Antec NeoHE "High-Efficiency"

[jaganath]

Really, I think 15 pages on this topic is enough. I'm a little weary of this thread continually resurfacing at the top of the PSU forum like a poo that refuses to flush. Anyone with problems with a NeoHE, follow the instructions outlined by AntecRep. Anyone with further comments on this saga please to post in the Consumer Advocacy NeoHE thread.

[swiharta]

no its not enough. These NeoHE psu's are the biggest pieces of crap I could ever imagine. They require you to draw a whole lot of power for them to stay on, I have only heard of a couple people who haven't had to plug in an unreasonable number of components and fans to even allow the psu to start up. I have two of them that came in p150 cases, both of them are affected and only start up with a high power load, regarless of which rails I have them plugged into. I have tried them on three motherboards with the exact same results, so whatever this ASUS incompatibility is, I don't care because its not even the main issue, or possibly it never even was an issue. The problems on the ASUS boards were probably the same problems I've had on my three motherboards, which are two Epox and one Asrock, all with different chipsets. Anyhow, there will never be enough posts on this topic, until a class-action lawsuit comes and I get some revenge on Antec for not only selling me a defective product, but CONTINUING to sell the things! This, I find unbelievable and unforgivable.

[qviri]

Lawsuits sound a bit harsh. They haven't set your house on fire, and the specs do say that it is ATX 2.2 compliant. Due to the mess that Intel created with the ATX specs for their Prescotts, ATX 2.2 PSUs are basically allowed to act up like that.

Now what you could do is to not buy the NeoHE, or the P150, or anything else Antec comes up with unless it's been proven without doubt that the product actually works. Good ol' marketplace pressure.

[TomZ]

the specs do say that it is ATX 2.2 compliant. Due to the mess that Intel created with the ATX specs for their Prescotts, ATX 2.2 PSUs are basically allowed to act up like that

You seem to be saying that the problem with NeoHE's is Intel's fault, but we don't see the same issues from other PSU manufacturers. Where in the spec do you read where NeoHE is following the spec in a way that causes these issues?

[qviri]

See this post by MikeC:

Intel's own ATX12V specification calls for the PSU to have a minimum load of 1A on the 12V line.

It also turns out that some recent vintage motherboards have a bit of a delay before the 12VDC power is provided to the processor.

[TomZ]

I don't buy the argument that the ATX specification is to blame for the NeoHE problems. The spec. doesn't say that PSUs must have a 1A minimum (not that I can find at least), nor does it state that motherboards must consume 1A immediately at startup.

[Red Baron]

I just got a P150 with the NeoHE430 power supply. It would not work with my system at first, but I was able to eventually get it working by first adding additional fans and later a 100 Ohm 10W resistor the the offending 12V line that was not drawing enough current.

My system
P150 w/ neohe430 (0511 date code)
Gigabye GA7VRXP ver 1.1 bios R10
AthlonXP 1700+ (80mm fan at 7V)
2x512MB
64MB GeForce Ti200
2 WD 600BB
1 CDRW
1 DVD
tricool on low (no other case fans)

[qviri]

I don't buy the argument that the ATX specification is to blame for the NeoHE problems. The spec. doesn't say that PSUs must have a 1A minimum (not that I can find at least), nor does it state that motherboards must consume 1A immediately at startup.

I'm not saying the ATX spec is entirely to blame -- nothing is preventing Antec from exceeding the spec -- but because the spec is phrased like it is, there are no grounds for a lawsuit. Antec claims the PSU is ATX 2.2 compatible and it is; that's the end of that story.

[JJ]

After the second NeoHE (A3 at s/n label, s/n starting 0512) that do behave badly, as it requires much more than stated 1A @ +12V line to power on

Ah, the saga continues. Stay tuned, I'm sure the A5 or A6 or A107 revision will _really_ be fixed. In the meantime, follow these 15 easy steps to RMA your PSU. What an embarassing clusterfuck this whole Neo HE disaster has been for Antec.

[pony-tail]

RMA is obviously a lot easier in the US than in Australia .
Certain posters in this forum should remember that not everybody lives in the US or Canada , and things
become proportionately more complex with the increase in distance .

[GeezerMan]

Hi guys, new member here. Looks like a great forum. I'm switching to a new Antec P150 case for my Asus A8N-E mobo, Athlon 4200+ X2, 2 drives, 6800GS video card, HDTV card, DVD rom, DVD burner, floppy, Artic Cooling 64 HSF. The case has the revised Neo HE 430 watt power supply, has the A next to the serial number, made in December 2005. I also have a almost new Antec TruePower 2 550 Watt power supply that I'm currently using. Either one would be more than enough power for me. Looks like there still may be issues with the revised Neo 430 watt in use with the Asus A8N-E. Is the recommendation to go with the Truepower II 550 Watt? I sure like the modular plugs of the Neo design.
Thanks

[TomZ]

Just ordered and received a new P150 today, and unfortunately, it still has the "unfixed" power supply.

I'm pretty disappointed that Antec still has these units being shipped to customers.

Edit: This unit also has a broken warranty sticker. I'm sorry, but the explanation of the sticker being weak and not placed correctly is pure BS. The break is clearly along the line where the PSU lid would be opened. It is obvious that the unit was opened at the factory after it had been fully assembled.

[MikeC]

See this post by MikeC:

Intel's own ATX12V specification calls for the PSU to have a minimum load of 1A on the 12V line.

As TomZ said, I was wrong about this -- said so already in the link original post, but to be safe, here it is again: 1A on the 12V line is not a requirement in the ATX12V v2.xx spec, but it is what Intel assumes in various typical output load distribution examples. It is very common.

[frankgehry]

Memories are short at spcr, and if anyone has taken the time to read the intel spec, it clearly states that “this document is provided as a convenience only and is not intended to replace the user's independent design and validation activity.” If antec wishes to claim “so highly efficient (up to 85%), and would also like to capitalize on meeting intel's atx 2.2 spec, they should also assume responsibility for making sure that their power supplies work with intended system configurations. Unfortunately for antec, they chose to release an untested product. Furthermore, antec (spcr's sponsor) has dribbled information through spcr, like the unbelievable “warranty sticker broken during shipment”, and oh, we were just following the intel spec argument, and by the way, the antec neo he is not the only psu that won't boot with minimal system configurations. This is inevitably what happens when a marketing company like antec tries to capitalize on technology and specifications from other companies and attempts to push it through sponsor sites. How pathetic.

[sonuvbob]

Am I the only one whose NeoHE warranty sticker came mangled, but not torn?

[Devonavar]

oh, we were just following the intel spec argument, and by the way, the antec neo he is not the only psu that won't boot with minimal system configurations.

Actually, these arguments came from SPCR itself. The NeoHE was just the catalyst that sparked investigation into the problems. The Intel spec argument is our own speculation, and the information about other PSUs not booting came from our own empirical experience plus scattered reports around the net.

Personally, I believe that this problem has slowly surfaced over the past year. As I recall, DFI and Seasonic had a similar issue a while back, but it never blew up the way the NeoHE did because not many users were affected. I think the reason the NeoHE got burned for it is because both Antec and ASUS have a bigger retail presence than most of their competitors. The reason the the problem seems to big with the NeoHE is because of the sheer amount of units sold. Other power supplies have the same issues, but they don't seem so bad because fewer people have the specific combination of components that don't work.

[TomZ]

Just ordered and received a new P150 today, and unfortunately, it still has the "unfixed" power supply.

Update: I built up the system last night, and it seems to be working fine. The motherboard is an Intel D975XBX with an Intel 930 processor.

OT: Unfortunately, the WDC 150GB Raptor was DOA.

[MikeC]

Am I the only one whose NeoHE warranty sticker came mangled, but not torn?

No, you're not. Antec has sent us 3 batches of NeoHE -- first gen, then A2, then A4. In both of the first group, there were samples with "mangled but not torn" as well as torn stickers.

Despite frankgehry's insinuations that SPCR is soft on Antec because they are sponsors, we treat them like other sponsors: Fairly.

We try to report what we know to be true at any given time without falling into the morass of unverifiable hearsay that forums generally represent. If we've passed on info from Antec that proved later to be incorrect, so be it. We'were doing what we believe is one of our roles -- conveyers of information not easily obtained by the members of the general public who are interested in quiet computers.

Writing about this brings up all sorts of general corporate behavior issues... like....

Did Antec use SPCR's general goodwill to convey messages they did not want on their own web site? Maybe. When was the last time you saw an admission on a corporate web site that they'd actually done something wrong? It's probably in the rule book for CEOs of all corporations: Never admit to any wrongdoing on your own website... or ever?!

Is frankgehry blaming us for this? Yes, it seems that way. Shoot the messenger.

Is this "pathetic"? I don't think so. It's the way of the corporate world. We can try and change it, but if SPCR didn't act as a conduit for Antec's messages, perhaps there would have been someone else. Or maybe there would have been no news of any kind from Antec. Is this better? I don't know.

It's unfortunate that the product was flawed. Yet, it wasn't so flawed that no buyer could get it to work. A large percentage have had no problems with them, right from the start. I only saw a problem when I tried to build the Thai PC (featuring an Asus board) with one. That was after the 1st gen NeoHEs had been used successfully on a half dozen other boards/systems in the lab.

Anyway, just a few musing.

Frank, relax. No one is getting rich on the NeoHE. Everyone even vaguely associated with it has had only headches and desperately wants it all to be over. Trust me. And maybe version A4 is the final solution. It certainly looks that way in the SPCR lab -- they're working fine with all the systems we've tried 'em on.

I've said it before and I'll say it now: When it works, the NeoHE is bettered only by a Seasonic S12 (<430) under some conditions, and it has no competition among straight-through airflow 80mm fan PSUs.

[Hellspawn]

Really, I think 15 pages on this topic is enough. I'm a little weary of this thread continually resurfacing at the top of the PSU forum like a poo that refuses to flush. Anyone with problems with a NeoHE, follow the instructions outlined by AntecRep. Anyone with further comments on this saga please to post in the Consumer Advocacy NeoHE thread.

hehe. IMHO the piece of poo that refuses to flush is the NeoHE itself. They are still out there in original form and Antec IMHO has never provided a customer-friendly solution, so it needs to be known and the consumer armed with this info.

[frankgehry]

The fsp zen booted with this configuration according to spcr tests -
http://www.silentpcreview.com/article263-page5.html

Intel 520 P4-2.8 GHz processor for socket 775
512 MB Corsair DDR2 533MHz SDRAM
Intel D945GTP mATX motherboard w/integrated VGA
Scythe Ninja CPU heatsink
Western Digital Caviar SE WD2500JD 250GB hard drive

This seems like a minimal system, but apparently the zen will not boot with the minimal system spcr is now using to establish problems with other 80 Plus power supplies. The neo he seems to have problems with moderate to high power systems in addition to low power systems.

Spcr is also suggesting that manufacturers routinely add dummy loads to insure compatibility as it's cheap and easy. Is this an internet rumor or do you have evidence of this practice? Spcr has neo he revs 1, 2, and 4. If your theory is correct, then antec/seasonic is following the industry accepted practice and just hacking in dummy loads. In fact, if you open any neo he with a broken or mangled warranty sticker, you should be able to see a hacked resistor applied to the 12v line.

Do you plan to retest the neo he efficiency for the rev 4 or are there other revs on the way?

Spcr's ideas about this problem appear in a number of threads. It would be helpful to consolidate all the information, rumors, and sources into a more comprehensive article to separate journalism from marketing hype.

[TomZ]

In fact, if you open any neo he with a broken or mangled warranty sticker, you should be able to see a hacked resistor applied to the 12v line.

I don't think there is a correlation between a broken sticker and a fixed NeoHE. The one I received yesterday does not have the indicators on the bar code label that tell you it is fixed, however, it still had a broken warranty sticker.

I also find it surprising that many PSU manufacturers routinely add dummy loads. I am surprised that wasting 5-10W of efficiency and adding the same amount of internal heat in the PSU is the most effective way to solve that problem. Seems like more of a hack to me.

[frankgehry]

I think spcr has raised some interesting questions. Maybe some day the facts will emerge from the theories and hype.

[TomZ]

Despite frankgehry's insinuations that SPCR is soft on Antec because they are sponsors, we treat them like other sponsors: Fairly.

It is interesting that you said that you treat them like other sponsors, instead of other vendors. Is that what you meant?

I can appreciate your position of not holding Antec's feet to the fire - but to many of us who are past, present, and potentially future Antec customers, I do think their explanations are not adequate. The information from Antec has been too vague, too indirect, and too late.

As I said in my previous post, I simply cannot believe their decision to leave these units in the channel. This issue is 4-6 months old, and I cannot believe that I can still order a unit today and potentially run into the exact same problem. RMAs cost time, money, and frustration, and in addition, the situation of getting back a "remanufactured" unit in return. If I wanted a PSU like that, I would have bought a used one off eBay for $10, instead of buying new.

[MikeC]

At this point in time, I'd be happy never to write another word about NeoHE problems except to say....

**If you have one that doesn't work, insist on a rev A4 replacement.**

re- the resistors, I have not tried to open up PSUs to try and identify dummy resistors in any PSUs, but this info was passed on to me by 4 different PSU makers -- FSB, Enhance, Antec & Seasonic.

The NeoHE efficiency does not appear to have changed; a quick test a couple days ago showed only minor variance (under 1%) that's well within testing/sample tolerances, esp. at low output. Ergo, it's not using dummy resistors. It must be some kind of dynamic loading circuit like that described by someone elsewhere.

As for what's coming down the pike, I have no idea about any further revisions. But.... This rev seems to work; why would they mess w/it any further?

[jaganath]

Spcr is also suggesting that manufacturers routinely add dummy loads to insure compatibility ...I also find it surprising that many PSU manufacturers routinely add dummy loads

It's actually fairly commonplace for switching power supplies to have dummy loads; this is to prevent the PSU blowing up under a sustained "no load" condition:

PC power supplies (as well as most other switchers) need a minimum load on +5 and possibly on +12 as well. An amp (e.g., 5 ohms on +5) should be enough.

Determine an appropriate load for the outputs (if not connected to the equipment). A typical SMPS will want a minimum of 5% to 20% of full load
current at least on the main output to regulate properly. Others may not
need any load - it depends on the design or they may have an internal
load. Here are some typical load currents:

* VCR - .2 A on +5 V and +12 V outputs.
* PC - 2 A on +5, 1 A on +12.

Most SMPSs have also have a *minimum* power draw requirement from their loads. This is especially true of the main output voltage. If not enough power is drawn from the supply, the supply may not be stable and can not supply full power on the auxiliary voltages.

PSU Repair and Troubleshooting FAQ

A characteristic of the switchmode design, for instance, is that it needs a load on all of its rails at all times. Modern PSUs don't need much load, and they get a bit of 12V rail load from their cooling fan(s), and they have internal resistors that lightly load the rails even when there's nothing plugged in.

Older PSUs - well before the days of ATX - would notice if you were trying to run them unloaded, and shut themselves down.

Some very old (or very cheap) PSUs would simply burn up if run without a load. This was the case with the original 192 watt IBM AT PSUs, for instance; their 12 volt rail wasn't heavily enough loaded by an AT system without a hard disk, so hard-drive-less ATs came with a chunky, and hot-running, wirewound resistor in one of their drive bays, with a drive power receptacle hooked up to it.

Dan's PSU page

[TomZ]

It's actually fairly commonplace for switching power supplies to have dummy loads; this is to prevent the PSU blowing up under a sustained "no load" condition

Well, not meeting a minimum load should not cause a power supply to "blow up." At least not with any form of a reasonable design. I don't want people to be thinking they will have a fire if they don't apply proper load, that's all.

I can understand that SMPSs may have trouble regulating with low load - but what should happen is that the voltage may go out of spec. What I suppose is happening in the case of NeoHE is that this situation is triggering an under- or over-voltage shutdown of the PSU, which is fine.

In any case, it doesn't let the PSU manufacturer off the hook. The fact remains that the PSU designer made minimum load assumptions that are not correct for all motherboard/system configurations. This problem was compounded, IMO, by how Antec has handled this from a PR perspective. Finally, the situation is ongoing since it appears that these units are apparently still being sold to end users.

[frankgehry]

There's just one more thing bothering me today about antec.

From the spcr antec neo he review -

"Antec claims that this fan was the result of extensive development work with adda that only recently bore fruit. Antec's product development manager says this is a very special fan."

However, the truth is quite different. The 80mm adda fan in the neo he has been on adda's data sheets for 4 years. It's also been used in 250-350W sparkle psu's.

[pony-tail]

Thats the kind of marketing B/S I have come to expect from Thermaltake -
but not of Antec .
They will be selling 0db fans soon (measured at 100 metres )
Not good.
I just took my $$$$ elswhere !

[GeezerMan]

OK, I put my PC into the P150 case, with the Neo 430 Watt power supply, power supply made in 12/05, should be the revised series, with the "A" next to the serial number. Ran OK for the first day, today, I have had 3 shut downs, one while it just was at idle. This is not a new PC build, just a new case. Ran fine before. Anyone have any luck with Antec swapping it out for the Truepower series?

Asus A8N-E mobo, Athlon 4200+ X2, 2 drives, 6800GS video card, HDTV card, DVD rom, DVD burner, floppy, Artic Cooling 64

[frankgehry]

Don't know what antec's policy is on substitutions, but a working neo he is an above average psu and a truepower is just average. Plus, modular cables are very nice. As mentioned a few posts above, the rev A4 neo he sounds like the way to go. After 3 revisions, even a monkey should be able to get things right. Make sure antec picks up the return postage for your trouble.