Will I be disappointed with the Seasonic S12 430?

Pipes · Post by **Pipes** » Wed May 25, 2005 1:19 am

Hi everyone!

This is my first post on SPCR, but I've been a reader for quite some time, a poster over at QuietPC.com for a while, and into the silent PC thing for a few years (ever since discovering the Zalman flower for my P3)

After much work (and reading this forum - excellent advice here!) I've got my system to a state where I can barely hear it at all. When I set my machine to shut down at night and get into bed I can't tell when it's turned itself off, and it's only about 1m away from my bed.

I've got an Antec Phantom 350W Fanless PSU and when I first got it, it was quite cool to touch after use - warm I'd say. However a few months on and the thing gets seriously hot. At some point I did a CPU upgrade from 2.8Ghz (533FSB) to 3.4Ghz (800FSB), but it's the Northwood chip and not the Prescott. Also undervolting has brought it down to the same Thermal Guideline as the 2.8 was running at (around 60W). I don't know why it's now heating up so much (CPU temps are fine - 35 degs) and I've actually got the psu running outside of my case at the moment to see if that would improve things (it was cooking everything inside my case!).

It hasn't helped. I have to put gloves on to move the thing after it's been in use, and my temperature reader records temps of up to 55 degrees on the outer metal of the PSU. Seeing as it's only certified to run up to 65 degrees, by the time we hit peak summer I'm not sure whether I want to keep using it.

My question is, do you think I'd be disappointed with the Seasonic SB 430? I've read the reviews and it sounds great, but having become used to virtually no noise will it be clearly audible? I was thinking of mounting it outside the case to keep it as cool as possible so the fan doesn't ramp up any more than it has to. What do you think?

(Sorry for the long first post, any advice would be greatly appreciated though!)

Devonavar · Post by **Devonavar** » Wed May 25, 2005 9:01 am

Hi Pipes, and Welcome to SPCR!!!!!!!!

If your Phantom is getting really hot it suggests that you're loading it quite heavily. If possible, find out how much power your computer is drawing at idle. The easist way to do this is with an external AC power meter, but if you don't have one floating around, try to estimate how much total DC power your system is drawing. If you need help, feel free to post you system specs here.

As long as your idle power is reasonably low, the S12 should be fine for you. Exactly how low you need depends on how good the airflow through your case is (and how much heat has to be exhausted through the PSU), but you can check our review of the S12 for a rough idea of when it ramps up.

lenny · Post by **lenny** » Wed May 25, 2005 9:25 am

If the system specs in your sig is accurate, it shouldn't be drawing more than 150W DC at idle, and that's a very generous over-estimate (my 3200 Winchester with 1GB, 9800 Pro, 1 SATA and 2 optical draws less than 90W (DC) without CnQ enabled, so I added 10W for the additional SATA and 50W for the CPU).

Other than CPU swap, were there any other changes?

If it is only the CPU, maybe you can try underclocking the CPU temporarily to see if temperatures will go down. Change the FSB back to 533 MHz and raise the voltage to whatever it was for the 2.8 GHz - that will make it a 2.26 GHz CPU, much slower than your previous CPU, so the temperature should be at least back to what it was before. It's easier to test than swapping CPU.

Are there also other software changes? Obviously apps like Folding / SETI will eat up lots of CPU cycles (and draw a lot more power).

Edit : Will you be disappointed with the S12 in terms of noise after using the Phantom? Depends. Mounting it outside the case will make the fan run slower. It will also make the fan more audible (no longer muffled by the case). Not sure if you want to find the problem with the Phantom - that will be the cheaper route. Since you don't mind spending money, if you're in the US, try to look for the Kill-a-Watt to measure AC draw (got mine from J&R, not sure if they still have it - froogle for it).

Post by **MikeC** » Wed May 25, 2005 9:56 am

do you think I'd be disappointed with the Seasonic SB 430?

Really depends on the rest of your noisemakers. IE, if your other components are running at the same level or louder than the level of the S12, then no, you generally won't hear any difference.

lenny · Post by **lenny** » Wed May 25, 2005 10:17 am

MikeC wrote:
do you think I'd be disappointed with the Seasonic SB 430?
Really depends on the rest of your noisemakers. IE, if your other components are running at the same level or louder than the level of the S12, then no, you generally won't hear any difference.

pipes wrote:When I set my machine to shut down at night and get into bed I can't tell when it's turned itself off, and it's only about 1m away from my bed.

Unless he lives next to a freeway or railroad track that's pretty quiet to me

Post by **MikeC** » Wed May 25, 2005 11:11 am

lenny wrote:Unless he lives next to a freeway or railroad track that's pretty quiet to me

He says he can't hear it from a meter, but he DOES have 3 120mm fans, the 70-80mm fan on a Zalman VGA cooler and 2 Samsung 2-platter HDDs. Acoustipack helps, and slow fans and suspended drives are quiet, but these things do make noise. Are they making >20 dBA/1m? If so, the S12-430 will not change it much.

lenny · Post by **lenny** » Wed May 25, 2005 11:27 am

MikeC, true. I'll change my remarks from "yes" to "depends".

Operandi · Post by **Operandi** » Wed May 25, 2005 12:28 pm

If it's possible on the P4, you could consider dynamic clock speed control of the CPU by manipulating the FSB.

On my AXP I use speed fan to vary the FSB from 266 to 333MHZ depending on load. It's not exactly "Cool n' Quiet" but takes a few degrees off my idle temp so it should help you lessen you power draw as well.

Pipes · Post by **Pipes** » Wed May 25, 2005 12:53 pm

Thanks alot for the replies so far everyone

MikeC:
I see what you're saying, but here's my fan setup: front and rear 120mm's have a 7V inline resistor on each, and then I ramp them down to 5V with my fan controller which gets them running at 600rpm. They are so quiet that I can stop them and not tell the difference. The 120mm on the cpu heatsink runs at 650rpm at 5V, and is slightly audible but barely. I have done the same with the Zalman fan, 7V resistor + 5V on the controller to bring that down to 900rpm, again slightly audible but barely. The suspended drives are the "noisiest" part on the system, but in the dead of night with no other sound I cannot tell when it shuts down. I just measured my bed to computer and it's 1.4m. And believe me, I'm very fussy when it comes to sound! I'm one of those people that can hear faint noises when no-one else around me can, and wonder what I'm on about

I wish I could provide some sound measurements but I don't have a device, so I'm not sure whether it's making >20 dBA/1m. I did look into buying one but all the ones I found only started their range from 35 dBA upwards! Do you have to pay mega bucks for one that's so sensitive it can measure low decibels?

Devonavar & Lenny:
Unfortunately I don't have a device to check the power being drawn, and I'm over in the UK

Maybe I'll try and find something over here to check it.
I don't know how accurate this is, but according to this website:
http://www.jscustompcs.com/power_supply ... ?cmd=INTEL
My system is drawing 292 Watts! Is that correct?

Here's my detailed system specs:

Intel S478 3.4Ghz Northwood (89W) - but undervolted to 1.30V [according to Radiate this equates to 62.6W, but I have noticed the voltage still seems to go up to 1.38 volts sometimes, so 70.5W]
Antec Phantom 350W
2 x 512mb Corsair DDR Ram CL2
Asus P4P800E-Deluxe mobo
ATI Radeon 9800 Pro 128mb Ultimate
2 x SpinPoint SATA 160Gb Nidec's
Plextor 716-A DVD+RW
Zalman Fan Controller
Sound Blaster 7.1 PCI Card
2 x 120mm AcoustiFan's, 7V inline resistor + ramped down to 5V on controller
1 x 120mm AcoustiFan Dustproof 5V
1 x Zalman GFX fan, 7V inline and then 5V ramped down
Various usb devices

I've cut the fan grills out and taped up the holes in the front of the case for airflow.
Anything else I've missed, just point out.
So what do you estimate the power draw for that?

I'll give that suggestion a go about underclocking back as close to my old 2.8Ghz chip was and check temps of the psu.

Pipes · Post by **Pipes** » Wed May 25, 2005 1:06 pm

lenny wrote:Other than CPU swap, were there any other changes?

I forgot to answer this part

I swapped out the 2.8Ghz 533Mhz P4 for the 3.4Ghz 800Mhz cpu and at the same time I changed my memory. I had 2 sticks of PC2700 just standard ram. I changed to 2 sticks of PC3200 Corsair XMS CL2 ram. They came with heat spreaders on the sticks and they get really hot!
My case temps shot up after installing these parts. I thought I'd be okay by avoiding the Prescott and sticking with Northwood. Undervolting has been my saviour, bringing the temps back down to sensible levels.

Apart from that there were no other changes. I've messed around with fans since, testing out different ones, using those resistors etc, but none of that should matter. I have actually removed a 3rd hard disk I had in the system too, I used to have a mirror drive in there but now I'm only running the 2, so that's even less.

lenny · Post by **lenny** » Wed May 25, 2005 1:30 pm

Pipes wrote:I had 2 sticks of PC2700 just standard ram. I changed to 2 sticks of PC3200 Corsair XMS CL2 ram. They came with heat spreaders on the sticks and they get really hot!

Hmm, does anyone know if this is normal? I was under the impression that DRAM don't really get that hot and heatspreaders are usually more for cosmetics. I must admit it's been a long time since I checked the DRAM temperature on a running system.

What voltage is your DRAM running at?

I googled for a 240V version of the Kill-a-Watt. Found a mention that Watts Up Pro is available in "International Version". But the US version is $130+, at that price you're probably better off just buying the S12-430 and see if it works

Pipes · Post by **Pipes** » Wed May 25, 2005 1:43 pm

I've checked in the bios (I haven't touched any of the settings, they are all on the defaults / auto's) and the "DDR Reference Voltage" is 2.75V
Is that normal?

I've got one of those infra-red handheld temperature devices and just took the side of my case off and measured the temp of the heat spreaders on the ram, they are reading in at 49 - 50 degrees (!)

Edit: My Asus AI Booster util shows the voltage of the DDR is actually running at 2.65V

Oh, and one other thing to mention - when I had the 2.8Ghz chip in, I was actually running it overclocked at 3.2Ghz (21 x 153Mhz) and was getting really good temps still! The Phantom was cool, chip wasn't heating up at all. Yes before you say it - I do sometimes think I should have just stuck with what I had! I thought I had better upgrade to the 3.4Ghz chip before all the Northwood's stopped being sold, and also thought that my temps would pretty much stay the same as it was just 0.2Ghz more plus I'd get 800FSB and HyperThreading

geordie · Post by **geordie** » Wed May 25, 2005 2:18 pm

For measuring power draw, I got something from Maplins for about £15 a year or so ago. Works a treat. It's been quite amusing seeing how much power things like the fridge and tv use too!

I don't have the product code handy, but I remember posting it a while back. A quick search of my posts for something like UK Kill-a-watt should turn it up.

Edit: Just checked Maplins. Product code L61AQ is what I have. Must have been on special offer or the price has gone up. It's £25 now.

Pipes · Post by **Pipes** » Wed May 25, 2005 2:28 pm

Thanks geordie ... I found the link on the post you made but unfortunately maplins have changed their website so your link no longer works! It just forwards to the main page. Any idea what it was called?

Edit: Just seen your edit! I was about to ask if it was that £25 one, ok thanks

Devonavar · Post by **Devonavar** » Wed May 25, 2005 2:45 pm

Pipes: The 292W figure from that PSU calculator is a theoretical maximum for all of your hardware running at their maxiumum power draw. At idle, here's what I'd estimate:

I'm basing these numbers on the setup in this SFF review that uses a comparable motherboard and RAM, a single hard drive, and a 2.8GHz Northwood CPU. Because you've undervolted, this may even be a bit of an overestimate. At idle, that system drew 57W AC. Let's assume 70% efficiency for the PSU in that system (at that load), and guess 40W for the DC load. Now, add the rest of the components:

40W: CPU, RAM, Mobo, 1 HD
Radeon: 30W (based on the approximate idle I've seen for the X800XL, so this probably overestimates your card)
Extra HDD: 7W
DVD+RW: 3W (idle, higher when in use)
SB 7.1: 10W (? probably not this high, but it any more than this would require heavy heatsinks, so it's a good upper guideline)
4 Fans x 2W: 8W (budgeting ~0.2A/fan from the 12V line ... resistors consume energy, so they're included)
various USB devices: Not much. USB isn't designed to provide much power through the cable.

Total: ~100W. That's high, but nothing to worry about. After an extended gaming session you can probably add 30W for the CPU and 40W for the GPU for 170W under load.

It may be that the low airflow in your case isn't ideal for the Phantom, which still needs to breath even though it's fanless. Putting it outside the case where there's no airflow probably doesn't help it either. You might experiment with a low-speed fan directly behind the PSU to see if airflow is the problem. If that doesn't solve it, an S12 may indeed be your best bet.

Pipes · Post by **Pipes** » Wed May 25, 2005 3:09 pm

Thanks for that Devonavar.
What I think I'll do is try and pick up one of those power meters tomorrow to check the idle draw.
I've got the Phantom sat outside the case at the moment - I did think about that, that it might be worse with no air flow. Trouble is if I've got sticks of ram measuring 50 degrees, and the Phantom also measuring 50 (as it is at the moment, while outside the case) having them both in the case just isn't going to improve things.
I remember my temps did jump up quite a bit (maybe 8 degrees?) when I moved from fanned psu to the phantom, but ever since changing to the 3.4Ghz & the new ram they jumped up even more. With the Phantom outside of my case the ram is the hottest component in the system!
I've got idle temps (when I say idle I mean web-surfing temps) of 38 degrees for the case and 35 degrees for the cpu. Bear in mind these are asus p4p temps, so probably have to add on another 7 degrees really.

I do actually still have my old 2.8Ghz chip and pc2700 in another machine. I guess I might have to actually put them back in just for testing, check the draw with those, monitor the Phantom temps. That's a real pain to do though, especially trying to fit the XP120 back on without having to remove the motherboard! But maybe I'll just have to do it. Either that or just underclock the current cpu and then put the old ram back in to test.

Longbow · Post by **Longbow** » Wed May 25, 2005 3:14 pm

my experience, i got a s12-380 first, and later swapped to a phantom 350, and i'm not looking back.

s12 runs really cool n quiet - compare to any fan cooled PSU that is. but it still can't beat a phantom acoustic wise. i have only 2 120mm fan in my case, 1 blowing out, 1 on the CPU cooler, with both fans on 10V the phantom (inside the case, that is) touches really cool, on 6V it's barely warm.

make sure U have decent air flow in the case. U might be much better off switching to a AMD 64 platform, than getting a new PSU.

Post by **Ralf Hutter** » Thu May 26, 2005 5:18 am

Pipes wrote: I don't know how accurate this is, but according to this website:
http://www.jscustompcs.com/power_supply ... ?cmd=INTEL
My system is drawing 292 Watts! Is that correct?

No, that's completely incorrect.

I suggest that with your CPU running 2xCPUBurn, your DVD drive recording, your vidcard running a benchmarking app and your two HDDs transferring a huge bunch of data between them (not that you'd ever be doing anything even remotely close to that in the real world), you will probably be pulling 190-200W. This estimate is based on my own experience running a P4P80-D with a default volted 3.0GHz NW and actually measuring the power draw with a Kill-a-watt meter.

Pipes · Post by **Pipes** » Thu May 26, 2005 10:55 am

Ok I bought the power draw meter and here's the results:

While booting Windows my system was drawing 200W
After Windows had finished loading, idle was 134W
I undervolted using my Asus software to 1.30V and I'm idling at 124W

Devonavar - you said 100W was high!

Ralf - you say to expect 190-200W while doing all of those high intensity tasks you mentioned all at once, but mine was pulling 200 just booting XP!
What's going on?!

I might try installing the 2.8Ghz 533FSB chip with the PC2700 and compare the difference in voltage. Any ideas in the mean time, let me know!

Post by **MikeC** » Thu May 26, 2005 11:20 am

Power draw on startup will often hit high peaks because most things have a surge on startup -- HDDs, PSUs, probably even motherboards. But these are short peaks most any decent PSU can handle fine. Try running a benchmark or some other intensive app that you use often that pushes your system -- and keep monitoring power draw. In any case, I doubt you will see much more than 200W AC power draw -- which is probably 160~170W DC output. The PSU should be generating well under 40W of heat. Still, without any airflow, this is going to get hot. Think about a 40W light bulb after it has been on for a minute or two. Would you want to handle it with your bare hand?

Pipes · Post by **Pipes** » Thu May 26, 2005 11:29 am

I've done the swapover to the 2.8 chip, results:

XP booting = 160W
Idle in Windows = 120W

This is with the default of 1.60V on the cpu core, I haven't undervolted so I don't have a reading for that.

MikeC - regarding the surge, I see what you mean but by the time that Win XP screen is up and the system is loading surely all the startup surges will have been over? The "booting" power figure I mentioned lasts all the way up until Windows finishes loading all programs once I'm within the environment.
I see what you mean about the bulb, maybe I need to put the Phantom back in the case so it benefits from chassis dissipation and the mild exhaust air flow.
I'll run some intensive tasks and see what happens.

Pipes · Post by **Pipes** » Thu May 26, 2005 2:14 pm

Mike, you were right it didn't go over 200. Results at load (CPU Burn)

2.8Ghz 533FSB (1.60V Default) = 176W
3.4Ghz 800FSB (1.35V Undervolted) = 187W

The Phantom heated up more than I remember even with the old cpu in, although it is still outside the case which I guess doesn't help.

I wonder if maybe taping up all of the holes on the front of the case reduced my airflow more than I realised? Now everything goes through my dust filter which is good, but maybe I got more air in through the front than I expected.

Post by **MikeC** » Thu May 26, 2005 2:28 pm

Here's what I would try:

Put the PSU back in the case. Increase the speed of your exhaust case fan as much as you can without making an audible difference (or with as little noise increase as possible). Then open up the highest CD bay cover -- breaking off the metal flap inside as well if it's still there. This will cause some additional air to flow in through that CD bay opening and be blown out the back, and it will go across a pretty big area of the PSU external surface while doing so. It should help.

Dust is less of an issue when you're higher up off the ground, and you can always just go inside for a quick dust-off every couple months -- or whenever you think of it. I know some feel it is critical, but it's not, in my experience, as long as you dust occasionally. If you are a "power user" you will notice and investigate any ill effects of dust long before it becomes a serious problem.

Devonavar · Post by **Devonavar** » Fri May 27, 2005 6:01 pm

Pipes wrote:Devonavar - you said 100W was high!

I meant it was high for an idle draw. Still, 134W is pretty far off. Sorry about that. I guess my assumption that the R9800 would be similar in idle to the X800XL was off; that's the only place I can see that might have caused that amount of error.

Your airflow is minimal, which means you may see the Seasonic ramp up a bit under load. On the other hand, the Seasonic may provide enough additional airflow to cool your case back down again. Your best/cheapest option is probably to find some way to increase airflow around the Phantom. Mike's suggestion of removing the top CD bay cover is a good place to start.

lenny · Post by **lenny** » Fri May 27, 2005 8:41 pm

Pipes, don't forget you're measuring AC draw. Factor in DC efficiency (pretty high for the Phantom as I recall - check the review) and you can figure out what's the DC draw as well as heat generated.

autoboy · Post by **autoboy** » Fri May 27, 2005 9:22 pm

whats wrong with strapping a fan to the power supply that runs at 5v. If you went to the seasonic you would have another fan anyways. this way you could control the quality of the fan you are putting in as well as keep it from ramping up like the seasonic might under your rather high loads.

Devonavar · Post by **Devonavar** » Sat May 28, 2005 11:31 am

Just saw Lenny's post, and he's right, that's AC. My estimate is DC. According to our Phantom 350 review, efficiency is ~78% when drawing 134W AC. 134 x 0.78 = 104W. I feel vindicated. I also need to revise what I said above. At load, 200W AC (Gotta count VGA load too), efficiency is ~83%, so guess 200W x 0.83 = 166W DC. I doubt this is enough to ramp up the S12 significantly, even with poor airflow.