Minimizing seek noise

sctakeshi · Post by **sctakeshi** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 9:48 pm

(Also please check out my more general thread here)

For me the most annoying sound is the seek noise caused by the hard drive. Mainly because it is sporadic, chaotic, unpredictable, random, and unconstant. At least the sound from a fan is more white-noise-ish and constant, so you can get used to it. Not so with HDD seek noise.

I don't mind the seek noise when I'm actually using the computer; however, my new computer is in my bedroom and since I want to leave it on at night (for several reasons, including a planned backup routine at 5AM) I want to be able to sleep in the same room. Unfortunately even when I'm not using the computer Windows still seeks the HDD.

So I have a few questions:

1) Is there a way to make Windows leave the HDD alone when I'm not actually doing something?

2) Does Windows only arbitrarily seek the HDD it is actually installed on? e.g. if I have 3 HDDs, will Windows leave the 2 it is not installed on alone? I ask because then it might be feasible to get a really small, quiet-seeking HDD just for Windows and keep my current drives as long as Windows won't constantly be seeking them as well.

3) What the best HDD in terms of seek noise? Obviously I'd want it to be quiet in other aspects as well but seek noise is the most important.

Thanks.

Edward Ng · Post by **Edward Ng** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 10:07 pm

Of all the 3.5" drives I've tried, the Seagate Barracuda 7200.7 of 40GB capacity (model ST340014A) had the quietest seeks I (n)ever heard; the seeks were 100% completely inaudible, even with the case wide open. The drive uses only a single platter and only one side of that platter, so only a single head. The super low mass of having only a single head makes the seeks completely inaudible; even though AAM is not possible on it, there'd be absolutely zero reason to enable it on that particular drive if it could be done.

No other member of the 7200.7 family comes even close to the ST340014A for seek silence. Neither did my Samsung SpintPoint SP1614N (for seeks); I couldn't really expect a four-head drive (two platters, double-sided) to be as quiet as while seeking as one with only one single-sided platter.

-Ed

BTW: WELCOME TO SPCR!!!

EDIT: Added to my thoughts.

Putz · Post by **Putz** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 10:24 pm

Others have commented that the Samsung SP80 has the quietest seeks around (for a 3.5"), at any capacity point. MikeC has also recently reviewed some 2.5" drives that are apparently really really quiet, though at a performance penalty.

Search these forums for threads dealing with suspending hard drives. That's the ticket to reducing seek noise with your current drive.

sctakeshi · Post by **sctakeshi** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:16 pm

Thanks. The 7200.7 40GB sounds good.

Doesn't the elastic suspension thing just reduce vibration, not seek noise? Or is seek noise caused by vibration? (?) I didn't think it was.

Edward Ng · Post by **Edward Ng** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:22 pm

Elastic suspension reduces both, seek, and idle noise. It reduces seek noise because the vibration of seeking will not translate into the case. The elastic suspension's decoupling will also reduce idle noise if the drive suffers a significant amount of case vibration from bearing shake (like in the case of all the WD Caviars I've had in recent memory; they're attrocious!@$!@#%#$^). In all honesty, decoupling by suspension reduces seek noise much more than it does idle noise, but on drives that have lousy non-FDB motors, it helps quite a bit on that front as well.

Decoupling is most useful for people with RAID arrays; you've not heard severe vibration translation issues until you've experienced quadruple WD400BBs hardmounted in an aluminum case...the waxing and waning, warbling shreak of the four drives all translating high-frequency, crappy-motor vibrations into the very same case is an absolutely devastating experience. The sound of four drives seeking in unison is also pretty amazing.

-Ed

EDIT: Just wanted to add that seek noise is not caused by vibration, it's the other way around; seek action causes higher order vibration in the drive's chassis, because the mass is pivoting and moving back and forth on a single axis. The only reason why poorer non-FDB motors produce that high-frequency case vibration is the fact that nothing in nature is truly, infinitely perfect, including the balancing of hard drive platters.

sthayashi · Post by **sthayashi** » Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:31 pm

Just to let you guys know, I just noticed my virus scanner running it's nightly scan.

Specifically, I noticed it when it got to my Raid-0 array, with 2 Seagate V 120GB drives. It was pretty easy to hear. However, it had ALREADY scanned my Raid-1 w/ 2 Samsung 40 GB drives without me noticing.

sctakeshi · Post by **sctakeshi** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 12:53 pm

I'd still like to know about my first two questions, though. Because if there is either (a) a way to make Windows leave my drives alone when I'm not actually doing something with them, or (b) if Windows, when you're not actively using the computer, only seeks the drive Windows is installed on, then I am a lot more confident that I can do something about the seek noise.

In the case of (a) I can just keep my current drives for now. In the case of (b) I can get a quiet-seeking drive like the 7200.7 40GB to install Windows on, and leave my current drives (Maxtor DM+9, WD Caviar; both 200GB) for storage. As long as Windows doesn't seek the storage drives while the computer is idle I should be okay.

Also, if the seek noise is made audible because it causes vibration, would a Zalman ZM-2HC1 cooler/heatpipe silence the seek noise? It is certainly a lot more feasible for me to do than elastic suspension right now.

Edward Ng · Post by **Edward Ng** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 1:07 pm

Unfortunately, I used the 2HC1 in the past with my SP1614N and it only could do so much to reduce seek noises. It does not compare to suspensions or just sitting the drive on top of foam or sorbothane. The good thing about the 2HC1 is that if you suspend the drive while it's mounted in a 2HC1 or mount the drive inside a 2HC1 and then place the entire assembly on top of sorbothane or foam, the 2HC1 does a good job of keeping the temps on the drive down, which would otherwise go up due to the fact that it is no longer thermally coupled somehow to release heat.

-Ed

sthayashi · Post by **sthayashi** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 1:14 pm

The answer to question a) Go to the control panel and select either Power Management or Power options. You can select drive spindown time there.

b) Yes, but only if you keep the swap file on the same drive that it's installed on. If you didn't understand the last sentence, then you already did it. Also, obviously there may be other programs that will access the drive. I don't know what you have installed, but sometimes spyware will do that.

sctakeshi · Post by **sctakeshi** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 1:33 pm

Yeah, I haven't messed with the swap file, so I should be good there. So, during system idle time, Windows will only write to the hard drive it is installed on? It will leave all the other drives alone? That's good news.

As for the "turn off hard disks" setting in power management, I know about that, but the problem is that when you're not using your computer, Windows takes this opportunity to perform a bunch of maintenance and idle tasks that write the to the hard drive. And as long as it keeps writing to the hard drive, the power management will never turn them off. http://support.microsoft.com/default.as ... -us;313300 I was wondering if there was a way to stop Windows from performing these tasks while the computer is idle.

Ed, I'm guessing that simply setting the drives (possible enclosed in Zalmans) on foam/sorbothane doesn't silence the seek noise in the way elastic suspension does? That would be too easy.

m0002a · Post by **m0002a** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 2:55 pm

Isolating the hard drives using a good (high-density) foam can eliminate audible idle and seek noise. I even have the drives screwed in, with a foam washer on the screws and a grommet through the drive cage hole, so there is no metal-to-metal contact anywhere, and the computer can be moved without further securing the hard drive.

sctakeshi · Post by **sctakeshi** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 3:33 pm

Can you furthur explain how to do that? Is there a tutorial or some pictures? You enclosed the HDD in foam and then mounted it in the case using foam washers on the screws?

m0002a · Post by **m0002a** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 4:13 pm

I described the method in detail with pics in this thread:
http://forums.silentpcreview.com/viewtopic.php?t=10450

The pics show how I did it with bottom mounted Sonata hard drive trays, but I also did a similar method (same materials) using a conventional hard drive cage with side mounting of the drives on a Gateway PIII.

Because the Gateway conventional hard drive cage had no clearance for grommets or foam, I had to bend the cage a bit to make it work. The hard drive cage on my old Gateway was removable, so I also isolated the cage with the same foam. The two 3.5 year-old IBM drives are virtually inaudible (I would say completely inaudible but the PSU is not the quietist around, even with a Panaflo mod).

I would emphasize to anyone who wants to try it, that foam is not foam, and I would only recommend a high density foam like the one shown. My original installation was with a low-density foam (weather-stripping), and I had to re-do it. Plus the foam I used is fire-rated for use around electrical circuits.

m0002a · Post by **m0002a** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 4:38 pm

As an addendum to the above post, the Gateway drive cage did not accommodate grommets, so in addition to bending the cage to make room, I had to drill out holes for grommets to fit. The grommets are necessary (even with the foam) so that the screws do not touch the metal cage.

You will need longer 6/32” machine screws to mount the drives (available at any hardware store). The length of the screws depends on the amount of foam used, but should be about ½” to ¾” long.

Grommets can be purchased at ACE hardware (or maybe Lowe’s) in small quantities (I got mine at McMaster-Carr, but had to purchase a pack of 20 or so and also pay shipping). Soak the grommets in soapy water before installation, and then wipe dry (or wash the soap off the mounted grommets if you entire cage is removable).

sctakeshi · Post by **sctakeshi** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 8:51 pm

If I can figure out how to do what you did (i'm not sure I'm following what you did with the actual drive cage??? I have a Raidmax A268 case...) then would that be able to make the seek noises of my drives (a Maxtor DiamondMax+9 200GB (6Y200P0) and a Western Digital Caviar 200GB (WD2000JB)) completely inaudible from just barely 4 feet away where I sleep?

m0002a · Post by **m0002a** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 9:07 pm

In looking at your drive cage for the Raidmax A268, that might a tough one. But it appears that the mounting hole for the screws protrude inward somewhat, so that if the drives were mounted a little higher (you would have to drill new screw holes and bend the flange out of the way) there might be enough room for a grommet and some foam.

I can't tell for sure, but it might also be possible to remove one side of the cage and drill new holes where the cage mounts to the case frame. Then you could reposition the side of the cage over just a bit to make it wider, in order to accommodate the grommets and some foam.

On my Gateway drive cage, it was sort of an removable "A" frame (with a flat top) so I was able to bend the frame to make it wider at the bottom. This meant that drive on top had fewer layers of foam (and shorter screws) than the lower drive to account for the wider bottom. It’s not pretty, but for an old PIII it’s a lot quieter.

sctakeshi · Post by **sctakeshi** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 9:49 pm

Alright, I just posted a more broad thread about my dilemma in all its scope on the General board here, so any suggestions are welcome.

m0002a · Post by **m0002a** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 10:56 pm

Here is detailed drawing of how I did the side-mounting in the Gateway drive cage. I had to bend out the cage to make room for the extra foam and grommet on the inside of the cage. See this link for a detailed description of the foam.
http://forums.silentpcreview.com/viewtopic.php?t=10450

Edward Ng · Post by **Edward Ng** » Fri Mar 12, 2004 11:06 pm

Whoa! He's got diagram!!!

croddie · Post by **croddie** » Sat Mar 13, 2004 12:00 am

I hear you can move the system cache and temporary internet files to RAM (cookies too, but you'll want a program to save them to disc on turning the computer off). If you have lots of memory, couldn't you make a RAM disk and put the swap file there? Or even turn it off altogether?

burcakb · Post by **burcakb** » Sat Mar 13, 2004 12:13 am

There's no way to stop windows from seeking. It's not just the swap file either. Windows has several logs that it keeps. You can turn off most through the security settings in Administrative tools, but there are some that'll stay. And AFAIK, you can't route them to a RAMDisk

Plus, if you say you've got a 5AM backup, it seems to me that you have to silence ALL your drives, no?

sctakeshi · Post by **sctakeshi** » Sat Mar 13, 2004 12:56 am

Well, I figured that at 5AM I'd already be asleep, and I don't think the seek noise would be loud or erratic enough to wake me up; just to keep me from falling asleep in the first place. But silencing all my drives would obviously be nice; I just figured if I could at least silence the system one, I'd be one up. Presuming Windows only seeks the system drive when the PC is idle, not all of the drives.

Putz · Post by **Putz** » Sat Mar 13, 2004 1:45 am

Good luck getting Windows to completely stop seeking to the system drive... it's more trouble than it's worth. If you would like a dedicated system drive that has much, much quieter seeks, look into Samsung SP80s, and perhaps some of the 2.5" alternatives.

Your Western Digital drive is one of the loudest ATA drives available, and the Maxtor isn't really very quiet either, if I understand correctly. Consider trying the Hitachi Feature Tool to enable AAM (Advanced Acoustic Management) on both drives, if possible. (You can find the tool in the Links section of SPCR.)

Drive suspension isn't as difficult as you seem to think it is. I can't be sure, since I don't have photos of your actual rig, but I would imagine that with a little bit of ingenuity, you could reduce the seek noise considerably by either bungee/elastic suspension, or foam isolation. Consider, for instance, suspending your drives vertically within the confines of the tall 3.5" rack.

JimK · Post by **JimK** » Sat Mar 13, 2004 12:47 pm

If you use the Hitachi tool or Maxtor's tool AMSet to quiet the DM+9 you will have one of the quietest seeking drives around (second to the new Samsungs acording to C't). As others have said the WD had an annoying idle noise and does not quiet down much with acoustic management.

Halcyon's post of the C't data in another HDD noise thread.

If you replace one, make it the WD!

Edit: Spelling stupidly

Putz · Post by **Putz** » Sat Mar 13, 2004 1:48 pm

Agreed.

JVM · Post by **JVM** » Sat Mar 13, 2004 5:06 pm

Edward Ng wrote:Unfortunately, I used the 2HC1 in the past with my SP1614N and it only could do so much to reduce seek noises. It does not compare to suspensions or just sitting the drive on top of foam or sorbothane. The good thing about the 2HC1 is that if you suspend the drive while it's mounted in a 2HC1 or mount the drive inside a 2HC1 and then place the entire assembly on top of sorbothane or foam, the 2HC1 does a good job of keeping the temps on the drive down, which would otherwise go up due to the fact that it is no longer thermally coupled somehow to release heat.

-Ed

How bad was the seek noise with your SP1614N in a Zalman ZM-2HC1 mounted without foam in a 5.25" bay?

I have the SP0812C 80GB drive in the Zalman and it is very quiet even when defragging.

sctakeshi · Post by **sctakeshi** » Sat Mar 13, 2004 5:49 pm

I tried the Hitachi Feature Tool and I can't get it to actually change the AAM mode for either of my drives. I choose a mode and then when I click Test or OK, it just resets back to whatever it was before. Also, oddly enough, I cannot hear the seeks on my Western Digital drive at all when I do a Test in the Hitachi Feature Tool. It's the Maxtor that I can really hear. The whine might be coming from the WD drive (I don't know, and as of now I can't hear the whine over my fans), but the seeking seems much, much louder on the Maxtor.

And Maxtor's AMSET doesn't even see my drives, but I'm running it from Safe Mode Command Prompt, not pure DOS

EDIT: Nevermind! I got it! It seems to work great!!! I just ticked the AAM level down a few notches, and the difference is astounding. I can't hear the seek noise at all over my fans. Once I replace my fans that might change but I couldn't even really hear it even with my head up to the side of the case when it was in Test in the Hitachi feature tool, so that seems to bode well. Much thanks

If I can hear it after the fans get replaced I might turn the AAM up even more, and/or sit the drives on foam. Maybe eventually elastic. But for right now, fans still roaring, the seek noise is all but gone beneath the fans. Excellent.

ahrbruz · Post by **ahrbruz** » Sat Mar 13, 2004 8:33 pm

My solution. The only time I hear seek noise is when I open Sandra. I ,have no idea if it is the Samsung or the Seagate' as it takes a second or two to cycle. Otherwise, on all applications todate, no noise whatsoever from my hard drives.

I've sketched/scanned a 'profile' of my mod; I can sketch quicker than fiddling with 'Paint" etc.

http://f2.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/ahrbru ... .dir=/207b

'where will silencing end?'

RBC

ahrbruz · Post by **ahrbruz** » Sat Mar 13, 2004 8:47 pm

Anticipating the next questions:

Samsung SP1213N

Seagate ST360015A

The front fan, EverCool 120mm is disconnected at present, HDD's are still cool, and quiet.

Edward Ng · Post by **Edward Ng** » Sat Mar 13, 2004 9:15 pm

My SP1614N was enveloped in a double layer of very thin packing foam when it was in that half-height bay. The seeks were audible, but they were low frequency rumble-like sounds. It's far less intrusive, but still noticeable. The seeks (on my SP1614N) were most definitely louder than my ST340014A's 100% inaudible seeks. The idle of the Samsung, however, was extremely low, versus my Seagate's slight high-pitch whine.

Oh, let me not forget to mention, when I set the AAM from high perf to low noise, it faded the seeks out quite a bit! I still decided, in the end, to switch because of the wind noise of the Samsung's idle. However, with AAM on, the drive's seeks were harder to notice when it was in the half-height bay; when I moved it down to my case floor and sat it on top of the block of packing foam, the seeks faded away even more, and were quite difficult to hear. The wind-whir of the motor, at that point, was louder than the seeks.

Either way, none of those two drives compared at all, in terms of silence, to the MTH2080AT, housed inside a SilentDrive enclosure, sitting on foam; it's 100% dead silent (no, really!). The noise left in Sigma One is purely that of the exhaust fan, which can only be heard either directly behind the computer, or from the sides or up front only when pressing your ear against the case. The temps of this setup are also superior to any of my previous setups. The highest temp this drive reaches, ever, is 42C, and that's after like an hour and a half of straight defragging. Left to idle overnight, the temp is a cool 29C in the mornings, and my room is not all that cool; I sleep with a thin cover and that's it.

-Ed