Anyone else have heat issues with the Seasonic S12 series?

BoB-O · Post by **BoB-O** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 6:14 pm

Hey all,

I've mentioned in other threads that my Sesaonic S12 is dumping heat into my case out the little back and side vents. I'm wondering if I'm the only one. Anyone else notice this? If so, did you replace it and with what?

Thanks,
BoB

frankgehry · Post by **frankgehry** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 8:28 pm

Here is another thread about this issue.
http://forums.silentpcreview.com/viewto ... ht=#205929

And another.
http://forums.silentpcreview.com/viewto ... ht=#201479

Oliver · Post by **Oliver** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 9:19 am

Yes, I noticed that the air coming out the vents that face the front of the computer, made my optical drive very hot! I commented on this in the SPCR Forum Article discussion thread about the S12 430w review (towards the end of the thread). I was told that I might have a negative pressure so that air is getting sucked back into the case through the power supply. That is really a wrong idea of what is happening. Fact is it has big holes in the back. Fact is there is nothing that wants it to vent out honeycomb shaped back holes any more than it wants it to vent out the slats facing the computer front! The thing positively really gets my optical drive really hot. So , I permananetly blocked those vents (but not the one that faces the right side of the case). I think it makes my 3 volt line bob up and down a 2/100 of a volt every 15-30 seconds, and my 12v bob 6/100 of a volt.
The 5 v stays steady.
Top front of the case not nearly as hot after doing this.
Optical drive much, much , much cooler.

Oliver · Post by **Oliver** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 9:22 am

Oh, and I do not think it makes my s12 fan run particularily faster. Seems the same to me (meaning I notice no difference).
And there is another way of looking at it. That is that warm air is shot straight out the back, and does not recirculate (thus preventing the fan to spin up inside the PSU).

BoB-O · Post by **BoB-O** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 12:43 pm

Oliver wrote:Yes, I noticed that the air coming out the vents that face the front of the computer, made my optical drive very hot! I commented on this in the SPCR Forum Article discussion thread about the S12 430w review (towards the end of the thread). I was told that I might have a negative pressure so that air is getting sucked back into the case through the power supply. That is really a wrong idea of what is happening. Fact is it has big holes in the back. Fact is there is nothing that wants it to vent out honeycomb shaped back holes any more than it wants it to vent out the slats facing the computer front! The thing positively really gets my optical drive really hot. So , I permananetly blocked those vents (but not the one that faces the right side of the case). I think it makes my 3 volt line bob up and down a 2/100 of a volt every 15-30 seconds, and my 12v bob 6/100 of a volt.
The 5 v stays steady.
Top front of the case not nearly as hot after doing this.
Optical drive much, much , much cooler.

How did you block them? Tape? Did you happen to ask Seasonic about this?

Thanks,
BoB

patord · Post by **patord** » Thu Sep 08, 2005 9:12 pm

The whole idea of having some venting holes in the front of those Seasonics is for pressure reasons as Frank pointed out in his post links.

Think of it this way. When you put a hole in can of oil, you make a hole at the other end so that air pressure can equalize when you pour it. The holes in the front of the Seasonic is to alleviate back pressure due to your chasis having insufficient (negative or positive) air pressure.

Blocking the ALL the front holes is a bad idea for longevity. Seasonic has been building power supplies for a long time for good reason. If anything leave a few of them open.

Oliver · Post by **Oliver** » Fri Sep 09, 2005 11:08 am

Look the thing absolutly made my optical drive cook!

The holes may also be there to provide for a design that perhaps needs air blowing over the big things with copper wire wrapped around them. There are 2 in front of the vent that faces the front of the case and 1 in front of the mini-vent that faces the right side of the case. Maybe they don't want stagnant air behind them, and it is not as fancy as your oil can analogy?

I think it would be nice if those big things with wire were positioned towards teh honeycomb back where the hot air is suppossed to go!

Post by **NeilBlanchard** » Sat Sep 10, 2005 7:38 am

Hello,

Since the S12 series is one of the most efficient PS lines around, how much heat do you think is actually coming out of this small vent? Don't you think that most of the air flow (and therefore most of the heat) is going out the back?

Also, optical drives generate their own heat -- sometimes quite a bit! I have taken disks out of drives and they are quite warm to the touch. I very much doubt that the PS made them hot -- especially since the PS in question is not a SeaSonic...

Lastly, there are many PS's that have vents on the inside of the computer case -- look at the Fortron Zen, fer cryin' out loud! Don't these heat up the inside of the case? I think that there are several other, much more significant sources of heat inside the typcal computer case, that do a lot more warming than a 80%+ efficient SeaSonic!

Given that the SeaSonic is so cool-running, any air flow out this back vent might actually help cool the optical drive!

nick705 · Post by **nick705** » Sat Sep 10, 2005 8:21 am

NeilBlanchard wrote:Hello,
Since the S12 series is one of the most efficient PS lines around, how much heat do you think is actually coming out of this small vent? Don't you think that most of the air flow (and therefore most of the heat) is going out the back?

Well, he's already said that blocking the front holes fixed the problem (at least from the optical drive's POV), so I guess the evidence is clear... we need to accept that there is an issue here, in this particular situation at least.

I don't think blocking the vents is a good idea, but on the other hand you shouldn't be expected to have to choose between the longevity of your optical drive and that of the PSU - if this is a common occurrence then it has to be considered a design fault, and a bad one at that.

@Oliver: could you describe the overall setup of your case and its fans? It does seem fairly unavoidable that the lower the pressure inside the case (relative to outside), the higher the proportion of air that will be vented out through the front of the PSU - maybe even to the extent that the rear grille actually behaves as an intake if you have an unusual amount of negative pressure...

frostedflakes · Post by **frostedflakes** » Sat Sep 10, 2005 8:24 am

IIRC, in another post you mentioned you had a WD Raptor mounted in one of the 5.25" bays. I'd imagine this contributes much more heat to the 5.25" area than a few small vent holes in the Seasonic.

BoB-O · Post by **BoB-O** » Sat Sep 10, 2005 8:43 am

frostedflakes wrote:IIRC, in another post you mentioned you had a WD Raptor mounted in one of the 5.25" bays. I'd imagine this contributes much more heat to the 5.25" area than a few small vent holes in the Seasonic.

I thought of that, too. So I unplugged it. Same issue. Also, I can actually feel the heat radiating out of the vents. Like Nick said, let's just face the facts that there is a problem. I don't think everyone will experience it. I, like Oliver, happened to tickle things just right.

BoB

nick705 · Post by **nick705** » Sat Sep 10, 2005 8:45 am

frostedflakes wrote:IIRC, in another post you mentioned you had a WD Raptor mounted in one of the 5.25" bays. I'd imagine this contributes much more heat to the 5.25" area than a few small vent holes in the Seasonic.

sigh... why is everyone so keen to disregard what he's actually said? Has it become a "we will not countenance disrespect for the peerless Seasonic!!!" zone...?

Vents open = hot optical drive
Vents blocked = cool optical drive

Really, how much more plainly could he have put it?

I'm not saying there is necessarily anything wrong with the Seasonic, but there's obviously something amiss here, and it would be interesting to get to the bottom of it...

/edit: forgot the smilies, so that came over a bit more bad-tempered than I intended...

frostedflakes · Post by **frostedflakes** » Sat Sep 10, 2005 9:28 am

I just look at it like this: There are so many factors that could be contributing to high optical drive temps that it's impossible to blame one particular component.

I liken it to somebody buying a passive heatsink for their CPU, using low quality thermal paste, installing the heatsink in a case with little airflow over the CPU area, and then blaming the heatsink for their high temps.

Sure, the S12 is going to dump heat out of the internal grills, as would any 120mm fan power supply. The grills are to ensure that air is flowing over the entire PCB, and not just the back of the unit. This is not a design flaw -- it's good engineering. How it reacts with case airflow in a particular setup is up to the user, not Seasonic. Going back to my previous example, if you buy a passive heatsink and use it in a case that has poor airflow, don't blame the heatsink. It doesn't help that the 5.25" area, in many cases, has little to no airflow. Instead of blocking the vents, which could potentially reduce the reliability of the S12, you may want to consider opening up the optical drive area. Assuming your case has strong negative airflow, this would allow it to pull air through the front of the 5.25" bays, eliminating the airflow deadspot that is currently there.

frankgehry · Post by **frankgehry** » Sat Sep 10, 2005 9:57 am

Fortrons, Antecs, and OCZ Modstreams, other than the primary exhaust, have very few vents if any. The grill is to insure that the psu case is less restrictive and allow the fan to run at a slower speed. - FG

nick705 · Post by **nick705** » Sat Sep 10, 2005 10:05 am

frostedflakes wrote: Sure, the S12 is going to dump heat out of the internal grills, as would any 120mm fan power supply. The grills are to ensure that air is flowing over the entire PCB, and not just the back of the unit. This is not a design flaw -- it's good engineering. How it reacts with case airflow in a particular setup is up to the user, not Seasonic.

This is the point that we need to establish - if there's nothing particularly unusual about the OP's setup, and the Seasonic is still dumping so much heat internally that one or more of the PC's other components are compromised, then it is most definitely a design flaw. I don't think your CPU heatsink analogy holds water - as far as I know Seasonic haven't stipulated any specific environmental conditions required for the PSU to work correctly, as regards relative pressure or anything else (apart from using common sense of course), and the end user shouldn't be required to second-guess them in this regard.

It doesn't seem from what's been said as though there were many factors contributing to the high temps - just altering the one factor apparently made a dramatic difference.

It's probably a bit pointless to speculate without more info on the overall system though - I'd agree that getting closer to a neutral pressure situation would be the first thing to try, and as people aren't reporting dying optical drives all over the place it probably is something peculiar to this particular setup...

Oliver · Post by **Oliver** » Sat Sep 10, 2005 5:35 pm

I tried to make the airflow into the case equal the airflow out of the case by adding a 90mm fan at the front intake and a 90mm fan in the side panel. Then there is the 120mm in the case rear, and the seasonic s12 430w 's 120mm. The load is light, so the ss 430w is slow mover. Every fans is manually controlled. I run the 90's faster than the 120 to try to make up for the big airflow potential of the 120s. I can only guage the actualy airflow with my hand and the RPM monitors. But I do not know how accurate those RPMs that are reported after they go thru one of those zalman fanmates. [ Can someone answer that for me please? Do you get accureate readings on the mobo headers that fanmate alters the voltages going out the the fans hooked up to it?]

The heat would happen even if I put the 120 on its slowest(5v) , and the 90s on there fastest (12v). THat is positivie case pressure if anything!

I am talking about temp of optical drive when it was not doing anything but just sitting there. Pop the side panel off and put my hand on it's backside.

The Optical heat would not happen when using another noiser stock PSU that is closed except on the case's front side, and then uses a slow 80mm fan to pull the air straight out the back of PSU.

The optical drive heat would happen when I had a fan blowing down on the CPU heatsink (normal position).

Finally, after blocking just the larger vents facing the optical drive (facing the front side of case), and putting my hand on the material I used to block it, I do not notice that any hotter than the contiguous side of the PSU that faces the computer case's left side. But to be fair, I put my hand on the 2 sides when the computer had idled and done regular light workload. SO I would have to play some video games and do a CPU burn in and then test to know for certain whether my blocking material is hotter or not than the surrounding PSU walls.

And I agree, in no way should anyone block anything on a PSU as it may be a fire hazard, in addition to reducing the longevity of the PSU.

I only did it because I am tired, and was going to throw it in the trash as it was past my 30day return period.

In conclusion, the freebe PSU that came with my case keeps the front top of my case much cooler. But unfortunately it does not evacuate the heat from the CPU area by creating a nice localized negative pressure as only a 120mm fan directly above that area can (as is the case for the s12 430watter).

Finally, I really don't think I have a big negative case pressure, if anything I have tested this with a postive case pressure.

And of course maybe I have a wacked setup, so your mileage may differ.

Cheers

nick705 · Post by **nick705** » Sun Sep 11, 2005 3:29 am

Well, frankly I'm stumped on this one then. If the case is actually running under positive pressure, I'd have thought it would be very hard for much heat to emerge from the front of the PSU, especially when you consider the relative openness of the vents.

You've suggested you're deliberately using the Seasonic to evacuate heat from the CPU - maybe that's what's ultimately responsible, not the internal heat from the PSU itself. It's not really that advisable anyway given the heat generated by modern CPUs - apart from anything else, it just makes the PSU fan more likely to ramp up. Have you tried running the rear case fan at full speed and switching the others off, to see what happens? (yes, that's negative pressure but it seems that theory doesn't stand up anyway).

Is the case unusually short from front to back, so there's a smaller than usual clearance between the front of the PSU and the optical drive, and that blocked with cables and so on? Maybe in that situation the natural air circulation in the area would be stifled, leading to the heat buildup...(grasping at straws a bit here though)...

It seems a shame to junk the Seasonic if you're happy with it in other respects... if all else fails, would it be possible to somehow open up a vent in the 5.25" bay area as frostedflakes suggested, so the hot air has somewhere to go? If you mounted the optical drive in the lowest available 5.25" bay, and had some sort of duct to the front above it you shouldn't get such a heat buildup...this would only work on a doorless case of course, unless maybe you cut a blowhole in the top panel (*shudders*), and you'd have to completely rethink the airflow through the case as a whole.

I suppose the airflow patterns and pressure zones inside any case are typically so chaotic that it's hard to predict with certainty what will happen, so trial and error is the only surefire method...

jabba · Post by **jabba** » Sun Sep 11, 2005 4:02 am

i dont' think seasonic is gonna put holes in a place for the hell of it. extra holes is for components that need extra cooling, and sometimes those holes are on the backside. i would just move my optical drive lower if it made that much of an increase in temperature.

the way i figure it, unless the optical drive is a plextor or something, it's worth less than the PSU. if the optical drive fails, at least my computer still starts, in the scheme of things.

Bluefront · Post by **Bluefront** » Sun Sep 11, 2005 5:49 am

jabba.....I think you give the PSU makers too much credit for their designs. I suspect many/most of the PSU makers care about their own product first, and "who cares" what happens to the rest of the computer.

Firstly PSU makers want the thing to sell, and to return the highest profit. This means, among other things, a PSU with the fewest returns. Pretty obvious that cooler PSUs will last longer....that means higher fan speeds, and more vent holes. Cooler running internal PSU components are another more expensive option.

I've always wondered at the internal PSU vent holes....just how important they are. I usually just cover them over with duct tape, figuring if the PSU heats up, it's own fan speed will increase. This solution has worked without trouble for me.

Oliver · Post by **Oliver** » Sun Sep 11, 2005 9:10 am

jabba,
I would think the family photos and work people back up to optical disk is worth a million times more than the computer. Of course you can test the disks you burn for errors, but I think it best not to push the luck. These drives are having their own ventalation systems these days. And I was just complaining about the heat at idle. let alone burning.

Bluefront's opinion makes sense to me.

nick705,
Yes the drive was a full length one (not one of the shorter types) Case was not the biggest. The distance between the two was not huge but I think it was at least 2 inches.

I like it with the duct blocked, and I am not taking apart my blocking stuff, to test further setups at this time.

The power supply did not ramp up from the blocking as far as I can tell, but I am not being scientific about blocking and listening.

I suggest you all get an idea of the heat getting thrown out of the PSU by putting your hand on the right side of the case, and then the left side of the case. In my case I notice a difference (the right is hotter). And that is just from the little vent on the right of the PSU that I haven't blocked. And there are no vents on its left. I mean this is a very simple test that you all can do (but it might not be as apparent if the front bigger vents are not blocked ( I did not think to compare the left to the right before I blocked the front vents)).

I feel the need to run intake fans because I do have the intakes filtered.
So maybe when I take all the filters appart, I will test the no intake fanned setup then. I think to test now just by stopping the fans would be unfair.

Oh, the optical was in the second slot down from the top.

jabba · Post by **jabba** » Sun Sep 11, 2005 3:29 pm

You could email Seasonic and ask them what those vents are for.

jermaink · Post by **jermaink** » Wed Sep 14, 2005 4:56 am

How would a Seasonic S12 react with an Antec P180, where there is a separate bottom chamber for the PSU, where a 120mm fan blows right at it?

clarkkent333 · Post by **clarkkent333** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 10:43 am

I'm getting the same heat venting issue with my S12-380 in a Sonata case. It makes the top of the case warm to the touch and keeps my optical's nice and toasty. I'm emailing Seasonic about a replacement.

BoB-O · Post by **BoB-O** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 11:04 pm

clarkkent333 wrote:I'm getting the same heat venting issue with my S12-380 in a Sonata case. It makes the top of the case warm to the touch and keeps my optical's nice and toasty. I'm emailing Seasonic about a replacement.

Let me know what happens. Seasonic tech support usually takes several days to respond to each one of my e-mails. They offered me a SuperSilencer 400W, but I don't think that will have enough peak 12V amps to start up my system. They say they have no inventory of the 460W. I'm waiting to hear if they'll get more or if I can just return the S12-430 to them.

Thanks,
BoB

Post by **MikeC** » Sat Sep 17, 2005 12:25 pm

Why do I think this is much ado about nothing?

OK, so the back of your CD drive and the top of your case are warm. Why does this matter? Has this caused any failure or misbehavior that you've experienced or even heard about?

It seems to me that the holes are there because the 120 fan + back exhaust grill cannot assure adequate cooling of all the components in the PSU, epecially along that back top edge. (Those coiled wire thingies are inductors, btw). How will airflow from the 120mm fan get there w/o those holes? It can't, it will simply take the shortest path to exit -- which does not include that back corner.

From a PSU cooling point of view, it is the 120mm PSUs w/o those front holes for extra airflow that are flawed. Guaranteed, if you block those holes, that area will not get any airflow, and those components will run hotter. The 120mm PSUs that have that side completely blocked probably do have heat issues for components located in that area.

OK, now that I've prodded the hornet's nest, adios!

frankgehry · Post by **frankgehry** » Sat Sep 17, 2005 3:51 pm

If you have hard drives mounted in the top two or three bays as one member reported there is a real problem. I wouldn't put a t-balancer or other critical/expensive component nearby either. Why didn't seasonic put the hot components in the air flow instead of the dead spots? They advertise "longer lifespan due to high cfm, lower rpm and strategic fan placement". They don't mention strategic front vent placement. What about strategic hot component placement?

Keep posting the tech support replies.
Bring back the super silencers. - FG

antec tp2.0 480w

no vents in front (top of photo)
inductors and other components exposed to air flow
small fan controller pcb does not cover exhaust grill

seasonic s12 380w

vents in front (top of photo)
heat sinks partially cover inductors and other components
large transformer near front panel
fan controller pcb covering part of exhaust grill

Conclusion: While reviews typically attribute efficiency, fan controller, and heat sinks to quiet operation, s12 front vents undoubtedly reduce psu case air flow impedance providing better air flow while recirculating heat into the computer case. There is no evidence that components in the antec are not properly cooled.

Oliver · Post by **Oliver** » Sun Sep 18, 2005 12:04 pm

MikeC wrote:Why do I think this is much ado about nothing?

OK, so the back of your CD drive and the top of your case are warm. Why does this matter? Has this caused any failure or misbehavior that you've experienced or even heard about?

Though I cannot prove it was not incidental, I believe my original optical drive really shook more and made greater vibartional noise when it was installed next to the s12 430. I swapped out the s12 for the non-front vented noisier stock PSU, and though the optical still went through certain vibrations at certain RPM, it was much less. Now , it may have vibrated less because the optical was new and was getting broken in (I doubt it), and it did vibrate in either case, but I think it was a whole lot more when it got hot. How could that make sense, I sure don't know. Anyways, I RMAd the optical, and got a different model, so I cannot test now that I have closed off the front vents to be certain.

By the way , I was putting in the same set of cd/dvds for my judegement above.

Though the optical drive was probably defective, the vibration was tremendous when it was next to the s12 430, but it may have been incidental. That's no bull.

frankgehry · Post by **frankgehry** » Sat Sep 24, 2005 9:19 pm

I just noticed that the 500/600w S12 has half as many vent slots in the front panel as the lower power models. As far as I know the heat venting problem has only been associated with the 430w/380w/330w versions. (Assuming that the photos in the 500/600w review are up to date) - FG

Post by **NeilBlanchard** » Sun Sep 25, 2005 10:54 am

Hello,

I think that we need to see some facts on this: what are the temps of the exhausted air, front and back from these Seasonic PS's? What amount of air flow are we talking about? How are the temps in the optical drives being measured?

Has anybody stuck their hand into the air flow coming out the back and actually felt noticeably hot or even warm air coming out? If there is anything to this theory, how about installing a baffle to prevent the air flow from reaching the optical drives?

I need to see some plausible data on this. All I have seen so far is suppositions and/or guesses.

Post by **MikeC** » Sun Sep 25, 2005 2:44 pm

Oliver wrote:Though I cannot prove it was not incidental, I believe my original optical drive really shook more and made greater vibartional noise when it was installed next to the s12 430.... Though the optical drive was probably defective, the vibration was tremendous when it was next to the s12 430, but it may have been incidental. That's no bull.

Actually that is bull. If optical drive was defective and vibrated, that's self-explanatory. The S12 had nothing to do with this. I've played with many a hot system and never noticed any change in CD drive noise due to heat.

Anyone else have heat issues with the Seasonic S12 series?

Anyone else have heat issues with the Seasonic S12 series?

s12 clarification