The wonderful new S12: 430 or 500 Watts?

[Aphex]

First off, let me join the celebrations on the release of this fine product(s). And of course the only way to join is to buy one, of course! But which wattage?

Here's my system.

Pentium 4 2.6c HT Socket 478
Asus P4P800 motherboard
1024mb PC3200 DDR SDRAM
GeForce 6800 GT @ Stock (may overclock in the future if I get a NV silencer)
Audigy 2 ZS
Maxtor 80 GB 7200RPM (system)
Maxtor MaxLine II SATA 250GB (FILEZZ)
Pioneer DVR-A08 DVD Burner
Toshiba SD-R1202 CD Burner
Antec TruePower 480W PSU (loud and annoying compared to the rest of my wonderfully quiet setup - THANKS SPCR I LOVE YOU )
Thermaltake Hardcano 13 controlling:

• 3 x 92mm Tek-Chain fans
• 2 x 80mm Thermaltake fans
• Zalman CNPS-7000B ALCu + Fanmate

Now for my dilemma: should I get the ridiculously expensive S12-500 with the newer circuit design (or so I'm told) or the S12-430 with the older design? I've been racking my brains over this. Since it's a $45+ difference, I'd love it if I could get some input.

Thanks in advance.

[m0002a]

The 430 is more than enough power. The 500 is a different design and is noisier.

[sthayashi]

^^^^
What he said. Few systems can even break 200W, let alone 300W. 430 should be plenty.

[Aphex]

Then... why are 500W and 600W power supplies even in the market?

[ET Awful]

Then... why are 500W and 600W power supplies even in the market?

Because people will buy them. It's kind of like the reason cars capable of 200+ MPH are on the market. You have it, but you'll never be able to actually use it.

[ckolivas]

Read the power supply fundamentals. Marketing hype and inflated claims are the reasons.
http://www.silentpcreview.com/article28-page1.html

[sthayashi]

Then... why are 500W and 600W power supplies even in the market?

Because people will buy them. It's kind of like the reason cars capable of 200+ MPH are on the market. You have it, but you'll never be able to actually use it.

That and occasionally, there are people who have legitimate uses for them. Like if you wanted a quad-processor setup, or decide that a 12-drive Raid-array is in your future, or both. In those cases, you might actually need a PSU capable of 500W or 600W.

[ckolivas]

I do know that the full 8 logical processor core of the ppc64 (4 core SMT) uses 750W... but that is not the sort of desktop you or I are likely to ever use

[ilh]

I wish they would put a PCIe connector on the 430 and below. Having to use two 4-pin molexes and an adaptor is messy.

[ET Awful]

Then... why are 500W and 600W power supplies even in the market?

Because people will buy them. It's kind of like the reason cars capable of 200+ MPH are on the market. You have it, but you'll never be able to actually use it.

That and occasionally, there are people who have legitimate uses for them. Like if you wanted a quad-processor setup, or decide that a 12-drive Raid-array is in your future, or both. In those cases, you might actually need a PSU capable of 500W or 600W.

I agree. I was just being a wise-guy. I currently have a 500watt plus PSU simply because it suited my purpose at the time I bought it (pushing the Vapochill unit I was using). However, it's overkill for what I'm doing now, and I have a Seasonic 430 on the way.

[Straker]

that, and it's still possible to put too much load on your PSU either because it's a straight up garbage PSU (rated for say 500W and dies at 250), or its 12V rail is weak and can only supply like 8A.
my pc isn't anything ridiculous but it's still far above average; A64 3200+ with cpu and ram oced and overvolted, X800XT and 3 HDs. and... my PC under load, monitor (17" CRT), laptop, hub and cable modem combined only draw 305W AC.

[Aphex]

But according to my system specs when I run it through this calculator, it says my peak power draw is 395W!! Wouldn't I be pushing it too hard with a 430w then? Keep in mind I also want room to expand to a BTX+PCIe system in the future.... AAAAAAARRRGHHHHGGH!!!! *head explodes*

[sthayashi]

I challenge you to reach peak. It is VERY difficult, if not impossible to get anywhere near peak for a sustained period of time.

Power calculators generally provide BS advice when compared to actual measured results. This is mostly because of gross overestimation. Our recommendations are based on our own experiences as well as what we have measured.

So no, you won't be pushing it too hard.

[tay]

Its really a shame that despite SPCRs best efforts questions like this continue to pop up.

To provide some evidence to back up sthayashi :

SPCR measurements for 3.2 Northwood + 9800XT

Tech report measurements for a dual opteron geforce 6800 Ultra

[sthayashi]

Tech report measurements for a dual opteron geforce 6800 Ultra

Just a reminder: Tech reports numbers are AC power draw, not DC. Even at 85% efficiency (unrealistically high), it's clear that those dual Opterons don't break 300W in DC power draw.

All power supplies are rated and measured for their DC output, not their AC input.

[Wassup Doc]

Get the 430. The clicking emitting from my 500's fan is driving me crazy.

[akwok]

Eh.. What about two 6800 Ultras in SLI and the new Intel/AMD dual cores? Surely that will break 430w easily?

(I am deciding between 430 and 500 too!

[sthayashi]

Eh.. What about two 6800 Ultras in SLI and the new Intel/AMD dual cores? Surely that will break 430w easily?

(I am deciding between 430 and 500 too!

Not easily. A 6800U will do something around 75W. So x2 is 150W for the video cards. Dual core hasn't been measured yet, so there's no good way to determine how much it will draw.

I bet a Dual core CPU will draw less than 200W though. Which means that said system should still be powerable by a 430W PSU.

[akwok]

Ahh. Fantastic.

Another question : I am going to be leaving this computer idle for about 5 months. Should I buy the PSU and use it for a week, then leave it here for 5 months, or should I buy it 5 months later? I am unsure if new/better power supplies will come out in the 5 month period.

Thanks,
+akwok

[sthayashi]

Buy it 5 months later, if you're only going to use it for a week or two now.

Reasons:
1) Something better may be out by then, though it's difficult to say. As my daddy used to tell me, "If I could predict the future, I wouldn't be worrying about money"
2) Assuming nothing better is out, then what you WANTED to will in all likelyhood be cheaper than now.

[ilh]

Or you could leave your machine folding for 5 months.

[mathias]

Then... why are 500W and 600W power supplies even in the market?

Because people will buy them. It's kind of like the reason cars capable of 200+ MPH are on the market. You have it, but you'll never be able to actually use it.

That and occasionally, there are people who have legitimate uses for them. Like if you wanted a quad-processor setup, or decide that a 12-drive Raid-array is in your future, or both.

I actually seriously doubt that it's all that rare. What about highly overvolted CPU's, especially presshot ones? Or peltiers, or volt modded pairs of 6800U's (I'm sure there's a good number of people crazy enough to do that), or any combination of the above?

Plus, all that heat will likely be going through the PSU, just because even much lower rated PSU's don't give us trouble, doesn't mean that they won't for people who do things much differently, eg, leaving very obstuctive fan grills and/or adding perhaps multiple obstructive decorative grills, using cases with only 80mm exhaust fans, extensively using spot cooling instead of optimizing case airflow, not avoiding cases that breathe through a straw, etc etc etc

[sthayashi]

I actually seriously doubt that it's all that rare. What about highly overvolted CPU's, especially presshot ones? Or peltiers, or volt modded pairs of 6800U's (I'm sure there's a good number of people crazy enough to do that), or any combination of the above?

You make a good point and have basically summed up why I never give PSU advice to people who want to overclock. I can't predict how much power a device consumes when people overvolt and overclock (well, in theory, I might be able to work it out, but I actually don't know the formula)

Plus, all that heat will likely be going through the PSU, just because even much lower rated PSU's don't give us trouble, doesn't mean that they won't for people who do things much differently, eg, leaving very obstuctive fan grills and/or adding perhaps multiple obstructive decorative grills, using cases with only 80mm exhaust fans, extensively using spot cooling instead of optimizing case airflow, not avoiding cases that breathe through a straw, etc etc etc

If anything, a lower rated PSU will be more efficient at the given operating range and will be subjected to less heat than a higher PSU. Though it's difficult to say how much this heat difference will affect PSUs power capacities.

[mathias]

If anything, a lower rated PSU will be more efficient at the given operating range and will be subjected to less heat than a higher PSU. Though it's difficult to say how much this heat difference will affect PSUs power capacities.

I didn't say anything about efficiency. I was thinking that higher rated PSU's will be better capable of withstanding high temperatures without destabilizing, because at the power levels they should be designed to be used at, they'd be producing more heat themselves, doesn't matter if it would be producing 32% of 150 watts instead of 30% of 150, it should be expected to withstand 30% of 300-500 watts. Plus, stronger fans, bigger heatsinks and lower chances of stamped grills would help.

[m0002a]

...Plus, stronger fans, bigger heatsinks and lower chances of stamped grills would help...

Yes, the S12-500 has a stronger fan than the 430 and below. But that has been documented to mean more PSU noise. If you don't care about that, then you are probably in the wrong forum.

[ilh]

Yes, the S12-500 has a stronger fan than the 430 and below. But that has been documented to mean more PSU noise. If you don't care about that, then you are probably in the wrong forum.

I'd venture to guess that the S12-500 is quieter than the vast majority of PSUs out there, even if it is a bit louder than the 430 and below. I think my fan has broken in and it seems pretty quiet now. My 7000B at minimum fanmate is louder, as is my Tri-Cool fan at minimum blowing through the 3000B grill (not removed yet), just to put it into perspective. I can hear both of those with my 3000B case closed from 1m, but not the S12-500 without putting my ear within 6 inches of its exhaust. I had thought I would want to swap out the fan for a D12SM-12 I have, but I suspect I won't need to, and I don't even have it under my desk yet.

I'm getting a bit tired of hearing how loud the S12-500 is and how stupid someone would have to be to purchase one, especially from folks who have never heard one. I'm not saying it isn't overkill, but it is not terribly loud either, and mine will not ramp up beyond 1000rpm even folding 24/7, so the noise it does make is absolutely constant.

I would like to see some scientific measurements on the S12-500 here rather than references to one unit that wasn't reviewed because it had some problems (?).

[m0002a]

I'm getting a bit tired of hearing how loud the S12-500 is and how stupid someone would have to be to purchase one, especially from folks who have never heard one. I'm not saying it isn't overkill, but it is not terribly loud either, and mine will not ramp up beyond 1000rpm even folding 24/7, so the noise it does make is absolutely constant.

I would like to see some scientific measurements on the S12-500 here rather than references to one unit that wasn't reviewed because it had some problems (?).

The S12-500 is not necessarily stupid, but it is overkill for "some" of the systems/components that people seem to be using it on. Most of the proposed systems would run extremely well on a S12-380, not to mention a 430.

I would guess that about have of the posters on this forum would sell their mother (well, at least their mother-in-law) into slavery to achieve the difference in PSU noise between the 430 and 500. But we will wait to see the exact measurements in due time.

On other forums, high powered PSU’s and extreme over-clocking are a measure of one’s manhood. On this forum, other considerations usually take precedence, although some of us are equally insane about silence.

[mathias]

Yes, the S12-500 has a stronger fan than the 430 and below. But that has been documented to mean more PSU noise. If you don't care about that, then you are probably in the wrong forum.

Whoa, I'm in the wrong forum for thinking PSU's which may be louder have a reason for existing? I guess that goes double for people here who would actually use them, ie. in a single fan syntem(for which the hypothetical heat endurance would be another plus).

I was clearly giving examples of why they'd be usefull for overclockers, although the better cooling aspect can helpfull for us too, eg with a PSU that is rear instead of bottom intake.

I would guess that about have of the posters on this forum would sell their mother (well, at least their mother-in-law) into slavery to achieve the difference in PSU noise between the 430 and 500. But we will wait to see the exact measurements in due time.

You would guess wrong. No one so far is even willing to live in a sewer for that!

On other forums, high powered PSU’s and extreme over-clocking are a measure of one’s manhood. On this forum, other considerations usually take precedence, although some of us are equally insane about silence.

Owl ears aren't an indication of manhood?

Edit: I'm really perplexed about how a power supply called "Super flower" or "butterfly" can be a symbol of manhood.

[Aphex]

Wow, this thread has certainly exploded from the original 10 replies it had when I last checked it

Well, I finally decided on the S12 500. Why? Here's a couple of reasons.

• In less than a month, I will be upgrading to a SLI setup. Therefore, I want to have the PCIe connector which the 430w s12 does not.
• Future proofing. When I run dual video cards, I want to be sure my power supply can handle it, even 5 years down the road when there will probably be 1 megawatt PSUs

It arrived this morning from newegg. I'm going to install it this evening. Thank you for your input, everybody, and if anyone has questions about the S12-500 just post em here and I'll answer them. Maybe I'll even post some pics if I'm not too lazy

[m0002a]

You would guess wrong.[/url] No one so far is even willing to live in a sewer for that! :)

Hold on there. If my mother-in-law gets sold into slavery, what does that have to do with me living in a sewer? I think you got that backwards.