Defective Samsung 250 GB SATA. tell me your experiences

Silencing hard drives, optical drives and other storage devices

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arga
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Defective Samsung 250 GB SATA. tell me your experiences

Post by arga » Mon Dec 12, 2005 5:38 pm

Hello.
I am a happy user of 5 Samsung drives from the "80 series", (4 V80 and 1 P80). All of them 160 GB drives.
No problems.

But now I have purchased 1 drive of the new P120 series.
Its a 250 GB, SATA II.

After failed attempts of formatting it, it was dead, "CLONKING", and not booting.
Now its RMA, and waiting for replacement.

I would like to read the experiences from other users of this same disk.
Anyone has had problems with this disk? I don't mean noise problems. I mean defects.

As you know, this particular drive model (250 GB SATA) has suffered of heavy shortages everywhere, and I wonder if Samsung has manufacturing problems... In fact, when I ordered this drive, I was already very afraid of getting a bad drive, and alas, my fears materialized!!

Now I am afraid of a bad replacement disk...

that is why I want to hear of other users...

nici
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Post by nici » Tue Dec 13, 2005 9:11 am

I bought a 200Gb model wich just clonked when plugged in, it didnt even get recognized in the BIOS.. Needless to say i returned it and got my money back.

Edirol
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Post by Edirol » Tue Dec 13, 2005 10:04 am

I have 2 (sequential serial #s) and they are still working fine in a RAID0 config. Had it since Aug/Sep I think.

charger2000
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Post by charger2000 » Tue Dec 13, 2005 10:27 am

mmmhhh... :? I have two brand new 2504C wich I gave up installing Win Xp on it, apparently due to an unreliable Sapphire PC-A9RD480 Advantage, but with two Maxtor it had no probs... now I have to test them on a Gigabyte GA-K8NF-9 ...

:?

mellon
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Post by mellon » Tue Dec 13, 2005 11:02 am

I've been happily using my P120 250GB for about three months. No problems.

Marc
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Are they really quiet???

Post by Marc » Tue Dec 13, 2005 11:54 am

:?: :?:

Not to hijack your thread, but...

I've recently ordered two 250GB 2504C P120 drives, based on reviews of similar drives. The P80 and 200GB P120 have both been reviewed as exceptionally silent. From review data, I've inferred that the 250GB P120 SATA should be quiet as well.

Anybody care to validate (or refute) my belief that the 250GB 2504C P120 drives are really quiet? Image

arga
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Post by arga » Tue Dec 13, 2005 6:12 pm

@Marc:
about my P120, 250GB, SATA drive:
before dying, I had it running, and it was pretty silent.
The motor was Nidec. Vibration was small. Access noise was acceptable.

My previous Samsungs were from the 80 series, PATA, and all of them had JVC motors. Very silent too.

So I have nothing to complain about noise in the new P120 drive.

I forgot to say. My new drive was manufactured in Oct 2005. Unfortunately, I returned it without writing down the serial number.
Maybe the retailer can tell me what number it was (they probably keep this number for the warranty)

arga
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Post by arga » Tue Dec 13, 2005 6:30 pm

Something else:
before dying, I tried to format the drive in Windows.
Quick format worked, but long format always got stuck at 3%, making access noises.
Also, I tried to run Samsung DOS Diagnostics utility "HUTIL". But it could not even detect the SATA disk!! Only the other PATA disks showed up in the list!!
I thought that maybe this was normal, because the utility was running in DOS, and maybe DOS couldn't access SATA disks??

Latter, I entered Windows, and I tried to save a bunch of mp3 files into the disk, and before finishing, it started to CLONK-CLONK.
On next bootings, Windows could not even boot.

I also tried to disable SATAII mode via the special jumper, but it didn't make any difference.

For more details, you can go here:
http://forums.storagereview.net/index.p ... opic=21259

I posted this just after the incident.

arga
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Post by arga » Tue Dec 13, 2005 6:35 pm

another important detail: my drive was shipped without the classic transparent plastic shell. Instead, a cardboard "frame" was used as protection. (all my previous Samsung were packed with the plastic shell).

charger2000
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Post by charger2000 » Thu Dec 15, 2005 6:39 am

charger2000 wrote:mmmhhh... :? I have two brand new 2504C wich I gave up installing Win Xp on it, apparently due to an unreliable Sapphire PC-A9RD480 Advantage, but with two Maxtor it had no probs... now I have to test them on a Gigabyte GA-K8NF-9 ...

:?
BTW on the Gigabyte MB I had no probs at all..., so was an issue of the Sapphire MB... :roll:

arga
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Post by arga » Thu Dec 15, 2005 10:24 am

thanks charger2000.
Then your Samsungs are not "clonking". :)

rei
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Post by rei » Fri Dec 16, 2005 10:41 am

so what's the verdict, is the 250gb quieter than the heavy seeking 200g?

arga
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Post by arga » Fri Dec 16, 2005 11:57 am

rei wrote:so what's the verdict, is the 250gb quieter than the heavy seeking 200g?
I don't think there is any difference between both, why should be?

florecilla
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Post by florecilla » Fri Dec 16, 2005 12:29 pm

I have a spinpoint 160 gb drive. It is noticeably quieter than a seagate 200 gb that replaced it due to failure. It seems a few sectors are broken. I'll try to mount it on linux and recover some interesting info I had there. Hopefully, a good chunk of the drive should be accessible still.

Well, the point is the samsung went belly up and it seems to me seagates are sturdier and more reliable. I have 6 drives total: 4 in my 2 PC's (a ide-ata 80gb, sata 80gb, sata 160 gb and sata 200 gb) and 2 ide-ata 40gbs in 2 network boxes. They are still younglings (the oldest being 2 years old) but they haven't given me any trouble.

People might have different experiences but that's mine. If I recall correctly, samsung is, among the strong brands (seagate, maxtor, samsung, WD) the one with the shortest MTBF. Btw, I had the drive close to an intake in a negative presure case (Dell optiplex gx270) so I didn't cook it.

Tephras
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Post by Tephras » Fri Dec 16, 2005 1:48 pm

florecilla wrote: If I recall correctly, samsung is, among the strong brands (seagate, maxtor, samsung, WD) the one with the shortest MTBF.
Well, among those manufacturers Samsung is the only one, AFAIK, that specifies an MTBF for desktop drives. However, they all have specifications for service life and minimum contact start/stop cycles and these specifications are the same from all those manufacturers, 5 years for the former and 50,000 cycles for the latter.

florecilla
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Post by florecilla » Fri Dec 16, 2005 2:48 pm

Well, I have found a few links:

http://www.maxtor.com/_files/maxtor/en_ ... _sheet.pdf
http://www.seagate.com/docs/pdf/marketi ... 7200_9.pdf
http://www.westerndigital.com/en/produc ... riveID=133
http://www.samsung.com/Products/HardDis ... ifications

I know this is not an apples to apples comparison but it is very close. 100,000 hours bf give or take, I see: a WD hdd with 1.2 million hours bf and a Samsung with 600,000. The maxtor having 1 non recoverable bit error per 10^15 bits vs 1 in 10^14 in a Seagate. And the Seagate with the 5 year limited warranty. All but WD specify a 5 year component design life (well, who needs more these days, anyway?)

My personal feeling is: High class WD > Maxtor > Seagate > Samsung in terms of reliability. Noise may very well follow the inverse trend.

Speaking of anecdotal evidence: I remember hearing the old quantum fireball models were very strong (and I think the Maxtor designs inherit a lot from that model). Here in this part of Spain, Seagates have a good press among computer enthusiasts.

mathias
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Post by mathias » Fri Dec 16, 2005 5:46 pm

Maxtor more reliable than seagate? You must be joking.

wundi
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Post by wundi » Fri Dec 16, 2005 7:11 pm

Sorry but I very much question the sense in this thread. (writing this at five a.m. so please excuse me :o)

Creating hysteria around Samsung, based on what? FYI, all manufacturers make defective drives. Further, the shortages are mostly due to the huge sink that is the OEM market. (Personally I've had experience of 4 Samsungs including two P120s, and I've nothing bad to say about any of them. I've also owned 4 Maxtors, three of which have died and the remaining one I sold after it started sounding like a circular saw.)

Making judgements of desktop drives based on manufacturers' claimed MTBF must be almost as useful as comparing them by their specified noise output..

arga
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Post by arga » Sun Dec 18, 2005 7:25 pm

one important question:
My Samsung SP2504C (P120, SATAII, 250 GB) was shipped without the typical transparent plastic shell (box).
Instead, a a primitive cardboard enclosure was used.

This is not normal because all my previous Samsungs were shipped in the classic plastic box.

How was your drive shipped?

BangoO
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Post by BangoO » Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:37 am

rei wrote:so what's the verdict, is the 250gb quieter than the heavy seeking 200g?
I just bought one.
Seeks are very loud, a lot more than all my other drives with AAM (Maxtor, Samsung, IBM).
I can't keep it in my P180, it's just far too noisy :(
Enablind AAM did not change anything about that...

arga
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Post by arga » Mon Dec 19, 2005 4:46 pm

mine was not very loud. I didn't compare with my previous samsungs,
but access noises were acceptable.

Can anyone tell me how your drive was packaged when you purchased it?
I mean an OEM drive, not retail.
Model: Samsung SP2504C (P120, SATAII, 250 GB)

wing
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Post by wing » Mon Dec 19, 2005 5:59 pm

florecilla wrote:My personal feeling is: High class WD > Maxtor > Seagate > Samsung in terms of reliability. Noise may very well follow the inverse trend.
Another poster had said what I wanted to say.

However, to add my own words, I find that Maxtors I have bought have been the worst in terms of reliability; Seagates certainly are better in my experience. I sure hope I am wrong, since at work we have lots of Maxtors and so far we've had no problems with them :?

soujir0u
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Post by soujir0u » Mon Dec 19, 2005 6:06 pm

I ordered mine a few months back. It came in one of those plastic hard disk containers.

The seek noise is incredibly noisy, but at least it's still working.

As for drive reliabiliy, we have had our fair share of Maxtor and Seagate drives gone bad at work. I don't think any one is more reliable than the other...

arga
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Post by arga » Mon Dec 19, 2005 7:10 pm

mmmh, I wonder why my shop shipped my drive without the plastic container!!
well, they have emailed me today, confirming that the drive is dead, and they will ship another one.
I have asked for the retail boxed version (me paying the difference), lets see if they accept.


I have observed something that is very typical with any model/brand of hard disk. Some people report very silent drive, and some other people complain of loud noises-vibrations.
Possible explanations:
1. Manufacturing variability
2. Variability in the mounting of the hard drive from user to user.
3. Variability in the oppinion.
4. Some people lie.

nici
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Post by nici » Mon Dec 19, 2005 7:30 pm

arga wrote:
I have observed something that is very typical with any model/brand of hard disk. Some people report very silent drive, and some other people complain of loud noises-vibrations.
1. Manufacturing variability
2. Variability in the mounting of the hard drive from user to user.
3. Variability in the oppinion.
4. Some people lie.
Valid point..

When im speaking of noise i mean either lying on foam, suspended with elastic, silicone grommets in P180, or just keeping it in free air with my hand to have a listen. Anyway i think its useless reporting exerience on noise if the hdd is hard-mounted, that way most of the noise is most likely case vibration and rumble, wich varies from case to case also so not exactly a good start for comparing noise.

But since most people here most likely have their drives decoupled in some way, it seems to me that the Samsungs do have noticeable manufacturing variability.

Variability in opinion is also very true, how sensitive you are to noise and how low your ambient noise is. I for example am pretty sensitive to noise and have very low ambient noise.

Example: Me and my cousin have very similar setups both in P180s placed on the floor under similar desks, my cousins system has faster(=louder) fans and four HDDs whereas i only have two, yet sitting in front of the desk i cant hear his system even if i try, i can hear my system is on pretty clearly. The conclusion is that his apartment has higher ambient noise than mine, and something that i would not be able to hear at his place might be clearly audible in my place. Hopes this makes some sense :?

smilingcrow
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Post by smilingcrow » Wed Dec 21, 2005 6:38 am

I have a P120S 250GB; with AAC on the quietest setting and the drive resting on foam, it is very quiet. I’m defragging a heavily fragmented partition as I type this and I can’t hear any change in noise levels above the background ambience of the city.
I’m very happy with it and I also have a Samsung P80 160GB PATA in the same case and both are so quiet that I haven’t taken the time to compare them.
The overall system is quiet enough for me to sleep 14 feet away from it and I’m neurotic about noise.

I have had to return 2 P80s to Samsung in the past year after and I found their replacement service to be excellent on both occasions; contact Samsung on Monday, mail drive the same day and the replacement arrives on Wednesday.
So 2 out of the 5 or so Samsungs that my family run have failed in 12 months. That sounds bad, but I don’t think it’s statistically significant if you look at the market as a whole; you’d need a bigger sample.

I’m happy to buy more P120S and will do so in the New Year. Drive failure is a part of life and I’m considering a SATAII RAID5 setup with 3 P120S, so that the inevitable drive failure doesn’t cause any problems. The lack of transportability of a RAID array across platforms is making me question whether this is wise though.

I don’t remember the drive arriving in sub-standard packaging, so I’d say it probably didn’t.

arga
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Post by arga » Wed Dec 21, 2005 1:32 pm

Hello smilingcrow.
thanks for your very informative post.

I have talked with my retailer about my failed P120 drive.
They told me that they have sold 40 drives of the same model,
and only "1 or 2" have been returned.
They also told me a tale about OEM enclosures, saying that some providers ship the drives without the plastic enclosure... of course I
don't believe this part... I don't know about the 40/1or2 failure rate... maybe its also a lie.

Anyway, they have shipped me another disk as replacement, and I will have it tomorrow with me. Its another OEM drive, not retail (if I had got the retail version, I would have had to pay the shipping).

I will run a hard stress test the first days. If it has to die, I prefer it to die at the beginning.

Any recommendation about any stress test-benchmarking software?
I would like to have the disk stressed for 24 hors or so...

as I have said before, I own 6 former Samsung disks:
1 V40, 80 GB
4 V80, 160 GB
1 P80, 160 GB

All of them are still alive.
But note that 5 of them are 5400 rpm drives. Maybe they are more
durable than the 7200 rpm models...

smilingcrow
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Post by smilingcrow » Wed Dec 21, 2005 1:45 pm

arga wrote:Any recommendation about any stress test-benchmarking software?
I would like to have the disk stressed for 24 hors or so...
I can’t help you there, but I can suggest running the Samsung HD Utility in its most exhaustive mode, as that will scan the entire surface area of the disk. It should take a couple of hours to run.

Make sure that you set the jumper on the drive to the appropriate SATA setting, as some controllers will just fail to see the Samsung if they are SATA I and the Samsung is set to SATA II. I made this mistake and one of my controllers which was SATA I could see the drive, but give me occasional crashes. It was hard to diagnose as it was a new system build. The other on-board controller just couldn’t see the drive at all, which was preferable as that helped me diagnose the problem.

florecilla
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Post by florecilla » Wed Dec 21, 2005 3:18 pm

Two people have said they find Maxtors less reliable. Well, probably you are true. I said what it looked like to me by the manufacturers specs. Anyway, the 5 year Seagate warranty hints us they produce robust drives. Yes, I guess more reliable than Maxtor. Anyway, there is no point in discussing this anymore after the Maxtor buyout.

My limited experience is that Seagates are commonly used and rarely fail. In this part of Spain were I live, most people buy: AMD processors, Seagate hdd's, LG burners and screens, Kingston ram, Logitech mice and keyboards and el cheapo enclosures and PSU's. I can't get my hands on a P180 even at the reseller!

arga
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Post by arga » Wed Dec 21, 2005 6:14 pm

@smilingcrow:
yes, I will run Samsung utility HUTIL.
But this is not enough. There are programs that punish the drive
with a variety of heavy tasks for hours. This is a good way to
discover hidden weaknesses.

Re. the jumper, yes, with my faulty drive, at first I thought that could be
due to the jumper. So I put the jumper there, but no change. The drive remained dead. My current controller is an integrated SATA I.

@fierecilla:
Seagate is a very powerful brand. They are always the first ones to bring higher density platters to the market. _No shortages: all the shops have the Seagates in stock. And they give 5 year warranty. No wonder they are
able to buy Maxtor.

Regarding the P180... do you mean the Antec P180?
http://www.optize.es/servlet/CAJA_SEMIT ... ptize.html

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