Seagate answers about 7200.8

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JazzJackRabbit
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Post by JazzJackRabbit » Thu Jul 29, 2004 4:39 pm

Thanks for the info, nothing new really except for the general date when they'll go on sale. I'd be interested to know prices too. Keep my fingers crossed that 400Gb will be less than $300...

This piece kind of puzzled me though:
Seagate has decided that we will no longer support AAM.

Our drives are extremely quiet while operating at the highest performance levels, so we believe the ability to switch between Modes is unnecessary. If you want a utility that will switch AAM modes you must procure it from a third party. Seagate cannot make any recommendations as to what third party utility you choose to use, nor do we in any way support the utilities. However you can perform an Internet search for Automatic Acoustic Management and select from the available 3rd party.

Now what the heck did they want to say? As far as I can conclude Seagate drives will support AAM, but Seagate won't provide any tools to manage it? :?:

Rusty075
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Post by Rusty075 » Thu Jul 29, 2004 5:11 pm

That's exactly what they're saying.

AAM implementation isn't a technical issue, its a legal issue. Seagate is involved in a patent infringement lawsuit with MIT and Convolve, over algorithms used in their AAM firmware.

(Those with a love of math will be excited about the fact that the patent in question involves the use of partial fraction expansion equations! :lol: )

That Seagate response sounds like a tongue-in-cheek explanation of how they are skating around the injunction. They can't use the patent's information, but there's nothing stopping them from making the drives themselves capable of doing so, with the help of an independent (and thus independently legally liable) third party. It's the same principle behind the fact that you can't sue your car company for making a car that goes fast enough to get you a speeding ticket.




What struck me funniest was the comparison between the response that Cactus got:
Seagate has decided that we will no longer support AAM. Our drives are extremely quiet while operating at the highest performance levels, so we believe the ability to switch between Modes is unnecessary. If you want a utility that will switch AAM modes you must procure it from a third party. Seagate cannot make any recommendations as to what third party utility you choose to use, nor do we in any way support the utilities. However you can perform an Internet search for Automatic Acoustic Management and select from the available 3rd party.
...and the language in the original Seagate press release a couple of years ago about why they were dropping AAM support:
Seagate has decided that we will no longer support AAM. Seagate is in the process of removing all product information pertaining to the support of AAM. Our drives are extremely quiet while operating at the highest performance levels, so we believe the ability to switch between Modes is unnecessary. We are also involved in patent litigation with Convolve and MIT. Although we believe the lawsuit is without merit, Convolve alleges that one of its patents, US Patent No. 6,314,473, covers AAM technology

:wink:

Perhaps Seagate is hedging their bets that during the lifespan of the 7200.8 models the lawsuit will be settled. Maybe they know something we don't.

wim
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Post by wim » Thu Jul 29, 2004 9:02 pm

However you can perform an Internet search for Automatic Acoustic Management and select from the available 3rd party.
woohoo :twisted: hooray for legal loopholes.
this sounds like very good news :D

luminous
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Post by luminous » Fri Jul 30, 2004 4:23 am

Oh yes, I'm already starting to get excited by these new drives (sad I know). If we can finally have an AAM enabled Seagate drive computing life will become so much nicer. So the race is now on, who can find a 3rd party program to do the job.

As a side note, I believe that quite a few manufacturers read the SPCR board. If someone who is reading this happens to be "in the know", I would like to remind you that you can register here for free and post any information you wish........

luminous
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Post by luminous » Fri Jul 30, 2004 9:55 am

CactusInvasion wrote:
luminous wrote:If we can finally have an AAM enabled Seagate drive computing life will become so much nicer. So the race is now on, who can find a 3rd party program to do the job.
I rest assured that somehow the Hitachi tool will be able to save us.
I sure hope so :D

dan
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Post by dan » Sat Jul 31, 2004 8:46 am

a single platter version @ 2.0 bels 7200rpm and 16mb cache would be sweet.

the pdf however lists its platter @ 120mb and 250mb as its lowest capacity.

Mats
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Re: Seagate answers about 7200.8

Post by Mats » Tue Aug 17, 2004 1:53 pm

Seagate wrote: The drives have been released, but to the OEM manufacturers. We do not have an exact date for release to the open market but the date they were announced preceeds their actual availability by approximately 120 days. The drives are pre-sold to manufacturers for at least that much time.
So my question is, where are they?
If PC manufacturers got their hands on them at the same time as the announcement was made two months ago, they should have entered the market, maybe in some Dell or HP. I'm surprised that we haven't heard about any review (or have we?).

BTW, 100 GB in the new 2.5" Momentus 5400.2 & 7200.1 models, wow!

Mats
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Post by Mats » Tue Aug 17, 2004 2:59 pm

Well they might be just around the corner.
www.span.com , a UK store specialised in data storage with a big selection of HDs have ALL the new Seagates (nine different 7200.8, 250/300/400 GB), you just can't buy them yet. Ok, maybe they're just doing this just for the attention, but I doubt it. They even got the 7200.7 80/120/160 GB SATA with NCQ enabled. I haven't seen it until now.

I've sent a mail to them about the 7200.8, let's wait and see.

luminous
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Post by luminous » Tue Aug 17, 2004 3:06 pm

That is a nice little link you have given us there. 16Mb cache, mmmm, very nice. Definately going to have to get a pair for Christmas.

Ok, you can call me stupid if you like, but what's NCQ?

Mats
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Post by Mats » Tue Aug 17, 2004 3:45 pm

Native Command Queuing, it's for increasing the performance for HDs. I think it's the next big thing but I cannot describe it very well. It's about making the HD read/write the data in a more optimal and efficient order (=faster) .

The drawback? I haven't heard about any motherboard that supports it, you need a card. Haven't heard about any cards either, but they're coming soon. These HDs are of course backwards compatible so you can use it without the NCQ feature. NCQ is for SATA only.
There's also TCQ, Tagged Command Queuing, don't know what it is. Check Storagereview.

Question: The 200 GB 7200.7 is the only one with NCQ right now, am I right?

Just a thought:
A 5400 rpm HD with say, 16 or 32 MB cache and NCQ could be quiet and have low temps, but what about performance? Maybe good enough?......

Mats
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Post by Mats » Tue Aug 17, 2004 4:01 pm

More about NCQ here
SEAGATE SHOWS SATA WITH NCQ CAN BEAT 10K SATA
So, a 7200NCQ can beat a 74 GB WD Raptor according to Seagate.... ..interesting.
Last edited by Mats on Wed Aug 18, 2004 3:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

luminous
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Post by luminous » Wed Aug 18, 2004 3:31 am

Interesting indeed. I'm definately looking forward to a review by SPCR of a 7200.8. Its rare that technology really gets me excited, but the propect of a fast quiet large HDD is very appealing.

Mats
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Post by Mats » Wed Aug 18, 2004 4:00 am

I got my answer!

"When will you start selling the new Seagate Barracuda 7200.8 models (250-400 GB) ?"
hi,
these should be available in the next few weeks
thanks


...SWEET! :D

MIKE C: Haven't you heard anything about the new HDs in Canada/USA lately? Please tell me that you secretly have a 400 GB at home for testing!

manalainen
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Post by manalainen » Thu Aug 19, 2004 11:11 am

Oh great...

After a long and carefull searching around I placed an order two days ago for a 7200.7 200GB SATA HDD (supposedly not yet with NCQ but who can utilize it now? Not me...)

Well, I don´t care to cancel the order because I got a nice price for the drive and I think that it is gonna fulfill my needs untill I upgrade my comp in a major way. And I still don´t think we are going to see those in Finland `till late october anyhow. Bummer still...

But good to hear that those 7200.8´s are on the way, I´m really excited about the prospect of getting a hold of a pair of those 250´s for my home AV server...

Mats
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Post by Mats » Thu Aug 19, 2004 11:54 am

manalainen wrote:After a long and carefull searching around I placed an order two days ago for a 7200.7 200GB SATA HDD (supposedly not yet with NCQ but who can utilize it now? Not me...)
Are you sure? When the 200 GB model was announced they said it had NCQ, I THINK. Not sure at all.

Anyway, I think the platter size is confusing. Seagate says 133 GB, but the single platter version is 120 GB. What about the big ones? What do they prefer manufacturing? 3 platters versus 133 GB platters? I guess the 133 GB platter is more expensive, thus only using it for the 400 GB version.

2.5x100 = 250
3x100 = 300

2x120 = 240
2.5x120 = 300
3x120 =360

2x133 = 266
2.5X133 = 332.5
3x133 = 399

The red numbers are the possible ones, which means that they all are 3 platter versions.

EDIT:I hope I'm wrong... :?
Last edited by Mats on Thu Aug 19, 2004 12:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

luminous
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Post by luminous » Thu Aug 19, 2004 12:04 pm

May I just point out the obvious mistake...... the figures in the middle would suggest you want to make a 2.5 platter drive ! :D :D

I'm being pedantic, I know :)

I suppose that Seagate may use different sized platters in a single series of drives. Personally, I would have thought that once they manage to get up to steam with the 133 GB platters they would just use those. I have heard of rumours that a 120 GB platter can be made from a 133 GB platter that has failed QC. The relevant areas are then just ignored by the 120 GB drive. I think those rumours came from a forum some time ago, not sure how accurate they are mind.

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Post by Mats » Thu Aug 19, 2004 12:21 pm

luminous wrote:May I just point out the obvious mistake...... the figures in the middle would suggest you want to make a 2.5 platter drive ! :D :D
A HD with 133 platters with 2.5 GB? Now that would really be something.... :lol:
OR, a platter with 2.5 sides? Hmm...
OR, (most likely) a 2.5" (inch) platter?

For everybody else looking for a normal HD I meant
[>>>Edit<<<] [number of platters used x platter size]
luminous wrote:I'm being pedantic, I know :)
Me too!
Last edited by Mats on Fri Aug 20, 2004 2:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

Tobias
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Post by Tobias » Fri Aug 20, 2004 1:39 am

errr, I think that you realy mean numbers of platters used (one platter, two sides) times the amount of space per side...

Mats
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Post by Mats » Fri Aug 20, 2004 1:58 am

Of course. I was tired when I wrote it. Thanks Tobias!

Mats
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Post by Mats » Sun Aug 22, 2004 6:32 am

Intel 9xx chipsets have NCQ, I think it's optional though.

Does anybody know if any A64 chipset got it yet?

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Post by MikeC » Sun Aug 22, 2004 9:32 am

MIKE C: Haven't you heard anything about the new HDs in Canada/USA lately? Please tell me that you secretly have a 400 GB at home for testing!
No such luck. Seagate is about the most unresponsive HDD maker -- they've never ever even exchanged emails with me.... in any serious fashion. Even after I meet with their reps at trade shows.

Mats
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Post by Mats » Mon Aug 23, 2004 3:20 pm

Mats wrote:Does anybody know if any A64 chipset got it yet?
I found it. No present chipsets have NCQ, but Nforce 4 Ultra and VIA K8T890 Pro will. (and PT894 Pro (Intel))

Edit: Watch out! Many VIA K8T890 mobos uses the older 8237 southbridge, it's the 8251 that have NCQ.

SIS doesn't seem to have it.

Haven't found anything about ATI.
Last edited by Mats on Thu Nov 04, 2004 5:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

Mats
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Post by Mats » Sun Oct 03, 2004 5:12 pm

Found some 7200.8 in Australia:

7200.7 200 GB 175 AUD = 121 USD

7200.8 250 GB 365 AUD = 253 USD

7200.8 400 GB 940 AUD = 652 USD!!!

Yeah, of course the price will drop. But i haven't seen so expensive HDs for many years, the 400 GB Hitachi goes for 470 USD in Sweden (413 in the US). That's quite a lot.

That got me thinking, add another 200 GB to my 160 GB (with added power consumption and noise) very cheap, or sell my 160 GB and buy a 400 GB? Stupid question, the latter would cost me three times more. I guess I have to wait and see what the new one goes for. Still hoping that it's incredible silent.... still haven't seen anything though, have you?

Mats
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Post by Mats » Sun Oct 03, 2004 5:31 pm

The 500 GB version is on it's way too! From Storagereview:
Hello,

Thank you for the inquiry.

250GB ATA is due out during the Sept/Oct. time frame.

300GB ATA is due out during the Sept/Oct. time frame.

400GB ATA is due out during the Sept/Oct. time frame.

500GB ATA is due out during the Jan 05 time frame.

Regards,

Robert A.
Disc Presales

I saw this too, not so good, and very confusing since some stores have them for sale (not in stock though).
Seagate is working hard to release this model as soon as possible. The
ETA date changes constantly from distributor to distributor but we are
tentatively looking forward to see this drive in around December - January
time frame.

Regards,

Ahiezer B.
Disc Presales

croddie
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Post by croddie » Sun Oct 03, 2004 7:44 pm

Mats wrote:Native Command Queuing...
The drawback? I haven't heard about any motherboard that supports it, you need a card. Haven't heard about any cards either, but they're coming soon. These HDs are of course backwards compatible so you can use it without the NCQ feature. NCQ is for SATA only.
Could I ask what I have to do if I want one of these drives? My computer only has IDE; I take it I need a PCI SATA controller - preferably with this NCQ? (Edit - checked on the web and it seems that NCQ doesn't need any special hardware as it is all worked out on the disc.) The PC can boot from one of these controllers I suppose?

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Post by silencery » Sun Oct 03, 2004 11:58 pm

Just a quick note, hitachi feature tool does not work on the 7200.7's.

Reads as "acoustic management not supported."

Well at least not for my 80G SATA.
Last edited by silencery on Mon Oct 04, 2004 12:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

Mats
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Post by Mats » Sun Oct 03, 2004 11:59 pm

croddie wrote:(Edit - checked on the web and it seems that NCQ doesn't need any special hardware as it is all worked out on the disc.)
No, you need a SATA controller that supports it, read my other posts in this thread. PCI cards with this function will come too.

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Post by Ralf Hutter » Mon Oct 04, 2004 5:28 am

silencery wrote:Just a quick note, hitachi feature tool does not work on the 7200.7's.

Reads as "acoustic management not supported."

Well at least not for my 80G SATA.
Actually, the HFT is working fine. AAM is not supported on those drives due to a lawsuit against Seagate.

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