Verax and fortron power supplys

GamingGod · Post by **GamingGod** » Tue Oct 22, 2002 11:04 am

Hey Mike what do you think about the fortron PSU with the verax fan that they had in that tomshardware 21 psu review? They have them here
http://www.pcsilent.de/en/products/fortron.asp

Post by **MikeC** » Wed Oct 23, 2002 12:51 am

It came out pretty good on the test, but no way to tell without running it myself. I wrote elsewhere that I am dubious about their sound measurement technique. Someone suggest I get a sample to test, but not many EC companies want to fly stuff all the way over here. Are you aware. BTW, that Silicon Audio carries Verax fans & HS? http://www.siliconacoustics.com/80mmfans.html

GamingGod · Post by **GamingGod** » Wed Oct 23, 2002 5:25 am

yea i did see those fans at siliconacoustics. but anyways if anyone wants to post a review or if MikeC gets one and tests it Id like to see the results.

sbehrens · Post by **sbehrens** » Wed Oct 23, 2002 6:31 pm

Hi,

the Fortron/Verax PSU is sold in the US, no need to get it shipped from FRG: http://www.asiint.com/Verax%20pricelist.htm

Verax have a quote on their site at http://www.verax.de/produkte/p_80_pro.html from magazine PC Professional that claims 19.2 dB(A) for their Verax Pro, which is used in that PSU. Without having the actual article it's hard to say whether that's minimum or maximum load, of course.

And I don't know whether a Fortron is a good choice to put a quiet fan in. I'll go through the Forum now in the hopes of figuring out what it is you people use for your "reference" PSU

Shawn

sbehrens · Post by **sbehrens** » Wed Oct 23, 2002 6:53 pm

Hmm .... now I'm looking at what Fortron does. For $5 more than the model THW reviewed, you can get one with a decent grille and APFC: http://www.power4pc.com/proddetail.asp?linenumber=191

Put a Verax in, and it should be nice and quiet. I'm considering that. What's holding me back is that I don't know how a Fortron compares to other PSUs when it comes to electrical noise, rather than fan noise.

Post by **MikeC** » Wed Oct 23, 2002 7:03 pm

your "reference" PSU

It's simply any good quality PSU with a Panaflo 80L running at 5V or similar and devoid of fan grill - wire or stamped metal. Some call it ghetto modding; I've even done it to generic 230 watters; it still lives after more than a year, powering a near silent undervolted P3/800 system. But it recently started coil-squealing, usually a sign of approaching demise. There are nicer PSUs that are more reliable.

Ausone · Post by **Ausone** » Thu Oct 24, 2002 12:19 am

What's holding me back is that I don't know how a Fortron compares to other PSUs when it comes to electrical noise, rather than fan noise.

AFAIK, a Fortran is really a Sparkle, which is generally considered a solid PSU.

crisspy · Post by **crisspy** » Thu Oct 24, 2002 1:35 am

Ausone: AFAIK, a Fortran is really a Sparkle, which is generally considered a solid PSU.

Sorry, haven't done my own homework. Where did you find out that Fortron = Sparkle? If so, might be easier to buy a Sparkle here than a Fortron.

GamingGod · Post by **GamingGod** » Thu Oct 24, 2002 4:50 am

if you put in the model number for the fortron a whole bunch of sparkle power supplies will come up (in google). I noticed that too but wasnt sure if they just had the same model numbers or if they were the same company.

Ausone · Post by **Ausone** » Fri Oct 25, 2002 5:51 am

Where did you find out that Fortron = Sparkle?

I learned it at C&CF forum in Ars OpenForum where frequent references have been made to that fact. For instance, the following remark is found in http://arstechnica.infopop.net/OpenTopi ... 1050957434

Sparkle and Fortron Source merged in 1994? to form the FSP group. Both still produce product under their own name and the FSP group sells under the label Powerman.

crisspy · Post by **crisspy** » Fri Oct 25, 2002 6:12 am

Thanks Ausone, that is very interesting. I do wonder, though I have heard that Sparklepower is a fairly good brand, and the Fortron got top marks on Tom's hardware, if they are still the same. I have a cheapy in my box, came in my case, and when I had it open to cut out the fan grilles I saw a number of empty spots on the PSU board. Things like spots for pin headers where wires were just soldered in instead, or beside, with the pins left out, and places for extra filter caps, inductors, etc. The board is labled for the parts but this is a cheap version, the company might populate the board fully for other clients. So maybe mine isn't PFC, or won't handle as much wattage, or won't meet Euro stds. or or or...

Seen any real side by side comparisons? Same model Sparle vs. Fortron? ...or am I just too wishfull?

Check this out, it also verifies the Sparkle = Fortron issue, and compares a bunch more PSU's under heavy load, although it seems a dated atricle: http://www.anandtech.com/printarticle.html?i=1128

Also see on slashdot: http://slashdot.org/articles/02/10/21/1 ... ml?tid=137
...scroll down and look for "THE WINNER ACTUALLY IS A SPARKLE POWER SUPPLY by honold" which gives info about Fortron/Sparkle model numbers vs. quality.

sbehrens · Post by **sbehrens** » Fri Oct 25, 2002 7:20 pm

Interesting posts on slashdot. One by a shop owner who says that he didn't yet have a Sparkle or Antec returned, and speculates that Sparkle makes PSUs for hospitals, hence their experience with stability, although PC PSUs will be held to lower standards, obviously

I guess I'll go with a Sparkle or Antec, whatever I can find. Put a Verax fan in and see whether I can hear the thing

Post by **MikeC** » Fri Oct 25, 2002 7:31 pm

Just a quick observation: Sparkle is the actual manufacturer; Antec is a marketing company -- they have things built for them by the likes of Sparkle - or whoever gives them what they specify for the best price. They subcontract pretty much everything, much like Dell, for example.

GamingGod · Post by **GamingGod** » Sat Oct 26, 2002 7:13 am

arent sparkles pretty cheap? someone should buy one and modify it(not me im poor) and see how it works out.

testingthis · Post by **testingthis** » Sat Oct 26, 2002 8:54 pm

FYI, after I saw THG's review on the 21 PSUs, I immediately went out and bought a Fortron 350 watt PSU from a local California retailer, Exotic PC. In my efforts to silence or at least quiet my P4 1.7 system, I found that the PSU was indeed a pleasing PSU in terms of its relatively quiet sound. I previously owned an unmodified Enermax 350W EG365P-VE FCA with the fan turned all the way down. I will say that the Fortron was not silent, but was far quieter than the Enermax's "noiseless" solution. However, the noise coming from the 80mm fan within the Fortron was more audible than my 80mm Panaflo fans. The Fortron fan created a slight buzzing sound. Even so, I must repeat that it was quieter than my Enermax. Another interesting note about the Fortron fan was that it kicked into overdrive after 10 to 15 minutes of normal usage of my computer. All I was doing was browsing the Internet. This was a shock and was unacceptable at this point, since the PSU fan in the Fortron now literally sounded like a hair dryer and was nearly two times louder than the Enermax model would sound with the fan turned on high! After letting things cool for about 30 minutes, I tried to use my computer again, but this time, ran 3dMark2001 benchmarks. The same problem with the fan speeding up considerably and increasing quite audibly occurred, this time in only 5 minutes. When I opened up my case, it wasn't even warm inside. The video card (ATI 64mb Radeon) was very warm, not burning to the touch, and the PSU was only slightly warm to the touch. Ambient temperature in my room is about 22 to 25 Celsius. For airflow, my case has 2 Panaflo fans--one in the front and one in back. I have a tower case with the wires neatly tied together to allow for air circulation, so I don't think airflow is a problem. The only other component that emitted any warmth was the Zalman flower heatsink. My Intel sensors showed that the processor temperature was 38 Celsius when the Fortron fan went into overdrive. I don't think 38 degrees Celsius is that hot, especially when I've read about people running their cases with a processor temperature well into the 40s.

I exchanged the Fortron PSU for an exact model replacement and will post my results soon. Perhaps the model I originally had was a defective one, or it needs the case temperature to be much cooler than I suspect is the situation in most silent pc enthusiasts cases. I asked the technician at ExoticPC if they ever got any complaints about any of their Fortron power supplies with regard to noise and he told me that I was the first out of hundreds of PSUs they sold, so I'm optimistic that my unit was just a dud. In an unfortunate coincidence, my video card died on me the same day I got the replacement unit, so I won't be able to post my results on the replacement unit till I receive my repaired video card from ATI. Borrowing someone else's computer sucks. *sigh.

morganw · Post by **morganw** » Mon Oct 28, 2002 10:46 am

Fortron Source = Sparkle = PowerMan

I don't know if PowerMan is a marketing name like Antec, but my FSP supply came branded that way. I built my mother-in-law a computer last Christmas out of parts left over from PII-233 to XP 1600+ upgrade, but swapped the power supply from her new case into my old one.

It came with "NoiseKiller" which is a thermistor-controlled fan speed reducer-- a little PCB is stuck between the main PSU PCB & the fan with the thermistor on the little board strapped to a heat sink. If it hadn't had that, I probably would have gotten a NoiseMagic NMT-2.

Similar power supplies are at http://www.fortron-source.com/atx203.htm

Mine is only a 250W, but running a couple of hard drives, the Athlon, CD-RW and DVD-ROM drives and an old Matrox G200 video card, the fan never seems to run fast.

It came with a stamped-into-the-chassis grill unlike the wire grilles in the link, so I cut that out. The fan was a Yate-Loon 80mm double ball bearing which at low speed was quiet, but I stuck in a Panaflo M1A (medium speed/noise) that matched the CFM of the Yate-Loon.

Verax fans (and NMB and Pabst) might be quieter than Panasonic, but speed-reduced, I wonder how much difference there is? $35 worth?

I've also added another heatsink-mounted thermistor to connect to my Digital Doc 5. I'll report temperatures once I figure out an airflow solution & get it all put back together. I'm working on a "Quiet Giant" using a www.3rsystem.co.kr LandRover case (sold as Ahanix in the states) with a single rheostatted 120mm L1A Panaflo and baffles.

GamingGod · Post by **GamingGod** » Wed Oct 30, 2002 1:54 pm

whoa i like that case thanks for pointing it out, i was thinking of getting the global win 61f1-b but this one is cheaper and it has a door, but i was wondering if a 120mm fan could be modded on to the front instead of the 2x80s. since you have the case could you check for me morganw?

GamingGod · Post by **GamingGod** » Wed Oct 30, 2002 10:03 pm

hey MorganW, I found a review of that case at modthebox.com looks like the only one, anyways i think two 92mm fans would fit in the front nicely but i do have a different question now, it says the hard drives are mounted vertically but i cant figure out how from looking at the pictures, think you could tell me about the hard drive mountings and also how sturdy is the door?

gnollo · Post by **gnollo** » Thu Oct 31, 2002 1:20 am

I have just purchased the
Fortron Source 300 watts VERAX, passiv PFC from pcsilent.de (the same evaluated by Tomshardware), and will let you know as soon as I receive it (I am in the UK so I guess a week should be enough time).

morganw · Post by **morganw** » Thu Oct 31, 2002 2:57 pm

GamingGod-

I found another case with 5.25" bays all the way to the bottom: the Codegen ATX-9001 (also known as CK-9001) which goes for 1/2 the Landrover (US$50 vs. US$100) and has feet. Review at http://www.dansdata.com/cgcase.htm, Mfg. page at http://www.tricodsh.com

The ModTheBox review is awful. It talks about tool-less features, but the Landrover has no tool-free features: no motherboard tray, screws to get side panels off (no thumbscrews, no latched doors).

The bottom bays in the Landrover are set up really wierd. There's room for two 80mm fans blowing sideways on the drives & 3r's page shows a RAID module made for that bay. One of the four mounting positions is just plain missing. That doesn't bother me much because I'm suspending w/ bungees.

I'm not sure about a 120mm in the front. You might be able to mount one to the metal plate that goes in front of the bottom bays (behind the plastic bezel).

The door is reasonably sturdy, but this is a trumped-up PC case, not a real server case. I plan to put a piece of sanded plexi in the back of the door, side lit by a CCFL as I'm doing all ventilation through the rear & want to keep noise from coming out the front. The door is mounted with plastic pegs in plastic holes serving as hinges & the pegs are probably only 4mm in diameter, so it won't take a beating.

GamingGod · Post by **GamingGod** » Thu Oct 31, 2002 8:30 pm

Yea i saw those cases too but im just looking for a pc case that i can fit a few large slow moving fans in, I think ill have the 1 120 in the back and cut out the front (behind the lower 5 bezels) and put 2 90s there and suspend the drive also. Too bad about the door I was hoping it had a nice metal hinge but that seems pretty rare but if it breaks ill just make a new door for it. Thanks for pointing out this case its pretty nice.

morganw · Post by **morganw** » Mon Nov 04, 2002 10:24 am

Found another big cheap case: Maxtop CSF-900. $92 @ newegg.com

It has a 120mm in the back & an 80mm, but looks like room for a 120mm, in the front & drive bays all the way to the bottom.

Not sure if that RAID cage would work for suspended drives....

testingthis · Post by **testingthis** » Tue Nov 05, 2002 11:37 pm

I have the results from the 350 watt Fortron FSP400-60PFN power supply replacement unit. I just got my video card back today and found out that the power supply tends to speed up its fan once the case temperature reaches about 30 degrees Celsius. This is a disappointment to me, since it easily reaches that temperature in my case without me running any intensive applications. After a few minutes, the fan goes back to its normal quiet mode, but seems to speed up again once the threshold of about 30 degrees Celsius is reached again. I have one 60gb 7200 hard drive, a Zalman flower heat sink, and a Radeon 64 mb VIVO video card, and 2 sticks of ram as the main components producing heat. I also have 2 80mm Panaflos and the overhanging 120mm fan(on low speed using the fanmate) over the Zalman as the sources of airflow, so I don't think airflow is a problem, since I'm not undervolting the Panaflos. I'm honestly disappointed in this Fortron model, especially after reading the review on how quiet they were rated in Tom's Hardware Guide.

crisspy · Post by **crisspy** » Wed Nov 06, 2002 12:45 am

Hi testingthis,

seems like time to mod and tweak a wee bit then

It was Rusty who built a duct to capture hot air off his zalman flower, and pull it right out the back with a slow 92mm fan; this setup being his only airflow source for his zalman. You might make a little duct extension from a rear exhaust fan to suck heat from right behind the flower, and blow on it from just in front. Could help those internal case temps quite a bit. A bit of boxboard and some tape would make for an easy proof-of-concept here.

Good luck, and thanks for the Fortron feedback. I will be looking for one myself (or a Sparkle?), but I appreciate the caveat about the fanspeed.

(lightbulb very slowly illuminates above head)
Hmmmmmm.... seems like if the thermistor/fan speed controller in the PSU is calibrated for 30degC, maybe you could tweak it a little with a properly chosen resistor or potentiometer. I don't know what the thermistor's resistance would be, but lets say 10Kohms (insert your mesurement here). Normal thermistors should go down in resistance as temp increases. I.E. lower temp = higher resistance. So put a 2K (your measurement / 5) pot in series with the thermistor, and voila, you can fool the fan into thinking about cool days, in spite of the heat. For all I know I could have the coefficient backwards, then you would pick a very high value pot (your measurement * 10 ?), and put it in parallel. Once again, the net result would be to adjust the 'kick into turbojet' temperature threshhold. Modding the fan volts could work, but it's probably undervolted anyways, and seems like it's low/high with little in between, so you wouldn't want to risk the low speed dropping into a no-spin situation.

Blah blah blah... have fun eh?

testingthis · Post by **testingthis** » Wed Nov 06, 2002 9:20 am

Okay. Thank you for the awesome tips Crisspy. Not sure if I want to void the warranty on a $50 power supply though. Hehe. If it irks me enough though, I think I will.

GamingGod · Post by **GamingGod** » Wed Nov 06, 2002 9:21 am

well thats enough for me, screw fortron and sparkle im getting either an antec of zalman

gnollo · Post by **gnollo** » Thu Nov 07, 2002 4:13 pm

I just received today my Verax FSP300-60 ATV, and I just can't hear it...
I don't know my case temperature (I have a double fan opening at the back, with only one installed at the moment) but motherboard and CPU using the Asus utility stay below 30 degrees Celsius (and I want it to stay that way

).
Now I need to install new silent fans for the case (Panaflo I guess) and think of a heatsink+fan solution for CPU).
I stuck a pen to stop the case fan, and I used the Asus utility to stop the CPU fan for a couple of minutes (setting the fan from automatic to temperature driven) and GOD FINALLY SILENCE!
Funnily enough the fan on the CPU sounds less loud to me than the case FAN! With both going, I really cannot hear the PSU. With both silent I still cannot hear the PSU. I guess I am a happier guy now on the road to silence...
Just my 0,02 $.

testingthis · Post by **testingthis** » Thu Nov 07, 2002 11:12 pm

I would be interested in knowing where you got your Verax FSP300-60 ATV PSU. I'm working with the vendor I got the Fortron from to resolve the noise issue, but if I can't resolve it, I'll get the Verax if it's as silent as you claim it to be. Also, I'd love to see a follow-up posting once you replace your case fans with Panaflos to see if the quieter solution affects your motherboard and CPU temperature much and also if the Verax PSU fan increases in speed and/or sound because of this.

gnollo · Post by **gnollo** » Fri Nov 08, 2002 1:56 am

http://www.pcsilent.de/en/products/fortron.asp

PC Silent also deliver Internationally (pretty sure they do US as well).

A few things that are different on my PSU compared to yours
- the fan (a verax) but you will notice that they also sell a modified one with a Panaflo
- is a 300W, not a 430... that might explain the fan kicking in more often

Also my setup is perhaps different...
I was checking my idle CPU and Mboard after leaving the PC on all night...
CPU: 23 (the temperature has actually improved, perhaps due to better cooling capabilities of the PSU? not sure, perhaps a little early to comment on that...)
Motherboard: 28
The Pentium III doesn't really produce a lot of heat I guess, that makes it perfect for my machine right now...
I am a movie freak and I spend really all the time tinkering with Videocard drivers and DVD players... Right now I use my PC to output DD and DTS to my amp via 6 analogue outputs (5.1) and to output the video to a DLP projector (I get a 6ft by 8ft image... kinda like a little cinema in my bedroom).
I used to play a lot of Computer games, not anymore... ain't got time right now but for movies...

So silence is paramount....
My setup right now
- Maudio Soundcard (Delta 410)
- Network card (any)
- Asus P3B-F motherB
- Pentium III Slot 1 1Gh processor
- 512 MB SDRam
- ATI Radeon 7500 videocard
- Falcon capture card
- 80 GB Seagate IV Barracuda
- Pioneer 104-f DVD Rom
So really not much heat generated, and plenty of room for air to flow around the ATX case...
Not sure how your setup is...
Questions:
- some say the Tualatins are better in terms of heat generation... confirm?
- what would you use to slow down the Panaflos? Any device in particular? I am planning to use two case fans...

testingthis · Post by **testingthis** » Sat Nov 09, 2002 2:37 pm

Very decent rig, gnollo. Yes, your setup is different from mine, but the 300W Fortron I have is actually capable of handling as much as 400W and I know for a fact that my components don't draw enough power to warrant anything more powerful.

I went to ExoticPC yesterday and met with Peter Kim. He replaced the noisy 80mm stock fan in the Fortron with a quieter one. That did that job and my Fortron PSU is at an acceptable audible level now. It's still not silent, but it is consistently quiet now, even when running it at full load with a few benchmarks. Since the warranty is voided because of this slight modification, I'm sure additional modding will make this power supply virtually silent. As a comparison, I'd say that the switch in fans in my Fortron has caused it to be quieter than the Enermax manually adjusted fan control units with the fan settings turned all the way down. Overall, I'm very satisfied with my Fortron power supply now and with ExoticPC's service.

Verax and fortron power supplys

Verax and fortron power supplys

I own the Fortron FSP350-60BN

Fortron like a switching power supply

Sweet

Verax FSP300-60 ATV

Verax FSP300-60 ATV

Fortron revisited