[Powerful], reliable, but [quiet] PSU

Mastakilla · Post by **Mastakilla** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 7:15 am

Hi all,

Soon I'll be creating a new system.

I'm thinking of the following atm

Intel Core I7 920 D0 @ 4-4,4Ghz (watercooled with it's own radiator and pump)
X58 mobo (watercooled - radiator and pump shared with videocard(s))
6GB RAM
ATI dx11 videocard (watercooled - radiator and pump shared with chipset) (first a single gpu, VERY perhaps later a second one - crossfire)
Highpoint 3520 SATA RAID controller
4x Seagate 1,5TB Barracuda LPs to start with (will become 8x in the end)
2x Intel SSD
Auzentech Hometheather HD Soundcard
Blu-ray writer, dvdwriter, etc

As you can see, this PC will draw quite some power (many HDs and a heavily overclocked and overvolted CPU)

I estimate that it will use at least 400W while doing something and in it's final state (8 HDs and possibly crossfire) it might even draw 600W in peakmoments.

Since it is very important to have a stable supply of power in these peakmoments (especially with an overclocked pc), I estimate that I need at least a very decent 700W PSU

To keep it all a bit silent, I'm looking for a PSU that is the most silent at high loads (400-600W)

Is the only real option then the Zalman ZM850-HP? Or are there other alternatives in mean while? (perhaps a 80+ gold or silver PSU? The zalman is only bronze I think)

Thanks in advance for all advice!

Post by **MikeC** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 8:45 am

If you use one of the bigger Antec cases, the Antec CP-850 is well worth trying. Modest price for the power and excellent performance/noise. Review coming soon.

Mastakilla · Post by **Mastakilla** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 9:21 am

the case is actually the only thing i was planning to keep from my previous setup :p

it is a first gen CM Stacker case

in how many days / weeks is this review expected btw?

Post by **MikeC** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 9:27 am

Mastakilla wrote:the case is actually the only thing i was planning to keep from my previous setup :p

it is a first gen CM Stacker case

in how many days / weeks is this review expected btw?

Won't fit in that case, so if you're keeping it, then... a Zalman 850 is pretty good, ditto Seasonic M12II-850 (more efficient), and Antec SG850.

CP-850 review -- maybe 7~10 days.

Mastakilla · Post by **Mastakilla** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 8:21 am

Thanks for the quick response! But I don't really get it yet...
http://www.silentpcreview.com/article936-page7.html

Code: Select all

Comparison: Various PSUs Noise Vs. Power Output in Anechoic Chamber
Model                    90W     150W    200W    250W    300W    400W    500W    6~700W
Nexus Value 430          11      11      16      18      18      19      n/a     n/a
Seasonic M12D 850W       14      14      14      14      14      24      37      42
Enermax Modu82+ 625*     13      13      14      15      16      26      36      37
Coolermaster M700W       14      14      18      21      25      27      34      34
Chill Innovation CP-700M 15      15      15      15      17      30      34      34
Antec Signature 650      15      15      15      18      18      28      36      47
SilverStone DA700        18      18      18      18      23      32      35      41
NesteQ ECS7001           22      22      22      21      23      25      36      37
PCPC Silencer 610        20      24      24      24      24      30      40      50

The green colored blocks are 30 dBA@1m or greater SPL readings. The PSU that stayed quiet (under 30 dBA) to the highest load is not in this table because it has not been tested in the anechoic chamber: The Zalman ZM1000, which stayed below 30 dBA to almost 600W load. It's idle noise is probably not low enough to match the M12D-850W , the Enermax, or the Signature 650; its measured SPL in the live test room was 20 dBA@1m, a dB or two higher than the others.

In this article the Antec and Seasonic seem much louder than the Zalman at 500W or above (36-37 vs 30)

am i missing something perhaps? Is the Antec or Seasonic that much better in efficiency / stability / reliability, that i should consider it above the zalman?

Post by **NeilBlanchard** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 8:45 am

Hi,

Can you show me a system that consumes 500watts?!

lodestar · Post by **lodestar** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:55 am

The OP is proposing

Intel Core I7 920 D0 @ 4-4,4Ghz (watercooled with it's own radiator and pump)

Core i7 power consumption increases enormously at these sort of overclocks. For example, a real world 920 system at 4Ghz consumed 417w. And the jump from 3.8Ghz to 4Ghz on its own increased power draw by around 100w. So, 4.4Ghz - if you can get there, then certainly 500w.

Along with all this power will come heat, loads and loads of it. Hopefully the watercooling will cope.

Post by **MikeC** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 11:17 am

lodestar wrote:....a real world 920 system at 4Ghz consumed 417w. And the jump from 3.8Ghz to 4Ghz on its own increased power draw by around 100w. So, 4.4Ghz - if you can get there, then certainly 500w....

Aren't these AC power consumption numbers?

EsaT · Post by **EsaT** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 12:18 pm

Mastakilla wrote:it is a first gen CM Stacker case

Plain POS for trying to keep anything quiet!
(like any open case)

Mastakilla wrote:In this article the Antec and Seasonic seem much louder than the Zalman at 500W or above (36-37 vs 30)

am i missing something perhaps?

Seasonic is taking more conservative approach to cooling at high loads for guaranteeing longer term reliability.

Post by **MikeC** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 2:10 pm

One thing to ask is how often your system will be at full load. If you're really drawing >500W all the time, then perhaps the acoustics of tje system at that load are critical. If on the other hand your system idles a lot of times, perhaps at 150W, then the minimal noise level could be more important. Usually, the PSU fan cannot be easily user-controlled for speed/noise.

Mastakilla · Post by **Mastakilla** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 4:23 am

lodestar wrote:The OP is proposing

Intel Core I7 920 D0 @ 4-4,4Ghz (watercooled with it's own radiator and pump)

Core i7 power consumption increases enormously at these sort of overclocks. For example, a real world 920 system at 4Ghz consumed 417w. And the jump from 3.8Ghz to 4Ghz on its own increased power draw by around 100w. So, 4.4Ghz - if you can get there, then certainly 500w.

Along with all this power will come heat, loads and loads of it. Hopefully the watercooling will cope.

exactly...

the 4,4Ghz is offcourse wishfull thinking

but i do hope to reach at least 4Ghz

i'm not sure if it are "AC power consumption numbers" that lodestar mentions, but I do know that an overclocked i7 like this draws A LOT of power...

You also have to keep in mind the 8HDs in the end:
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/storag ... html#sect0

In the above link you can see that one HD can consume around 8-9W, so 8 of those is another 60-70W above "a default overclocked i7 system"

So I'm quite sure that, if all goes well, I'll get at or near that 500W in peak moments

EsaT wrote:
Mastakilla wrote:it is a first gen CM Stacker case
Plain POS for trying to keep anything quiet!
(like any open case)

In my current system, a watercooled A64, in this case, my OCZ 520W Powerstream is the loudest component. It contains around 10x 120mm Yate Loon fans @ +-1000rpm
Since the OCZ PSU (although it is a great PSU) is probably a little too weak for the system I have in mind, I'm thinking of replacing it with a more silent and powerfull PSU
I know that it wont be possible to reach absolute silence in this case (especially not with such an overclock), but it should be possible to make something that is "silent enough" (more silent than an average computer)

EsaT wrote:
Mastakilla wrote:In this article the Antec and Seasonic seem much louder than the Zalman at 500W or above (36-37 vs 30)

am i missing something perhaps?
Seasonic is taking more conservative approach to cooling at high loads for guaranteeing longer term reliability.

That is a good point and it certainly was already on my list of "things to ask"
I do am wondering how the Zalman does concerning reliability and I do have some doubts if being that silent AND hot is a smart thing...
So if anyone has some experience in that matter, please let me know...

MikeC wrote:One thing to ask is how often your system will be at full load. If you're really drawing >500W all the time, then perhaps the acoustics of tje system at that load are critical. If on the other hand your system idles a lot of times, perhaps at 150W, then the minimal noise level could be more important. Usually, the PSU fan cannot be easily user-controlled for speed/noise.

That is also a good point...
The thing is that with an overclock like this, I'll probably disable most powersaving features of the i7 cpu... so even while idling it will still draw pretty much... (offcourse not near 500W, but muuuuch more then a default i7 system)
I wouldn't mind it being louder during stress testing (that is when it will certainly draw 500W, but it is also something I'll only do once, in the beginning), but during for example gaming or a nightly blu-ray encode i do would like it to be "silent"
now i'm not sure if it will still draw 500W in those cases... but it may be close i think... which is why i also pay a bit attention to the noise in the 500-600W area... (better "safe" then sorry

)

Mastakilla · Post by **Mastakilla** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 4:49 am

NeilBlanchard wrote:Hi,

Can you show me a system that consumes 500watts?!

an real example

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cooler ... html#sect0
this is a non-overclocked core I7 system with only 1 HD and draws 502,8W maximum
it does have a very high end videocard, but in total i expect my overclocked core i7 system (even with only 4HDs and a single videocard) to draw at least the same and probably more

Mastakilla · Post by **Mastakilla** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 7:48 am

does no one have any opinion on the reliability of the Zalman PSU when heavily used?
If I remember well, Anand tested it once and did also notice it ran quite hot...

I can't find the Seasonic M12II in the benelux btw
Only the M12D, but that one is quite expensive...
Does anyone know if it is more silent then the M12II in the higher wattages?

Post by **MikeC** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 8:36 am

It's safe to say that all the system power figures discussed in this thread are in fact AC power numbers. Assume 80% efficiency, and you have 400W DC load.

Now, here's a very simple fact: All PSUs reviewed by SPCR are in extremely demanding thermal conditions, with a lot of the heat generated by the PSU evacuating through itself. Put the best PSUs in a position where the intake is from outside the case, hopefully under 30C ambient, and every one of them will be substantially quieter at the same loads. If you push the PSU to say >75% of rated power, even under such conditions, it will heat up inside and the fan will ramp up, but the entire fan speed to load curve can be flattened upwards by using a case (or setting it up) so that the PSU always gets cooler air from the outside.

The CM stacker you plan to keep is not ideal if you're air cooling, with the PSU on top, but because you're watercooling, then it could be very different. Assuming you are going to port all the heat out to radiators mounted on the outside of the case, it might be quiet cool inside the case with one or two good fans.

All of which means you really can't take the SPCR acoustic/load test results as being completely relevant for you; they should be see as worst-case scenarios.

EsaT · Post by **EsaT** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 11:58 am

Mastakilla wrote:http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cooler ... html#sect0
...it does have a very high end videocard

Two cards in one package...
Just like in dual CPU socket motherboard. (what no one would call as single CPU PC)

lodestar · Post by **lodestar** » Thu Aug 27, 2009 1:42 pm

MikeC wrote:It's safe to say that all the system power figures discussed in this thread are in fact AC power numbers. Assume 80% efficiency, and you have 400W DC load.

Quite. The only maximum power consumption figures I could find for a 4.4Ghz Core i7 920 system was 915w AC. The figure was based on a system with 2 AMD 4870 X2 graphics cards in Crossfire mode, which explains why it is that much. This would be around 730w DC load. The user of this system had a 1000w PSU, and given the power draw of the system that would be a reasonable choice.

Mastakilla · Post by **Mastakilla** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 6:00 am

MikeC wrote:It's safe to say that all the system power figures discussed in this thread are in fact AC power numbers. Assume 80% efficiency, and you have 400W DC load.

Now, here's a very simple fact: All PSUs reviewed by SPCR are in extremely demanding thermal conditions, with a lot of the heat generated by the PSU evacuating through itself. Put the best PSUs in a position where the intake is from outside the case, hopefully under 30C ambient, and every one of them will be substantially quieter at the same loads. If you push the PSU to say >75% of rated power, even under such conditions, it will heat up inside and the fan will ramp up, but the entire fan speed to load curve can be flattened upwards by using a case (or setting it up) so that the PSU always gets cooler air from the outside.

The CM stacker you plan to keep is not ideal if you're air cooling, with the PSU on top, but because you're watercooling, then it could be very different. Assuming you are going to port all the heat out to radiators mounted on the outside of the case, it might be quiet cool inside the case with one or two good fans.

All of which means you really can't take the SPCR acoustic/load test results as being completely relevant for you; they should be see as worst-case scenarios.

Good to know...

Currently I have my PSU in the top of my case, which indeed has the "hot" air from my case as an intake
I have a radiator in the bottom of the case which is sucking cold air from the floor through the rad inside the case (not ideal, but my current setup hardly generates any heat anyway...)

However my stacker can have the PSU in the bottom. By default it will then still have the intake of the "hot" air from inside the case, but if make the hole in the bottom a bit larger, I can also turn it around and have it suck the cold air from the floor (I will have to do something about the dust then)

Since I'm planning to have 2 radiators and space is tight already with 1 radiator, i'll probably bring both radiators outside the case (not sure how yet though)

lodestar wrote:
MikeC wrote:It's safe to say that all the system power figures discussed in this thread are in fact AC power numbers. Assume 80% efficiency, and you have 400W DC load.
Quite. The only maximum power consumption figures I could find for a 4.4Ghz Core i7 920 system was 915w AC. The figure was based on a system with 2 AMD 4870 X2 graphics cards in Crossfire mode, which explains why it is that much. This would be around 730w DC load. The user of this system had a 1000w PSU, and given the power draw of the system that would be a reasonable choice.

Thanks for this... I couldn't really find how much that crossfire setup consumes on it's own though, so I'm not sure what to conclude out of it...

I'm trying to figure out a realistic consumption amount in the following thread in meanwhile:
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/sho ... ost3983258

Post by **MikeC** » Fri Aug 28, 2009 6:45 am

Mastakilla --

See this post:
viewtopic.php?p=479004&highlight=#479004

In essence, what I've been saying in previous posts is that you don't need to sweat the difference between a Zalman 850 and a Seasonic M12D-850 -- in a case where the fan isn't sucking in hot air from the system, they will both be quieter than in the PSU test -- by at least 100W, maybe more.

Mastakilla · Post by **Mastakilla** » Sat Aug 29, 2009 9:21 am

thanks for the advice MikeC

That does bring me back to another question:
Is the Zalman a reliable PSU when exposing it to a high consumption system? (since it's fan ramps up a lot slower than similar PSUs and it becomes hotter)
Does anyone have some experience with it? Or even better, does anyone know about the return rate compared to other PSUs (unlikely, i know

)

Cause on first sight, it seems like the Seasonic M12D seems like a more trustable PSU, but it also is a lot more expensive...

So I'm still not sure what to buy actually...

Post by **MikeC** » Sat Aug 29, 2009 11:09 am

Cheapest quiet top quality 850W PSU is the Antec CP-850, no question.

Even cheaper is the SPCR sample of the recently reviewed Nexus NX-8500. Email me for details.

Post by **MikeC** » Sat Aug 29, 2009 5:09 pm

MikeC wrote:Cheapest quiet top quality 850W PSU is the Antec CP-850, no question.

...which only works in Antec 1200, p193 or p183 case. Review is done:
http://www.silentpcreview.com/Antec_CP-850

Mastakilla · Post by **Mastakilla** » Mon Aug 31, 2009 2:32 pm

The Antec CP-850 does indeed seem like an amazing PSU, especially the design

Also the price is stunning IF you still need a case... If not, then it even is more expensive than the Seasonic, Antec SG or even the Enermax 85+

I already have a case. I know my CM Stacker isn't the best for building a completely silent PC, but it is pretty flexible, has quite some space and can have a nice airflow.
Actually it is too small for me though (it now hardly fits my single radiator, I can't imagine it to fit 2 radiators)
So if one of those Antecs could fit everything in it, I would probably want to invest in it, but even the Antec p193 is smaller than my CM Stacker, so is certainly not worth to be it's replacement (I actually don't know any case that could fit all in)

So I'm afraid that rules the Antec CP-850 out

I also re-read this review:
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cooler ... -psus.html

I noticed that the Antec Signature 850W has 80mm fan... This might be silent the first few months, but I can't believe that it remains silent after eating some dust. This PSU also is only 4 euro cheaper than the Seasonic, so then I prefer the Seasonic personally... (which is also 80 Plus Silver)

The Enermax 85+ 850W also seems like an awesome PSU, but it's price ruled it out already from the beginning...

The Nexus you mention could be ok, but I prefer remaining at known and proven brands in PSU world... It doesn't need to become too cheap

I might be wrong, but I just don't feel I can trust Nexus to be the PSU brand in my super PC...

So that makes me doubt between 2 PSUs:
The Zalman ZM850-HP, which I actually don't fully trust to be reliable enough, but which is ok in price...
and
The Seasonic M12D, which looks to be great, but is expensive

If anyone knows anything else I should consider
or
If anyone has user experiences with the Zalman at high loads,
please let me know!

Thanks once more!

btw:
The thread on Xtremesystems.org is now evolving in the same direction (the decision :p)
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/sho ... ost3983258

Post by **MikeC** » Mon Aug 31, 2009 2:47 pm

Between the Zalman and the Seasonic, the latter is the better choice.

Mastakilla · Post by **Mastakilla** » Mon Aug 31, 2009 3:33 pm

MikeC wrote:Between the Zalman and the Seasonic, the latter is the better choice.

I know.... but that price

With my last PSU (OCZ Powerstream 520W) I was already justifying myself the high price by telling myself it would last at least 2 pcs, but it didn't and now I'm being forced to consider a PSU that is even twice as expensive

btw:
Someone in Xtremesystems pointed me to the many user reviews on NewEgg to get an idea of reliability...
There are many reviews on the Zalman, including many people having issues with a loud whine while gaming
There are only few reviews of the Seasonic, but also there is someone who is having an irriting whine

"Coil Whine" I heart someone calling it...

Do you know if this is a problem for both US (110v) and EU (220v)? Or does this occur more for US people (who are also the NewEgg reviewers)?

Someone sais it is a "known design issue" in the Zalman ZM850-HP and ZM1000-HP, but not in the ZM750-HP...
But that also someone notices it in the Seasonic worries me a bit....

Can this happen in all PSUs? Or does it only occur in PSUs with a specific design issue?

Post by **MikeC** » Mon Aug 31, 2009 4:55 pm

Mastakilla wrote:
MikeC wrote:Between the Zalman and the Seasonic, the latter is the better choice.
I know.... but that price

You can't ask for the best then whine about the price of the best.

If that's not good, then try sticking a CP-850 in the Stacker. Looks like it might fit in the bottom with a bit of work. But honestly, with the bottom feed grill of the Stacker, a quiet standard 120mm fan PSU will stay pretty quiet, it won't be pulling in hot air from in the case anyway. ie, the Nexus 850 will probably be just about as quiet as any of the other top rated quiet PSUs.

"Coil Whine"... Can this happen in all PSUs? Or does it only occur in PSUs with a specific design issue?

Yes. Some poorly designed PSUs seem to whine more, sometimes it seems interactive, but there's no guarantee, it seems, against it.

Anyway I still think you way overestimate your power needs, but that's neither here nor there.

burebista · Post by **burebista** » Mon Aug 31, 2009 8:36 pm

Mastakilla wrote:If anyone knows anything else I should consider

I told you on XS, take a look at Corsair HX850. Here is cheaper than Seasonic or Zalman.

Mastakilla · Post by **Mastakilla** » Tue Sep 01, 2009 5:06 am

MikeC wrote:
Mastakilla wrote:
MikeC wrote:Between the Zalman and the Seasonic, the latter is the better choice.
I know.... but that price
You can't ask for the best then whine about the price of the best. If that's not good, then try sticking a CP-850 in the Stacker. Looks like it might fit in the bottom with a bit of work. But honestly, with the bottom feed grill of the Stacker, a quiet standard 120mm fan PSU will stay pretty quiet, it won't be pulling in hot air from in the case anyway. ie, the Nexus 850 will probably be just about as quiet as any of the other top rated quiet PSUs.

"Coil Whine"... Can this happen in all PSUs? Or does it only occur in PSUs with a specific design issue?

Yes. Some poorly designed PSUs seem to whine more, sometimes it seems interactive, but there's no guarantee, it seems, against it.

Anyway I still think you way overestimate your power needs, but that's neither here nor there.

I know the best usually comes with a high price... but still... 194 euro....

I'll look at my case later to see if it would be possible to mod the CP-850 in...

I don't think I trust the Zalman anymore (with all the reports about "Coil Whine", even AFTER getting a replacement...)

and about the overestimation: please check the XS thread again... some people apparently do get very high powerconsumption, so I guess it is better to be safe than sorry

(I know what kind of weird / random / unfindable / unexplainable errors a PSU being too weak can cause... I don't want my PSU to be the cause for instability)

burebista wrote:
Mastakilla wrote:If anyone knows anything else I should consider
I told you on XS, take a look at Corsair HX850. Here is cheaper than Seasonic or Zalman.

Thanks a lot for the tip!

I didn't really consider this one yet and it does seem like a very nice powersupply for its price

I only can't find any decent comparisons of the noise it makes

Most reviews do mention that it is louder than other "silent PSUs"

Especially at high load (75% and up) it gets extremely loud according to:
http://enthusiast.hardocp.com/article/2 ... r_supply/6

But I can nowhere find how it compares to the Seasonic or Antecs below this high load (which I'll hardly reach hopefully)

Can anyone tell me?

EsaT · Post by **EsaT** » Tue Sep 01, 2009 12:30 pm

Mastakilla wrote:Most reviews do mention that it is louder than other "silent PSUs"
Especially at high load (75% and up) it gets extremely loud according to:
http://enthusiast.hardocp.com/article/2 ... r_supply/6
But I can nowhere find how it compares to the Seasonic or Antecs below this high load (which I'll hardly reach hopefully)

Those heatsinks have lot smaller surface area so it would be natural to have fan running at higher speed than in PSUs with actual heatsinks instead of Alu plates.

Mastakilla · Post by **Mastakilla** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 9:31 am

EsaT wrote:
Mastakilla wrote:Most reviews do mention that it is louder than other "silent PSUs"
Especially at high load (75% and up) it gets extremely loud according to:
http://enthusiast.hardocp.com/article/2 ... r_supply/6
But I can nowhere find how it compares to the Seasonic or Antecs below this high load (which I'll hardly reach hopefully)
Those heatsinks have lot smaller surface area so it would be natural to have fan running at higher speed than in PSUs with actual heatsinks instead of Alu plates.

http://www.driverheaven.net/reviews.php ... 5&pageid=6
in the above review they indeed also mention the small heatsinks could use some improvements to improve the accoustics

not sure if I'll take the risk to see if it is more silent than the rest of my system... damn... and it looked all so nice and cheap...

In meanwhile I also had a look to see if I could mod the Antec CP-850 in my CM Stacker case and HOLY COW that PSU is HUGE!!!
Then length and height I can overcome by placing it in the middle bottom of the case, but the width cannot be overcome... my mobo will be in the way for that... I cannot fit it inside, nomatter how hard I would try... So I guess the Antec CP-850 also is no option

So then only the uber expensive Seasonic M12D remains

hopefully a miracle happens soon and they slash prices by 50%, cause I'm still not feeling too well about that price

Migi06 · Post by **Migi06** » Sun Sep 06, 2009 1:27 pm

So then only the uber expensive Seasonic M12D remains :(quote]

hopefully a miracle happens soon and they slash prices by 50%, cause I'm still not feeling too well about that price :(

There is cheaper seasonic M12 non modulars coming (could be just rumors).. I was the XS guy wich didn't recommond to get cwt corsairs (750-1000W) just because 140mm fan will be noisier than 120mm in same speed (more airflow) and 140mm fan is spinning about 1100rpm www(dot)anandtech(dot)com/casecoolingpsus/showdoc.aspx?i=3445&p=8 when enermax modu/pro 82+ 120mm fan is spinning ~500rpm (if I remember right corsair hx620/520 fan rpm is 600-700rpm at the start..)

Also IÂ´m not 100% sure about those corsair (140mm) units, are they all spinning like 1100pm because their fan control arent so agressive anymore.. Those corsairs are still great value if you dont mind about little more noise (you can always upgrade later for better like in these new seasonic gold psu:s www(dot)techreport(dot)com/discussions(dot)x/17025)..

Damn these "You must have x posts before you can post URL's/Links."