hello again :)

I've just bought an FSP Green Power 400W power supply.
Here is a smalll review:

-The power supply contains 3 very small flat heatsinks. The board in the PSU also very small.

http://www.kepfeltoltes.hu/050414/belso1.jpg
Image
-The fan is a Protechnic MGA12012LR (12V;0,3A), it has a loud weird clicking noise at low speed, when the fan RPMs ramps up, this clicking noise decreasing. The fan strongly resonates.
I've not heard high frequency noise from this PSU.


-AC Power Consumption compared to FSP-350-60PN(PF):

Config1: Asus K8N, Athlon64 2800+, 512MB BGA DDR400 memory, 160+120GB 7200RPM HDD, Pioneer A08, Gigabyte 9600 PRO, Miro PCTV Pro, SBlive, 3fans: 900RPM Noiseblocker SE2 Blue (92mm), one 850 RPM Panaflo FBA08A 12L1BX, and the PSU's 12cm fan.

Config2: Epox KT600 mobo, AMD Barton 2500+@2,2GHz, 512MB DDR400 memory, 2x200GB+2x160GB 7200RPM HDD, Pioneer A05, Pioneer A08, Gigabyte 9600PRO, Miro PCTV PRO, SBlive, 5 louder fans.


Config1 AC Power with FSP 350-60PN(PF) PSU:
1, Switched off (standby): 3,6W
2, Windows XP idle: 99W
3, Virtualdub video compression (Highest priority): 135W
4: Game (Pacific Fighters, 3Dmark2005): 145W

Config1 AC Power with FSP Green Power 400W PSU:
1, Switched off (standby): 2,1W
2, Windows XP idle: 87W
3, Virtualdub video compression (Highest priority): 121W
4: Game (Pacific Fighters, 3Dmark2005): 128W
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Config2 AC Power with FSP 350-60PN(PF) PSU:
1, Switched off (standby): 3,6W
2, Windows XP idle: 120W
3, Virtualdub video compression (Highest priority): 175W
4: Game (Pacific Fighters, 3Dmark2005): 195W

Config2 AC Power with FSP Green Power 400W PSU:
1, Switched off (standby): 2,1W
2, Windows XP idle: 102W
3, Virtualdub video compression (Highest priority): 158W
4: Game (Pacific Fighters, 3Dmark2005): 172W

In my opinion this is not a good PSU, the Protechnic fan is very bad (clicking,resonating). The heatsinks are too flat, too small. But the fan contorller works well, the fan didn't ramp up too much, it stayed at low speed even in the tuning K7 configuration. But in summer maybe these small heatsinks cause much higher fan RPM's.
Not recommended.

:shock: :? :( :x :evil: :cry:

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Post by niels007 » Thu Apr 14, 2005 3:47 pm

wow so little inside! Thanks for the quick review Tamas.

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Post by RaNDoMMAI » Thu Apr 14, 2005 4:02 pm

those heatsinks look smaller then normal....

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Post by kjf105 » Thu Apr 14, 2005 6:46 pm

Tamas: Does it seem to run hot under load?

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Post by mathias » Thu Apr 14, 2005 6:53 pm

Maybe the heatsinks are so small because it doesn't really heat up much in any particular place due to the high efficiency?

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Post by Green Shoes » Thu Apr 14, 2005 8:03 pm

mathias wrote:Maybe the heatsinks are so small because it doesn't really heat up much in any particular place due to the high efficiency?
Could be...a 100% efficient PSU would produce no heat at all...

I wonder if the fan could be modded to something more to our liking, Nexus, Globe or something. If there's no coil whine it seems like there wouldn't be too many other factors to consider. The power consumption figures are promising, anyway....

thanks for the quick write-up, Tamas!

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Post by Tamas » Thu Apr 14, 2005 9:09 pm

kjf105 wrote:Tamas: Does it seem to run hot under load?
It's a bit warm in the Athlon 64 and warm in the K7 conf; but not hot. The CPU temperature also rised 2C in both configuration, maybe because the lower RPMs of the 12cm fan. (Room temperature 21C)

-------------------
Green Shoes wrote:I wonder if the fan could be modded to something more to our liking, Nexus, Globe or something. If there's no coil whine it seems like there wouldn't be too many other factors to consider. The power consumption figures are promising, anyway....
If I mod this PSU, I would change to this fan:

Nexus Model D12SL-12
Dimensions 120x120x25mm
Weight xx grams
Rated Voltage 12 Volts
Voltage Range 6.5 ~ 13.8 Volts
Input current 0.30 Amp Max
Input power 1.8 Watts Max

Now it has a 0,3A Protechnic. Do you think Nexus fan is a good choice?
But I don't know what will happen in summer when the temps rising to 30C in my room. This heatsinks looks too small. :?

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Post by Tibors » Fri Apr 15, 2005 5:57 am

Consider that not so long ago PSU's had 65% efficiency and they used those "bend fingers" type of heatsinks that are not that much bigger than the heatsinks in the Green Power. The Green Power claims >85% efficiency, so it only emits less than half the heat those old PSU's did (15% instead of 35%) for the same delivered power. Newer systems need some more power than systems from some years ago, but not twice as much. (At least for the AMD systems you are using.)

I'd give a fan swap with a Nexus a try.
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Post by MikeC » Fri Apr 15, 2005 7:04 am

Tamas wrote:In my opinion this is not a good PSU, the Protechnic fan is very bad (clicking,resonating). The heatsinks are too flat, too small. But the fan contorller works well, the fan didn't ramp up too much, it stayed at low speed even in the tuning K7 configuration. But in summer maybe these small heatsinks cause much higher fan RPM's.
Not recommended.

:shock: :? :( :x :evil: :cry:
While I appreciate your mini-review, the reasons for your disappointment are mostly superficial, and your own data tells a different story than your words.

In the 2 setups you described...

-- the Green Power model produces 12W & 18W less than the FSP 350-60PN(PF) in IDLE mode.
-- the Green Power model produces 17W & 23W less than the FSP 350-60PN(PF) at max draw in the game.

Those are NOT small differences.

WE can guesstimate that the efficiency of the 350-60PN(PF) is no better than 70% at the higer load. (Based on my review of a very similar model.) Assuming your power figures are reasonably accurate, this means it would have been producing ~58.5W of heat and delivering 136.5W (based on the 195W AC draw). The Green model would have been producing just 35.5W of heat delivering the same about of power. This gives us an approximate efficiency of 79.3%. (All this is based on many assumptions, so it is very rough)

The greatly reduced heat output is a perfectly good reason for the smaller HS, and there is absolutely nothing "bad" about using a simple circuit w/fewer parts. It is a natural cost venefit to achieving high efficiency in a PSU. Engineering, generally, is the art of doing more with less. Low parts cost /count is part of the efficiency formula. You say yourself that the exhaust air stayed cool.

Too bad about the fan... but at least it should be easily replaceable.

Shining Arcanine: re electrical noise -- every electronic power component (including your stereo) makes some. The main question is just a question of how loud. Interactions with the load will certain affect how much noise is produced. techPowerUp.com's observations are not promising, though.
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Post by Bitter Jitter » Fri Apr 15, 2005 9:57 am

This power supply isn't call GREEN POWER just because its got high efficiency. To compile with the European Waste Electrical and Electronic Equipment (WEEE) directive, the weight and use of hazardous materials has been reduced. This makes it easier to recycle and therefore will be cost less for Fortron, when it's useful life is over.
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Post by Tibors » Fri Apr 15, 2005 11:09 am

MikeC wrote:Too bad about the fan... but at least it should be easily replaceable.
Even better would be if Nexus asked Fortron to develop a successor for the NX-3500 based on the design of the Green Power and the fan control and fan of the NX-4090. (The NX-4090 is to new to be replaced, but the NX-3500 is an older design by now.)
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Post by Tamas » Fri Apr 15, 2005 11:18 am

Tibors wrote:
MikeC wrote:Too bad about the fan... but at least it should be easily replaceable.
Even better would be if Nexus asked Fortron to develop a successor for the NX-3500 based on the design of the Green Power and the fan control and fan of the NX-4090. (The NX-4090 is to new to be replaced, but the NX-3500 is an older design by now.)
The Hungarian Nexus dealer told me 2 month ago that a new high eff. Nexus PSU coming. :)

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Post by Tamas » Fri Apr 15, 2005 11:30 am

MikeC wrote:
Tamas wrote:In my opinion this is not a good PSU, the Protechnic fan is very bad (clicking,resonating). The heatsinks are too flat, too small. But the fan contorller works well, the fan didn't ramp up too much, it stayed at low speed even in the tuning K7 configuration. But in summer maybe these small heatsinks cause much higher fan RPM's.
Not recommended.

:shock: :? :( :x :evil: :cry:
While I appreciate your mini-review, the reasons for your disappointment are mostly superficial, and your own data tells a different story than your words.

In the 2 setups you described...

-- the Green Power model produces 12W & 18W less than the FSP 350-60PN(PF) in IDLE mode.
-- the Green Power model produces 17W & 23W less than the FSP 350-60PN(PF) at max draw in the game.

Those are NOT small differences.

WE can guesstimate that the efficiency of the 350-60PN(PF) is no better than 70% at the higer load. (Based on my review of a very similar model.) Assuming your power figures are reasonably accurate, this means it would have been producing ~58.5W of heat and delivering 136.5W (based on the 195W AC draw). The Green model would have been producing just 35.5W of heat delivering the same about of power. This gives us an approximate efficiency of 79.3%. (All this is based on many assumptions, so it is very rough)

The greatly reduced heat output is a perfectly good reason for the smaller HS, and there is absolutely nothing "bad" about using a simple circuit w/fewer parts. It is a natural cost venefit to achieving high efficiency in a PSU. Engineering, generally, is the art of doing more with less. Low parts cost /count is part of the efficiency formula. You say yourself that the exhaust air stayed cool.

Too bad about the fan... but at least it should be easily replaceable.
Thanks your advices. :)
Yes I know that 12-23W advantage is great. But a well designed heatsink like in the S12 would be better. Now I have 21C in my room but at summer it will be 28-30C. I think at this temperature, a bigger heatsink means lower fan RPMs. :?: (This is my only problem.)
At 21C Green Power working well with these small heatsinks.

I have a Yate Loon D12SM-12 0,3A fan in the 350-60PN(PF), it's quiet smooth, so I will make a fan swap soon. :)

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Post by mb2 » Fri Apr 15, 2005 6:02 pm

looking at the small internal size of this (and being as i stupidly recently broke my m-ATX psu :oops: ) it makes me wonder about the potential of modding this into a M-ATX psu?
the only possible problem i can see is the 'width' of the board?.. anyone got any dimensions?
makes u wonder why no one produces more powerful m-ATX psus!.. (~280w is the most powerful IIRC.. someone correct me if u know better)

and any word on availablilty or pricing in the uk? ..i'm hoping this 'low raw materials use' idea translates to low cost too!

i'm hoping that nexus take this and mod it with monster heatsinks :)

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Post by Tamas » Fri Apr 15, 2005 8:15 pm

mb2 wrote:looking at the small internal size of this (and being as i stupidly recently broke my m-ATX psu :oops: ) it makes me wonder about the potential of modding this into a M-ATX psu?
the only possible problem i can see is the 'width' of the board?.. anyone got any dimensions?
makes u wonder why no one produces more powerful m-ATX psus!.. (~280w is the most powerful IIRC.. someone correct me if u know better)

and any word on availablilty or pricing in the uk? ..i'm hoping this 'low raw materials use' idea translates to low cost too!

i'm hoping that nexus take this and mod it with monster heatsinks :)
dimensions approximately: 14,6cm X 11,4cm, max. height 5,5cm

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Post by niels007 » Sat Apr 16, 2005 1:31 am

Are the heatsinks 'ribbed' or purely flat plates of aluminium? When flat, it should be fairly simple to attatch a bigger heatsink to it...

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Post by mb2 » Sat Apr 16, 2005 6:19 am

Tamas wrote:dimensions approximately: 14,6cm X 11,4cm, max. height 5,5cm
hm that 14.6 is the killer like i thought.. it would be rather difficult to mod.. it would need a new case built (ie couldn't go into matX psu shell) and be rotated 90*.. but.. possible

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Post by mb2 » Sun May 01, 2005 2:32 pm

400w green power is available here in the UK (or atleast in '1-3 Days').. for £65.68 inc vat.. rather more pricey than i would have hoped..

is it possible that the Zen is just a Green Power with massive heatsinks?

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