Pico PSU at CES 2006

xarope · Post by **xarope** » Sun Jan 08, 2006 8:14 pm

Saw this at bit-tech:

http://www.bit-tech.net/news/2006/01/07/pico_psu/

Company link:

http://www.mini-box.com/s.nl/sc.8/categ ... /id.417/.f

Is this for real?!? 120W, wow!

JazzJackRabbit · Post by **JazzJackRabbit** » Sun Jan 08, 2006 8:50 pm

Interesting, but I have trouble believing this thing provides 120W. Would be nice to see all specs, how many amps on each line.

spolitta · Post by **spolitta** » Sun Jan 08, 2006 9:26 pm

even if it really is 120W still it cant power up anything seriuos, a m-itx system maybe with VIA processor and no video card.

Tephras · Post by **Tephras** » Sun Jan 08, 2006 9:30 pm

JazzJackRabbit wrote:Interesting, but I have trouble believing this thing provides 120W. Would be nice to see all specs, how many amps on each line.

Max load is 6A on 3.3V and 5V, 7A on 12V according to the manual.

Tephras · Post by **Tephras** » Sun Jan 08, 2006 9:38 pm

spolitta wrote:even if it really is 120W still it cant power up anything seriuos, a m-itx system maybe with VIA processor and no video card.

Well, it's the same with all those mini DC-DC PSUs, but this one is a lot smaller.

Tibors · Post by **Tibors** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 5:45 am

spolitta wrote:even if it really is 120W still it cant power up anything seriuos, a m-itx system maybe with VIA processor and no video card.

Tephras wrote:Max load is 6A on 3.3V and 5V, 7A on 12V according to the manual.

Lets see:
> 7A * 12V = 84W DC on the 12 volt rail alone
> System 3 in my sig pulls 66 Watt AC from the wall while folding
>> So, in theory this thing is powerfull enough for a system serious enough for a lot of uses.

Yes, I know it can't power a gaming rig with SLI. So what? Not everybody needs that.

Mats · Post by **Mats** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 6:49 am

Tibors wrote:Yes, I know it can't power a gaming rig with SLI. So what? Not everybody needs that.

I agree. The good thing about it being so small is that you can use two of them if you need. 240 W is quite much...

Mats · Post by **Mats** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 7:05 am

Does the manual tell you anything about the output? I can't open it.

Edit: Found it.

Power Ratings (Max Load = 140 Watts)
Code: Select all
Volts (V) Max Load (A) Peak Load (A) Regulation %
5V        6A           8A            +/- 1.5%
5VSB      1.5A         2A            +/- 1.5%
3.3V      6A           8A            +/- 1.5%
-12V      0.05A        0.1A          +/- 5%
12V       7A           10A           Switched input
Total combined output of the 3.3 and 5V rail should not exceed 40Watts under fanless
operation. Peak Load should not exceed 60 seconds.

frostedflakes · Post by **frostedflakes** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 10:06 am

Looks really neat. Should also be able to handle a very basic Athlon64 or Sempron64 systems as well. I had an old Turion64/Radeon 9600 system that only pulled around 75w from the wall while gaming.

Also if anybody is interested in buying one there are a few on eBay for ~$50 shipped. You'll also have to pick up an AC power brick capable of 120w.

PicoPSU auction 1
PicoPSU auction 2

Aris · Post by **Aris** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 10:46 am

dont forget that this is just a DC/DC converter. you still need an AC/DC external PSU brick to make them work.

small form factor dc/dc converters like this are nothing new. granted this is slightly smaller than previous models, but its not "OMGWTFBBQ" sort of groundbreaking.

take this one for instance which has been out for a long while now:

http://www.mini-box.com/s.nl/sc.8/categ ... /id.300/.f

it can handle 200watts. and i can easily visualize just standing it up virtically with the wires and folding the PCB over so its double stacked. and viola, its this new dc/dc converter you posted in your original topic.

ive seen reviews of pentium M motherboards that only use 36watts. round that off to 40watts for extra measure and you got over 60watts to spare for a video card. plenty enough power for a new 7800gt. idunno about you, but a 2ghz pentium-m and a 7800gt is a gamming rig to be reckoned with.

Tibors · Post by **Tibors** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 11:10 am

Aris wrote:small form factor dc/dc converters like this are nothing new. granted this is slightly smaller than previous models, but its not "OMGWTFBBQ" sort of groundbreaking.

This is however the first one that doesn't stick outside the mobo and/or is only usable with certain mobo's.

The one you linked too e.g. is powerfull enough for my system. But it can't be directly plugged into the mobo, because that would block the memory slots. This could be "solved" with an extension cable. But then how/where are you going to attach it. Another problem with the 200W unit is finding a (fanless) brick for it. If you search you can find a thread or two about how difficult that is. 120W fanless bricks are pretty easy to find.

In short: this new one is more versatile.

Aris · Post by **Aris** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 11:17 am

Tibors wrote:Another problem with the 200W unit is finding a (fanless) brick for it. If you search you can find a thread or two about how difficult that is. 120W fanless bricks are pretty easy to find.

i found a place to get the 220w delta PSU used in the SD11G5 from shuttle for $30 bucks which is completely fanless

Tibors · Post by **Tibors** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 11:27 am

Aris wrote:i found a place

Doesn't the fact that you found a place, just prove my point?

Aris · Post by **Aris** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 11:32 am

nah not really, i cant really go into detail right now cause i have an appointment in about 15min, but finding them isnt a problem if you know how to look.

i think i googled for about 20min one day cause i was just curious about them and i found a place on ebay selling them. seems they were used by dell for a few things too, mabey other retialers as well not sure. i stopped searching since i had already found one for myself.

i wouldnt really call 20min "difficult" by any standard.

the only thing you have to be carefull of is to make sure the output voltage from the ac/dc is the same as the input voltage of the dc/dc. most of the dc/dc converters for ATX ive seen use 12 volts. which is what this delta model uses as well.

Aris · Post by **Aris** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 5:08 pm

ok more detail. (mabey more than you want)

i remember finding out who made the SD11G5's external AC/DC adapter back before it was even released. i forget exactly how, i think it had somthin to do with the model number or serial number or somthin. i posted a thread about it but no one seemed interested in an external 220w AC/DC adapter that was completely passive. (I HAVE NO IDEA WHY!?!?) specially considering most people on this forum will tell you that 300watts is more than enough for MOST systems.

heres the manufacturers website for it:

http://www.delta.com.tw/product/ps/adap ... d=2&ptid=3

now delta doesnt sell to end users. they sell to company's that use their products with their retail products that they sell to us. so you wont find any delta badged versions around unless someone got their hands on a sample directly from delta somehow. i called them, they wouldnt give me a sample for review or let me buy one either.

at that point i sorta gave up, specially after the thread had little to no interest. at the time i wasnt really all that serious about using it either, but i later changed my mind when i learned more about mini-itx systems.

so a couple of months ago i'm researching information about a micro-atx system im building when i stumble across a mini-itx site. they had some internal 12v DC/DC ATX psu's that ran completely passive up to 200watts. but they needed an external 12v AC/DC adapter to make them work. and i soon found out that the largest passive one anyone could find was around 120watts. then i remembered about the SD11G5's 220watt psu adapter, and started digging.

i soon found out that shuttle wasnt the only one using this adapter. dell, and i think gateway were also. others may as well but i didnt dig that deep. i found them by plugging in the model number of the delta unit, and then partials of the delta model number.

i think i actually found delta's 180w version first.
GATEWAY Profile 5 AC Power Adapter 6500735 ADP 180AB

dug a little more and ultimatly found out dell uses the 220w version.
DELL SX270 AC ADAPTER DA 1 Y2515 ADP 220W

you can get a 12v 200w dc/dc atx psu from www.mini-box.com

qviri · Post by **qviri** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 5:28 pm

Oh crap that's a nice one.

Originally I thought it was a full AC-DC PSU, a shame it isn't.

Still, with my current system my PSU is the upper limit of the noise floor... My CPU only pulls 22 W or so, I have a Matrox G450 video card, a notebook hard drive... I'm a bit unsure about the DVD-RW's power draw, but other than that I just might start considering mini-ITX PSUs. If only they weren't so expensive...

Doomer · Post by **Doomer** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 2:41 am

Maybe in the future there will be PSU's small as that that operate at 99% effiency and provide 500 watts of power

Mats · Post by **Mats** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 2:56 am

This PSU is very capable for it's size. Look what these systems draw, you could almost use it with a 3500+ and a 6800GT, you just need a little more A on the 12 V. Unfortunately, there's no 3D stress program running in that test, only CPUBurn. Maybe there's an explanation for that, it's been a while since I read it.

An external, fanless 12 V converter isn't really a problem, is it? Even laptops (which are supposed to be moved around a lot) have it and that works just fine.

Aris · Post by **Aris** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 7:01 am

Mats wrote:An external, fanless 12 V converter isn't really a problem, is it? Even laptops (which are supposed to be moved around a lot) have it and that works just fine.

up to 120w, no not a problem. easily found alot of places. but anything more than 120w is hard to come by. the largest ac/dc adapter thats passive is the 220w one made by delta that i described above. and the largest dc/dc atx converter is 200watts.

Mats · Post by **Mats** » Tue Jan 10, 2006 7:35 am

Ok, now I see. It's not like people have something against the external PSU like I thought. They are just hard to find.

I came up with an idea. Let's say you're using this 120 W pico PSU and a 220 W Delta, then the pico PSU would be a big 12 V bottleneck in some systems. What if you connect the four pin ATX connector and the graphics card connector (only the 12 V of course) in parallel with the pico PSU input (letting those components get the power directly from the Delta, which they would have done anyway, although going through the pico first)? Would that work? One thing that may be negative is that those components will get power even when the computer is shut down.

Mats · Post by **Mats** » Wed Jan 11, 2006 5:31 am

If ou're looking for a 12 V PSU that delivers more than 150 W in computer stores then you have to look carefully. But, I checked an electronics supplier, Elfa, and then it took me like 1 minute to find one. Two issues though, it cost like two S12 430, and I don't know if it's good enough for a computer, what do you think?
If you can use it then looking in computer stores is pretty much waste of time.

johaneriksson · Post by **johaneriksson** » Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:20 am

I am using this 12V 150W Fanless PSU, EUR55, also from Elfa with my 200W Mini-Box regulator.

jaganath · Post by **jaganath** » Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:31 am

I am using this 12V 150W Fanless PSU,

Is there any way to use one of these to power a normal ATX PC? I noticed that the efficiency isn't much better than the best PSU's SPCR has reviewed.

nici · Post by **nici** » Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:44 am

Come to think of it i have a power supply for my radiocontrolled cars and plane charger wich is rated 12V/10A so its a 120w 12V DC PSU.. Its a Graupner IIRC. Not quite whats needed here but in theory it should be possible to use, but those ELFA things are cheaper. Mine cost nearly 100€ a few years ago, and it has a fan wich kicks in at 4A load.

I think external brick PSUs will become more popular within a few years, it looks like computer power consumption has pretty much reached maximum with new GPUs, CPUs and mobos being more efficient than the last generation..

Aris · Post by **Aris** » Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:56 am

jaganath wrote:
I am using this 12V 150W Fanless PSU,
Is there any way to use one of these to power a normal ATX PC? I noticed that the efficiency isn't much better than the best PSU's SPCR has reviewed.

yeah you can use them on standard atx parts. you just have to make sure you wont be pulling more power than they supply.

another thing, most of the dc/dc atx converters are 20pin. so you'd need a 20pin to 24pin adapter to make it work with newer motherboards.

you can use any external ac/dc adapter as long as the output voltage is the same as the input voltage of your dc/dc atx converter. the recepticle may need to be cut off and changed so you can mate them together, but this would be the extent of modding required. everything else just plugs in like normal. the only other thing you'd have to do is find some way to mount the small dc/dc PCB board somewhere int he case. not too difficult though see'ing how their all very small, and you can probably use double sided sticky tape and put them just about anywhere.

jaganath · Post by **jaganath** » Wed Jan 11, 2006 8:30 am

OK, so let's say I bought this to supply DC power to my motherboard and hard drives etc. Which AC-DC adapter would I need, the 12V-9A one or the 12V-5A one? Imagine that my rig only pulls 150W under maximum load.

The prospect of 95% conversion efficiency and 0dB is quite compelling.

Mats · Post by **Mats** » Wed Jan 11, 2006 8:49 am

jaganath wrote:OK, so let's say I bought this to supply DC power to my motherboard and hard drives etc. Which AC-DC adapter would I need, the 12V-9A one or the 12V-5A one? Imagine that my rig only pulls 150W under maximum load.

The prospect of 95% conversion efficiency and 0dB is quite compelling.

I guess you need both...

12x9 = 108 W
12x5 = 60 W

Do your math before you post.

Aris · Post by **Aris** » Wed Jan 11, 2006 8:49 am

well the dc/dc conversion is 95%, but the ac/dc will be less than this, and then you have to add the effecincy loss together. so it would probably be around 80-85% effiency total. which is still good. and you have to remember that while the effiency may not be any better than good atx psu's. most of that heat is outside the case rather than needing to be expelled from inside the case

a 12v-9a would give you a max of around 110watts output. volts * amps = watts.

any 12volt ac/dc would work with that dc/dc atx psu. its just that if your ac/dc only puts out 110 watts then thats all your dc/dc will put out also. you go by the lesser of the 2. if one does 200 watts and another does 50watts, then together they can only ouput 50watts.

so for it to work on your rig that pulls 150watts you'd need to find a 12v external brick psu that has at least 12.5amps. and that would be pushing it to its limits. you'd probably want to find somthing around 180watts to be on the safe side. so a 12v-15a would work well for your system. i listed one thats 180w above that you can get on ebay for around 30-40bucks.

-------------------------------------------------------

yeah i dont know why more spcr folks arnt onboard with this psu idea. 0db sounds very compelling to me also. i think the biggest reason is most people dont think its enough power. alot of people still think they need 400/500/600 watt psu's for their systems, when in reality 200watts may be more than enough.

MikeC just did an article about making a pretty descent amd system with a 6800gs graphics card that he's shipping out to thiland. and he measure max power draw at only 190watts. so its very do-able, even with standard hardware.

jaganath · Post by **jaganath** » Wed Jan 11, 2006 12:34 pm

Do your math before you post.

For those of us who learned the power laws several decades ago in the last century, all the math in the world wouldn't have brought the right result.

nici · Post by **nici** » Wed Jan 11, 2006 1:04 pm

jaganath wrote:
Do your math before you post.
For those of us who learned the power laws several decades ago in the last century, all the math in the world wouldn't have brought the right result.

You need to type clearer, i´ve lost my glasses.