Time for me to go Seasonic?

mindabsence · Post by **mindabsence** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 6:13 pm

Been running an 850W Thermaltake Toughpower PSU for the past few months now. The 140mm fan is definitely quiet, extremely quiet. However, if I stop it with my hand for a few seconds there still is that slight audible noise that disappears, so its obviously slightly contributing to the PC sound I hear.
I've been thinking about making the move to a Seasonic S12II 500W power supply.

I've never used Seasonic's before, but have heard a lot of good. So I've come to ask the experts; will the 120mm seasonic PSU fan be queiter than my 140mm Thermaltake one?
I'm really worried I'm going to sell the Thermaltake then end up with a Seasonic that creates more noise and makes me regret the whole thing (I'm strapped on a budget right now).

What do you guys think? Here's my system specs:

CPU: AMD Athlon 64 3200+ (Socket 939) @ stock speeds
Motherboard: Biostar NF4UL-A9
Memory: 1gb mb Dual Channel OCZ DDR400
HDD: Western Digital 160gb SATA II (WD1600JS), Seagate 250gb SATA II
Video: Asus EN7600GS Silent
Sound: Mark Of The Unicorn 8PRE Firewire Audio Interface (wall powered)
Power Supply: Thermaltake Toughpower 850W
Burner: One pioneer DVD-R212 SATA burner
(2) additional 120mm case fans along with the CPU one

Thanks so much guys! Awesome community here, I hope to become much more active myself since I've taken the time to join now!

Blue_Sky · Post by **Blue_Sky** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 7:53 pm

First off, 850W? Are you crazy? Your computer must draw less than 150W at idle and maybe 50-60 W more at load.

The biggest problem is that PSU efficiency is roughly proportional to the percentage of its maximum it is running at. 150W out of 850W is not pretty.

You should be just fine with a 300-400 W PSU. Seasonic makes a variety of PSUs (none of which I have any experience with ... sorry), but it is a common PSU around here - so they should be a good choice. My 430 W Antec 80+ PSU is not only silent (takes a lot of effort to get the fan up from whatever the default lowest RPM is) but can output about twice my computer's maximum draw (P5K, E6750, 8600GT).

So, to answer your question in one sentence, it is a good route to go if you want to reduce noise.

If you are really budget conscious, I'd suggest searching the forums here. You should be able to find something cheap in the 400-500W range that is quieter than what you had.

Edit: I seem to have completely forgotten my manners here. Welcome to SPCR!

mr. poopyhead · Post by **mr. poopyhead** » Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:02 pm

just for your reference, i'm running my setup (see below) on a 380W seasonic... so if you want to save yourself a few bucks you can go for a lower wattage unit. the S12II-380 is supposedly one of the quietest PSUs tested at SPCR... see review here: http://www.silentpcreview.com/article753-page1.html

welcome to SPCR!

mindabsence · Post by **mindabsence** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 5:11 pm

Thanks for the warm welcome guys!
The only reason I have the 850W now is because it was a gift.

I plan on upgrading to a quad core system with 4gb of memory sometime in the next few weeks, the seasonic will still stay mighty quiet with that? I'm not sure what sort of wattage all these parts will draw. By getting the 500W and using less of it, will it run quieter because it's not being as stressed as using a higher percentage of the 380w?

RaptorZX3 · Post by **RaptorZX3** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 2:27 am

grab yourself a Seasonic S12II 430W.

i don't know if the 380W model still have some problems with the fan speeds (like the first series), but i took a S12-430W just to be sure.

QuaiBoy · Post by **QuaiBoy** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:06 pm

I have a system very similar in CPU speed to yours (A64 3500+) currently running 4 optical drives, 3 HDs and 4 bus-powered USB devices (for a project). I'm running a S12-330 and it's very, very quiet and totally stable. FWIW.

-Evan

RaptorZX3 · Post by **RaptorZX3** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:30 pm

cool!

but i think the 330W model is discontinued for the S12-II series.

Das_Saunamies · Post by **Das_Saunamies** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 8:58 pm

Count my vote for the S12II. All models should satisfy your power needs, but pick the model from here that has all the connectors you need! I have a 430W as you can see from sig, overshot my goal, but at least I have a couple of extra connectors.

What you might consider is your need for a modular PSU. Nexus has lower-wattage models, and then there's the Corsair HX520, which is a Seasonic under the badge (or at least was when they first came out).

s_xero · Post by **s_xero** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 7:40 am

I agree Das Saunamies (where did you get that name from anyway?).

I'm getting no problems or anoying noises from my S12-430 for years now. It's actually that quiet that my ~180W-rig is virtually inaudible (because the rest of the noctua-fans are undervolted to 5v).
So the changes are quite big that you don't need to swap fans or so.

Another choise than the S12 or S12 II-series are the Corsairs. Those bastards are building a reputation... Although minimum noiselevels are higher than some Seasonics, they are truly something else. No noiseincrease 'till 250/300W is just insane!

But for your rig there is no need for something like that, unless ofcourse, you like modular power supplies.

dhanson865 · Post by **dhanson865** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 9:19 am

Sorry, I just can't recommend the S12 series anymore. They are OK but the Corsair models beat them on price to performance ratios in my reckoning.

Code: Select all

Model       Output (W)  65      90      150     200     250     300     400     500
        Efficiency
     S12II-380          79.4%   81.5%   82.1%   84.0%   83.4%   83.5%
Corsair VX450W          79.1%   80.1%   82.6%   84.8%   83.3%   83.0%   81.8%
Corsair HX520W          72.5%   77.1%   81.0%   84.5%   85.2%   85.1%   83.7%   81.3%
     S12-550E+          74.7%   78.6%   81.9%   84.8%   84.3%   84.1%   82.9%   81.2%
Corsair HX620W          70.0%   76.1%   79.9%   83.6%   84.5%   84.7%   83.9%   81.9%


         Temp Rise (Â°C)
S12II-380                                9      11      14      14
VX450W                                   4       7       9      11      16
HX520W                                   7       9      12      13      12      11
S12-550E+                                5       8      12      10      12      13
HX620W                                   7       9      12      12      12      11

         Noise (dBA@1m)
S12II-380               21      21      21      21      25      31
VX450W                  21      21      21      21      22      26      35
HX520W                  22      22      22      22      22      22      29      43
S12-550E+               20      20      20      20      21      25      38      40
HX620W                  22      22      22      22      22      22      29      43

Anything in listed here will be quiet a low loads. The noise can get rather noticeable in the higher ranges.

You might consider trying http://www.corsair.com/psufinder/default.aspx in addition to looking at the Seasonic web site.

walle · Post by **walle** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 10:44 am

dhanson865 wrote:Sorry, I just can't recommend the S12 series anymore. They are OK but the Corsair models beat them on price to performance ratios in my reckoning.

The S12 (rev 1 version) surpasses the rev 2 versions, A: more quiet operation B: better cooling C: more room when swapping fans. These are the three most important key features when building a quiet rig IMO.

Edit:
I run an S12 (rev 1 ) 600W unit pared with a slipstream 800rpm fan housed in a Solo chassis, try that with a rev 2 version and chances are that it would go up in flames after having been sweating some.

williamn6133 · Post by **williamn6133** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 2:40 pm

mindabsence wrote:I'm not sure what sort of wattage all these parts will draw. By getting the 500W and using less of it, will it run quieter because it's not being as stressed as using a higher percentage of the 380w?

I am going to say no. My 330W Seasonic has no ability to regulate fan speed depending on usage. It is stuck at 1 speed. I shall assume other PSU's in the same range are the same.

http://www.extreme.outervision.com/psuc ... orlite.jsp - here you calculate how much you would use PSU power.

I would be surprised if you need more than 330W.

RaptorZX3 · Post by **RaptorZX3** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 4:33 pm

by the way, if you don't know yet, Corsair PSUs are made by Seasonic.

dhanson865 · Post by **dhanson865** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 6:30 pm

walle wrote:
dhanson865 wrote:Sorry, I just can't recommend the S12 series anymore. They are OK but the Corsair models beat them on price to performance ratios in my reckoning.
The S12 (rev 1 version) surpasses the rev 2 versions, A: more quiet operation B: better cooling C: more room when swapping fans. These are the three most important key features when building a quiet rig IMO.

Edit:
I run an S12 (rev 1 ) 600W unit pared with a slipstream 800rpm fan housed in a Solo chassis, try that with a rev 2 version and chances are that it would go up in flames after having been sweating some.

Sorry, your S12 terminology is just a little to simplistic for me.

S12 (330)
S12 380, 430
S12 500, 600

When each of these debuted there was a rev 1 but each of them are different in significant ways. The 330 was different from the 380 which was different from the 500 in ways other than volts and watts.

Now just following the S12 430 as a singular item there were US and non US versions. In addition to that difference there were two revisions before sleeving (One rev had an ADDA fan and one rev had a Yate Loon) and a sleeved revision (sometime in 2006) all of that is excluding the new S12 with a roman numeral II.

Once you go to S12-II you now have a 330, 380, 430, and 500 all with the same design.

I think those were known as revisions A1, A2, and A2 sleeved but I'm not sure on the sleeved revision number.

So in total I know of 4 versions of the S12-430 in time order once you lump the II and non II versions together and then there are more when you add international versions.

Now once you get past all the S12 and S12-II revisions you also have the Energy+ family in 550 and 650 watt versions which share a design but are different from the regular S12 models.

I don't know if you can still easily find an S12 instead of the S12-II. If you are saying that S12 PSUs are still available that don't have the roman numeral II in the product name and you recommend them over the S12-II series that is your right. I wouldn't unconditionally recommend any S12 over the Corsair VX or HX series.

FWIW I own several Seasonic PSUs and I'm not saying anything negative about them. I'm just saying I have a preference for the newer products made by the same people with a newer design and a different brand name. The reasons are Price, Availability, flatter fan curve by way of an improved fan controller, better build quality, better efficiency, etcetera...

Now what was the purpose of this thread again?

dhanson865 · Post by **dhanson865** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 6:45 pm

mindabsence wrote:Been running an 850W Thermaltake Toughpower PSU for the past few months now.

FWIW the under 1000W Toughtpowers made tier4 on this old thread http://www.jonnyguru.net/forums/showthread.php?t=103

The Corsair and Seasonic lines made tier3.

Tier 1 was best and tier 4 was worst but even tier 4 was recommended and there are tons of PSUs in the world that are below tier 4 quality and thus never made the list.

Also worth noting that such a list is only partially useful for SPCR users as the first PSU on the tier1 section has this bullet point:

* Louder than a leaf blower

Now in this other old thread
http://www.jonnyguru.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1460

The Thermaltake didn't make the cut due to price as it was the first criteria.

The Corsair and Seasonic PSUs made the cut but there are no Tiers to speak of in that thread.

Alex · Post by **Alex** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 8:16 pm

RaptorZX3 wrote:by the way, if you don't know yet, Corsair PSUs are made by Seasonic.

Not the Corsair VX550 PSU, right?
Just do a google on "Corsair VX550 made by" and you will learn something I think.

VX450, HX520 and HX620 are from Seasonic though.

walle · Post by **walle** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 8:49 pm

dhanson865 wrote:Sorry, your S12 terminology is just a little to simplistic for me.

No need to apologize, not meant to be clever with you, I usually refer to the S12 range in rev 1 and rev 2 for simplicity reasons only. From now on Iâ€™ll keep in mind that its to simplistic, perhaps even more confusing than using S12 S12-II terminology, which would make my approach contra productive adding nedless confusion.

Thanks for pointing it out.

dhanson865 wrote:I'm just saying I have a preference for the newer products made by the same people with a newer design and a different brand name. The reasons are Price, Availability, flatter fan curve by way of an improved fan controller, better build quality, better efficiency, etcetera...

We all have different preferences, my pointers still stands since I know them to be accurate. Efficiency is important, but so is quietness, cooling performance and elbow room when modifying the unit (swapping fans). And the S12 are in these respects better than both the S12-II and the HX series.

For your information; I also own several S12 units, including one S12-II, one Energy + and last but not least two HX 520W units, so Iâ€™m not stating these things out of thin air with zero experience in using the units.

dhanson865 wrote:I wouldn't unconditionally recommend any S12 over the Corsair VX or HX series.

I understand that, most people visiting this forum are generally speaking beginners when it comes to building quiet rigs and are as such most likely not going to tamper (modify) their hardware, thus it would be logical do direct them to units that are easily obtainable. However; its never bad to bring up the pros and cons with the versions (S12 S12-II and the HX series). Doing so gives people the opportunity to make up their own minds. Call me anal, but I react when anyone "unconditionally" recommends the new units out of reflex action whilst not including the negative aspects of them, so to tie this up lets see if this sums it upâ€¦

S12

+More quiet
+Better cooling
+more room for modifications (swapping fan)

S12-II

+availability
+efficiency
+fan controller
+price

HX

+availability
+efficiency
+fan controller
+modular cables
+price

S12 S12-II and HX
-
Adda fan can cause buzz and whine issues? swapped fan in my HX 520 and the buzz/whine issue disappeared, just a thought.

Perhaps we could agree to disagree regarding the features we find most important?

Das_Saunamies · Post by **Das_Saunamies** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 4:20 am

Over here the S12II were(and still are, by a considerable margin) cheaper than the HX520, so that's what I got. If I had to buy a new PSU now, knowing all I do, I would still go for the S12II as that is all I need and more(lower wattages not available). I would be tempted but not necessarily willing to buy a modular unit, like the Nexus NX-8040 or the Corsair HX520. The old S12 do sound like the better choice in terms of silence, but are no longer readily available.

An S12II-430 is around 80 euros, whereas an HX520 is 100 euros.

Calling the S12II anything but S12II is in my opinion pointless: that's what the manufacturer calls them, that's the name they sell under, that's what they are. If there are internal revisions not shown on the label, then those should be discussed separately. See labeling at http://www.seasonicusa.com/S12II.htm.

And as for my nickname/handle/alias, I've always had it. It originates from LAN parties in the late 90s.

dhanson865 · Post by **dhanson865** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:16 am

Alex wrote:
RaptorZX3 wrote:by the way, if you don't know yet, Corsair PSUs are made by Seasonic.
Not the Corsair VX550 PSU, right?
Just do a google on "Corsair VX550 made by" and you will learn something I think.

VX450, HX520 and HX620 are from Seasonic though.

Redbeard wrote:The manufacturer breaks down like this:

VX450 - Seasonic
VX550 - CWT

HX520 - Seasonic
HX620 - Seasonic

TX650 - Seasonic
TX750 - CWT

The TX650 is based on a revision of the S12-II design from Seasonic, with some small component changes and our own cable config (longer cables, fully sleeved, more connectors, etc).

dhanson865 · Post by **dhanson865** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:45 am

walle wrote:so to tie this up lets see if this sums it upâ€¦

S12

+More quiet
+Better cooling
+more room for modifications (swapping fan)

S12-II

+availability
+efficiency
+fan controller
+price

HX

+availability
+efficiency
+fan controller
+modular cables
+price

S12 S12-II and HX
-
Adda fan can cause buzz and whine issues? swapped fan in my HX 520 and the buzz/whine issue disappeared, just a thought.

Perhaps we could agree to disagree regarding the features we find most important?

Excellent post, no need to agree to disagree. But if we are going to list the pros and cons lets toss the VX and TX into the mix. Also I don't see S12-II as a low price option so long as the VX is available in your area.

S12 330
-small heatsinks cause fan to ramp up
+more room for modifications (swapping fan)

S12 500 or 600
-stock fan is not as quiet as the models below
+Better cooling
+more room for modifications (swapping fan)

S12 380 or 430
+More quiet
+Better cooling
+more room for modifications (swapping fan)

S12-II any wattage
+availability
+efficiency
=better noise than the old 330 but worse than the old 380

HX any wattage
+availability
+efficiency
+fan controller
+modular cables

VX450
+availability
+efficiency
+fan controller
+price

TX650
+availability
+efficiency
+fan controller
+high wattage

Until SPCR reviews one of the CWT units I'm not sure how to rate the pros and cons on the VX550 and TX750 from a noise standpoint.

Also for those of you that don't know about the beards. Yellowbeard, Redbeard, etc are corsair reps that post on various forumns and answer some interesting questions about these PSUs. I'll quote from them here to add to the comparison/contrast.

Redbeard wrote:To be honest, not really. The TX650 is kind of designed to be a less expensive HX620 for people who don't care about or want modular cables.

And don't get me started on why the HX is 620W and the TX is 650W. You wouldn't believe how many meetings I've been in where that question gets asked.

Redbeard wrote:As a side note, our test methodology is so stringent we caught something even Seasonic wasn't aware of. A $120,000 Chroma tester and a hardcore engineering team will do that, I guess.

The TX series is going to be like a higher-wattage VX series. Non-modular,
great price/performance.

We're not moving away from modular, we're just making good quality fixed cable products as well for people that are interested in them.

Redbeard wrote: It sometimes upsets me that people think our PSUs have the same finish that Seasonic's units do. We spent extra on ours to get it to be a very rough, unfinished type of texture. It's not a cheap finish, but I like the look and feel of it better than a lot of the "nickel-plated" or whatever PSUs I see. Especially since I can't seem to keep my grubby fingerprints off those ones.

And a lot of people would be surprised how fast prices go up.

For argument's sake, let's say you get a quote like this:

Stock 500W PSU @ 50C - $50

Then you add the following:
-Custom cable lengths - $1.50
-Customized number of connectors - $2
-Custom paint - $2
-High quality 105C capacitors - $3
-Better quality fan - $3
-Custom colored labels - $2.50
-Custom box with multi-color design - $3

Now your $50 PSU is $67. It's a considerably better PSU than the "stock" 500W PSU, but that $17 manufacturer cost translates into $30-40 retail at least.

So now you have Craptech, Inc: at 500W for $65 retail, or UpgradeCo, Inc: at 500W for $99 retail. And everyone's saying "they're the same thing!" because they're built by the same manufacturer.

And some people ask "why would I pay more for custom labels or a nicer box?"

dhanson865 · Post by **dhanson865** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 8:03 am

Das_Saunamies wrote: Calling the S12II anything but S12II is in my opinion pointless: that's what the manufacturer calls them, that's the name they sell under, that's what they are. If there are internal revisions not shown on the label, then those should be discussed separately. See labeling at http://www.seasonicusa.com/S12II.htm.

I think you are confused. So far as I know there is only one revision of the S12II at this point.

The revisions I spoke of are revisions of the S12.

S12 A1
S12 A2
S12 Sleeved
S12II

No reason to call the S12II anything other than S12II at this point but the old S12 has many versions AND its important to note the wattage as:

S12 A1 330 is a totally different animal than S12 A1 500. The heat sinks are different, the fan is different, the efficiency curve is different, most anything you can think of about these two PSUs is different.

Now if you compare the S12II 330 to the S12II 500 they would be almost identical. It would be hard to tell a difference between the two from a picture of the internals.

Does it make more sense if I list it this way?

S12 330 A1
S12 330 A2
S12 330 Sleeved

S12 380/430 A1
S12 380/430 A2
S12 380/430 Sleeved

S12 500/600 A1
S12 500/600 A2
S12 500/600 Sleeved

S12II 330/380/430/500

There is only one S12II but there are 9 different US versions of S12. It's all in how you count it but when someone says something like:

"S12 is quieter than S12II"

Then I have to ask about the S12:

What wattage S12 (330, 380, 430, 500, 600)
What revision (A1, A2, Sleeved)
What country was it purchased in?

I don't have to ask any of those questions about the S12II.

So if you say Corsair VX450 is quieter than S12II I don't have to ask any questions and its a much simpler comparison.

If you say S12II is quieter than Antec Earthwatts, again I agree and I don't have to ask any questions.

dhanson865 · Post by **dhanson865** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 8:18 am

As to price

S12II 380W is on SPCR's pricegrabber for $65
VX450W is on SPCR's pricegrabber for $65

the old S12 380 sleeved might be found for about the same price if you look hard enough. It was out of stock at the first 5 or so places I checked but I think I found one store with it still listed as in stock. Given the nature of online order systems I can't be absolutely sure without ordering one and waiting to see if it actually ships.

Das_Saunamies · Post by **Das_Saunamies** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:42 pm

That's what I was going for. If there are these "hidden" revisions, like there are with the original S12, then those should be differentiated as such. I've just seen the S12II get called "S12 rev2", "S12-II" and "S12 II", or even "S12 2" plenty of times, so I jumped to conclusions in the absence of contrary evidence. My apologies.

All I know is that the original S12s(the ones I have seen and heard of) had an Adda fan spec'd as Low, whereas the S12II has a Medium-spec Adda fan to comply with TÃœV.

That comment about Craptech and UpgradeCo could be taken as not-so-subtle stab at...

Still, I see where the Corsair rep is coming from, they seem to take this very seriously.

I'd probably advocate Corsair had I bought one when I had the chance, but am too satisfied with my Seasonic to get swayed now.

walle · Post by **walle** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 3:06 pm

The thought never crossed my mind to include sleeved cables into the equation since they have no impact on either quietness or cooling performance, absolute nil. Theyâ€™re but a bonus upon purchase, albeit a nice one, but thatâ€™s all.

As long as the internal revisions (differentiators) between the models has no impact on their performance I tend to not include them (unless asked about the sleeved cables). If any internal revision would have had an impact on A: quietness B: cooling performance C: power, or D: the efficiency in any significant way, then I would assume that it would mean a new model being proudly presented about to enter the market. Hmm; I stated that I perhaps was being anal here, well; it seems as if though I was beaten blue with a stick.

Das_Saunamies wrote:All I know is that the original S12s(the ones I have seen and heard of) had an Adda fan spec'd as Low, whereas the S12II has a Medium-spec Adda fan to comply with TÃœV.

Apart from the more efficient caps, fan controller and inferior cooling fins in the S12-II range, that would be about spot on.

Edit:

I forgot to include the S12 330W unit and what separated it from the other units in the S12 range, my mistake, thanks for highlighting it. Perhaps this actually would have qualified as a another model all together given what I previously mentioned in this post? be that as it may; this unit is a strange bird.

dhanson865 · Post by **dhanson865** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 5:08 pm

Some S12 PSUs came with a sleeve bearing fan that was quieter, some came with a ball bearing fan that was still low RPM but not quite as quiet.

I'll probably stop pointing out the differences about the same time people stop talking about the older parts.

Forgive me if you think I'm beating a dead horse but I like to share the details for all the lurkers that will find this thread after you and I forget about it.

RaptorZX3 · Post by **RaptorZX3** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 10:52 pm

dhanson865 wrote:Some S12 PSUs came with a sleeve bearing fan that was quieter, some came with a ball bearing fan that was still low RPM but not quite as quiet.

I'll probably stop pointing out the differences about the same time people stop talking about the older parts.

Forgive me if you think I'm beating a dead horse but I like to share the details for all the lurkers that will find this thread after you and I forget about it.

the first "revision" had the Yate Loon low-speed 120mm fan i think, and the "revision B" had sleeved cables and a different fan, medium-speed i think, slightly less quiet, but still quiet.

walle · Post by **walle** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 12:17 am

RaptorZX3 wrote:[the first "revision" had the Yate Loon low-speed 120mm fan i think, and the "revision B" had sleeved cables and a different fan, medium-speed i think, slightly less quiet, but still quiet.

That would be correct, ending up with a revision using the Yate Loon fan would be yet another bonus upon a purchase, I happen to have one bonus unit, again; both units are more quite than the S12-II range.

dhanson865 wrote: I'll probably stop pointing out the differences about the same time people stop talking about the older parts.

I would equally stop pointing out the drawbacks with the newer parts as soon as they surpass the older parts.

dhanson865 wrote:Forgive me if you think I'm beating a dead horse but I like to share the details for all the lurkers that will find this thread after you and I forget about it.

No problem, all is as it should be dhanson.

Time for me to go Seasonic?

Time for me to go Seasonic?

Re: Time for me to go Seasonic?