Samsung 1TB F1 vs Western Digital 1TB GP vs Hitachi 7k1000

Telstar · Post by **Telstar** » Wed Oct 10, 2007 9:17 am

SileX wrote: Unless this one turns out to be better:

Samsung SpinPoint F1 1000GB 32MB SATA II (HD103UJ) <-- 3 platters!!!

It is faster. But more silent? I doubt that.

Goldmember · Post by **Goldmember** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:53 am

Telstar wrote:Why do you guys care so much about rotational speed?
The GP is silent, energy saver and a decent performer. Why bother about anything else?

Honestly, I have more important things in life to worry about than spindle speed. I just don't like being lied to. I can handle the truth.

The GreenPower seems to be the right choice for your HTPC for the reasons you mentioned. Good luck.

Telstar · Post by **Telstar** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:38 am

Goldmember wrote: The GreenPower seems to be the right choice for your HTPC for the reasons you mentioned. Good luck.

Tom tested the GP as well, but he "forgot" to measure the drive noise, LOL
The temperature is very low which is great btw.

http://www.tomshardware.com/2007/10/11/ ... index.html

andyb · Post by **andyb** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 5:00 am

I have just read Toms review, and again, there is no "evidence" that the drive actually runs at 7200rpm. The closest to evidence I saw in that article is the opposite, on the last page.

http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/wd-caviar ... 680-8.html

Power Consumption.

If anything, this is "evidence" that the drive never span at 7200rpm.

Some simple maths:

RPM - 5400 x 1.333 = 7200
Watts (load) - 12.2 x 1.333 = 16.26

It doesnt take a lot of imagination to see that the difference between the 18.4 Watts used by the 5 platter sHitachi is a little higher because of the extra platter.

This still looks like WD are lying, and this is a 5400 - 5400 rpm drive.

I expect the only way we will find out is if SPCR get one, they can then test the sound Hz and identify from that the RPM (with the drive under load).

Andy

Telstar · Post by **Telstar** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 5:28 am

If you want my opinion the drive runs at 5400rpm most if not all the time.
And I couldn't care less

andyb · Post by **andyb** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 6:15 am

Your opinion as an owner of this drive would be great, and I dont care what speed it runs at, I just dont like companies LYING to me.

Can you confirm whether or not the drive spins up at all.???

As it is I wouldnt touch a WD hard drive with a 30ft disinfected pole whilst wearing a HAZMAT suit, but lots of other people will, and I am sure many wont care what speed this drive runs at, but lots of people WILL, and DO care if the company is bullshitting them.

Andy

Telstar · Post by **Telstar** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 8:15 am

andyb wrote:Your opinion as an owner of this drive would be great, and I dont care what speed it runs at, I just dont like companies LYING to me.

Can you confirm whether or not the drive spins up at all.???

When I get the drives in my hands... if i can hear them close to my workstation

I wonder when WD got such bad reputation. I had'nt used em since the great JB series. Used only scsi and seagate sata drives more recently.

whiic · Post by **whiic** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 9:00 am

I have had my WD for several days now and I've listened to it. Not a bad sounding drive at all. Vibration a bit high for a 5400rpm drive. Idle noise smooth and muted. Makes weird buzzing when spinning up and some buzzing when reading/writing sequentially. Non-AAM seek is decent at ~15ms, AAM seek mode nearly inaudible at around ~23ms and reminds me of how good AAM implementation Maxtors had... the REAL Maxtors.

Heads are unloaded after ~5 seconds of idling, quite like laptop drives do. For comparison, Hitachi HDDs don't unload heads by default, and can be configured to unload in 2+ minutes. I have not experienced anything that suggests variable rpm, no sound of increasing rpm, no delays in response time after extended idle period, no change of noise volume, etc. What ever rpm it's running, it doesn't further reduce when idled for long periods of time. Also, no matter how much sequential or random I/O load you put up, it doesn't appear to ramp-up either.

Power consumption is very low, judging from temperatures. Laying the HDD on floor next to my computer so that there's next to no airflow over it, it idled just above 30 deg C and hit 40 deg C on load. Yet another reason to believe it's running at 5400rpm.

Overall I'm happy with it. Vibration is a bit higher that I expected.

Drive came by mail in a paper bag. I guess they (=Multitronic) have read WD's packaging instructions since they didn't use bubblewrap and styrofoam peanuts at all... but I guess they didn't quite understand the idea of packaging instructions as it arrived completely without anything soft. Just the paper bag and antistatic bag. No shaped styrofoam box, no foamy plastic, no SeaShell-type HDD box, no ...anything, nothing.

I figured out I'm not going to like what's (not) there as packaging material as I heard a banging sound when postal office clerk fetched the package and put it on table. Put it there... yet it sounded like it was thrown. Metal against metal (with a thin paper bag in between) makes a load sound after all...

lm · Post by lm » Fri Oct 12, 2007 1:38 pm

The mail system actually works by throwing and kicking packages around. I'd never take such delicate hardware with no protection. But perhaps you should ask WD if they really meant that or not? Perhaps HDD's can really be engineered so that they don't care squat when their heads are parked.

bystander · Post by **bystander** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 4:35 pm

whiic wrote:I have had my WD for several days now and I've listened to it. Not a bad sounding drive at all. Vibration a bit high for a 5400rpm drive. Idle noise smooth and muted. Makes weird buzzing when spinning up and some buzzing when reading/writing sequentially. Non-AAM seek is decent at ~15ms, AAM seek mode nearly inaudible at around ~23ms and reminds me of how good AAM implementation Maxtors had... the REAL Maxtors.

Heads are unloaded after ~5 seconds of idling, quite like laptop drives do. For comparison, Hitachi HDDs don't unload heads by default, and can be configured to unload in 2+ minutes. I have not experienced anything that suggests variable rpm, no sound of increasing rpm, no delays in response time after extended idle period, no change of noise volume, etc. What ever rpm it's running, it doesn't further reduce when idled for long periods of time. Also, no matter how much sequential or random I/O load you put up, it doesn't appear to ramp-up either.

Just wondering... Since the drive doesn't ramp up or slow down during use, does that mean the "weird buzzing when spinning up" only happens when you first power on the whole computer?

Also, what do you mean by "Heads are unloaded"? Does that make any intruding sounds?

Thanks a lot!

andyb · Post by **andyb** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 2:23 am

Thanks "whiic", its nice to know that WD are lying to us, but its even better to know the truth about the drive, its 5400 rpm and doesnt spin above that, so at the same Db measurement it should "seem" to be quieter than a 7200 rpm drive outputting the same Db as the human ear is more intun with the frequency of the 7200 rpm spin speed.

Drive came by mail in a paper bag. I guess they (=Multitronic) have read WD's packaging instructions since they didn't use bubblewrap and styrofoam peanuts at all... but I guess they didn't quite understand the idea of packaging instructions as it arrived completely without anything soft. Just the paper bag and antistatic bag. No shaped styrofoam box, no foamy plastic, no SeaShell-type HDD box, no ...anything, nothing.

Expect the drive to die soon, or just send it back complaining of NO packaging. I did that last year, they replaced the drive no further questions asked (I didnt even open it). I wasnt prepared to take the risk (being sold to a customer). And get them to pay for the cost of you sending it back to them, or get them to collect.

Andy

whiic · Post by **whiic** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 12:33 pm

bystander: "Since the drive doesn't ramp up or slow down during use, does that mean the "weird buzzing when spinning up" only happens when you first power on the whole computer?"

Exactly. (Unless you have spun down the HDD via software, for example with Windows power management, in which case it may happen when HDD is first accessed after a longer period of idle.)

Some kind buzz can also be hear when reading inner tracks. I'm not sure if it's exactly the same kind of noise. I cannot hear that buzz when mounted inside a computer because it may drown under other noise sources such as vibration induced noise, CPU cooler, PSU, other HDD. I only heard it when I had it outside the case and listened at close distance so I don't think it's anything to worry about. It's a quiet drive with quite nice noise character. It for example lacks all high-pitched whine.

bystander: "what do you mean by "Heads are unloaded"?"

Some desktop HDDs (and all laptop HDDs) unload heads outside outer diameter of the platters when HDD is powered down, to improve non-operational shock tolerance and wear caused by landing and take-off from platter surface (so called "landing zone" at the inner diameter of HDD that don't use unload technology).

Most of these HDDs even unload the heads out platters' outer diameter when long enough idle period is met, to reduce airflow resistance and thus save energy when idling. It also improves reliability by eliminating risk of head crash while in this state.

All manufacturers use it in laptop drives but only Hitachi (since 75GXP) and WD (since AAKS) use it in desktop drives. There's no news on when Seagate and Samsung intend to do the (inevitable) transition to unload technology.

Hitachi calls it "load/unload technology" and WD calls it "IntelliPark". I use Hitachi's terminology because it's far more descriptive. If you want to learn more, read this document.

bystander: "Does that make any intruding sounds?"

It depends on drive model and in WD GP it's quite non-obtrusive. It's like a series of two clicks (roughly the volume of AAM disabled seeks) when unloading or loading. Unloading and loading are roughly the same volume and can only be distinguished by the interval between the two clicks. Enabling AAM won't reduce the volume of unload/load clicks.

To compare the click, it's quite close to load/unload noise produced by my 7K400. You might think it's bad, but it's not. My 7K250 makes far worse load/unload noise than my 7K400. 7K250 clicks far louder than non-AAM seek but 7K400 just makes a faint zipping sound, far quieter than AAM enabled seek.

While WD is non-obtrusive load/unload, you might want to avoid it clicking every 5 seconds or so, which will happen if your operating system polls it every 10 second: I/O access => load, 5 second of idling => unload, 5 more seconds of idling, I/O access => load, repeat. Then it might get annoying in a very very quiet system... but I think there's other reasons why to avoid it.

What are they? Load/unload HDDs are rated for certain amount of load/unload cycles and my WD caught up with my 7K400 in just a few days. (Note: my 7K400 has been running for years, unload power saving set to maximum.) Unloading heads at just 5 seconds of idle is quite extreme when compared to 2+ minutes on 7K400.

One load cycle every 10 seconds means 8640 cycles per day. 7K400 is rated for 50000 cycles per lifetime (but it's probable it can handle more like 500000). Even if we assumed WD could handle 500000 cycles, it'd reach that number in just 60 days. Do you want the drive to run for the next 3 years? I seriously recommend you make sure HDD isn't polled every 10 seconds for some stupid reason.

For me, that stupid reason appears to be combination of NTFS file system and O&O defragmenter. If O&O is uninstalled or O&O process is killed from process management (shutting down the user interface is not enough), polling frequency is reduced significantly (several minutes, hours). Getting rid of NTFS, it's eliminated completely (with or without O&O).

Like with laptop HDDs, I recommend, make sure you don't unnecessarily wear out the drive prematurely. Also, doing this, you can ensure lower power consumption of the system if HDDs remain in power saving mode longer.

halcyon · Post by **halcyon** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 5:19 am

bystander wrote:Has anyone actually tried the 1TB WD GP? Is it really that quiet? How does it compare to the current WD5000AAAKS

I ordered 2. Got them on Friday. 1st installed ok and is roughly similar to 5000AAAKS noise/vibration -wise, maybe a tad more (I just can't perform an accurate comparison now, way too busy). This is using direct mounting currently (drive rails into a metal drive cage, no suspension).

The second one was dead out of the package. Drive is recognized in bios ok, head keeps on seeking and the drive is never available in any OS (in fact, XP tries to start up for ages and never manages when this dead drive is connected).

My GP drives are Made in Thailand. My SE16/WD5000 drives were made in Malaysia. Not that it necessarily makes any difference.

As noise/vibration stands, I'm fairly happy as it's at least not clearly worse than 5000 series, but like I said... haven't had time for a thorough evaluation.

cheers,
halcyon

Luminair · Post by **Luminair** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 6:30 am

This vibration thing from you two guys makes me scratch my head. How does the slower GP vibrate as much or more than an AAKS!

Last I heard, some say the vibration of the Samsung drives varies depending on the drive, so it could be a quality issue... I wonder if that goes for your GPs as well.

Telstar · Post by **Telstar** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 7:30 am

I still haven't got mines. I early hope to not have a DOA.

andyb · Post by **andyb** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 7:36 am

I hope this is the start of a price war.

http://www.ebuyer.com/product/129306

The sHitachi 1TB drive has dropped in price to just Â£184 inc VAT (Â£156.25 before tax). Not long ago it was selling for Â£199 before VAT (Â£224 inc VAT).

Andy

andyb · Post by **andyb** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:56 pm

http://www.ebuyer.com/product/129306

"Hitachi Deskstar 1TB SATAII 7200rpm 32MB Cache - OEM

Sorry, this product is now discontinued and is no longer available for sale on the Ebuyer.com website.
View other products from the "Hard Drives" category
View other products from the "3.5" SATA Drives" subcategory
Please visit our homepage to search for an alternative."

This is b*llshit, they had 240+ in stock earlier, they might have jumped the gun on a pricedrop, or it might have been an error, but the above quote is steaming and smells like shit to me

Andy

nutball · Post by **nutball** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 5:25 am

Well whatever happened with ebuyer, Dabs took the bait.

Hitachi at Â£189 inc and WD at Â£182 inc.

lobuni · Post by **lobuni** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:27 am

Are 5400rpm 2.5'' HDDs quieter than 3.5'' 5400rpm HDDs?
Can't you disable the Caviar GP-s load/unloads?

gb115b · Post by **gb115b** » Sun Oct 21, 2007 1:01 am

ok, i've bitten the bullet...

i'm discarding the Hitachi as an option

but have preordered a Samsung f1 1TB (can't seem to get it available in the UK as yet?)

and ordered 1 WD 1TB

will let you know some comparisons as soon as i get them...

haven't got any fancy equipment, but my ears are pretty sharp...

unless Mike beats me too it....then i won't bother...

SileX · Post by **SileX** » Sun Oct 21, 2007 8:00 am

gb115b wrote:ok, i've bitten the bullet...
i'm discarding the Hitachi as an option
but have preordered a Samsung f1 1TB (can't seem to get it available in the UK as yet?)
and ordered 1 WD 1TB
will let you know some comparisons as soon as i get them...
haven't got any fancy equipment, but my ears are pretty sharp...
unless Mike beats me too it....then i won't bother...

Thanks. Just cannot wait.

STOP THE PRESS. On the other hand, the BRAND NEW Samsung F1 Series - 1Tb, 32mb cache, sata2 hdd - HD103UJ is seling RIGHT NOW here (SIX UNITS):

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Samsung-1Tb-F1-H ... dZViewItem

HURRY! - SALE ENDS TOMORROW!

quest_for_silence · Post by **quest_for_silence** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:09 am

whiic wrote:quest_for_silence: "Well, according to me WD states has this meaning: that the drive's spin speed is dynamically adjusted on the fly, while working, time by time, spinning from a minimum speed of 5400rpm, and up to a maximum speed of 7200rpm."

I think that was pretty much proven not to be the case. SR benchmarks are all what could be expected for a drive constantly spinning at 5400rpm.

Right after your words, as they sounded "good" to me, I was being convinced that my first (quoted) interpretation was plainly wrong, and still so I mean.

But to be fair, I've asked directly to WD what their words mean, and the following quoted below is their official answer to me: feel free to take your own conviction about Western Digital's truthfulness and reliability.

Please take note (while they claim to answer to customers within one business day) that, for such a simple question, they have taken 18 (eighteen!) days (after even escalating it) to answer me: what this detail could mean? I'm a bit worried.

Again, please forgive me for my not so good english.

Below is a response to your recent question. If the response provided does not answer your question, you can either reply to this message or go to the link below.

We will assume your issue has been resolved if we do not hear from you within 96 hours.

Thank you for allowing us to be of service to you.

To reply to this message, first click your email "Reply" button. You must INSERT YOUR TEXT BETWEEN the lines indicated below.

[===> Please enter your reply below this line <===]

[===> Please enter your reply above this line <===]

Subject
WD Caviar GP 1 TB SATA Hard Drives (WD10EACS) spin speed

Discussion Thread
Response (James W.) 10/20/2007 06:06 AM
The drive is 7200 RPM, it always spins at that speed.

Customer (Luca Ricci) 10/02/2007 11:00 AM
Dear Sirs,

as I'm currently plan to purchase some new 1TB drives, could you kindly and clearly point me out which is the actual and current spin speed of the very new WD Caviar GP 1 TB SATA Hard Drives (WD10EACS)? Is it 5400rpm? Is it 7200rpm? Is it dynamically adjusted while working? Are there several model, each with a different spin speed? If so how to recognize the different rotational speed of them?

Please take note to not tell me to check the relative product page at: http://www.wdc.com/en/products/Products.asp?DriveID=336 as I've already checked it, and I'm now asking you this question as there it's not clearly stated at which speed the drive will spin around.

I'm looking forward to your answer, meanwhile thanks in advance for your toughtfulness.

Luca

SileX · Post by **SileX** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:26 am

quest_for_silence wrote: The drive is 7200 RPM, it always spins at that speed.

That is simply not true and frontally contradicts WD GreenPower papers as well as recent benchmarks. What are they playing at?

Luminair · Post by **Luminair** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 2:30 pm

SileX wrote:
quest_for_silence wrote: The drive is 7200 RPM, it always spins at that speed.
That is simply not true and frontally contradicts WD GreenPower papers as well as recent benchmarks. What are they playing at?

Clearly WD email support is staffed with retards. That doesn't make the drive bad though

alva · Post by **alva** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:15 pm

Perhaps slightly off-topic (because they're only up to 500GB on release) but Hitachi has some new ultra-low power (3-5W at idle) drives expected in decent volumes fourth quarter this year:

[first post, so can't post URLs]
technologynewsdaily dot com /node/8321

I don't think any review sites have their hands on these yet, so it's hard to say how quiet they are. Not sure how useful phrases like, "2.6/2.8 Bels typical idle acoustics" are. Does that compare well across manufacturers?

-Shane

SileX · Post by **SileX** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:30 am

alva,

Welcome and thanks!

Here it is. This thing is getting interesting. What I wonder is what about the 1 TB model?

http://www.technologynewsdaily.com/node/8321

Published Mon, 2007-10-22 20:58 Computers/Servers

Hitachi Global Storage Technologies (Hitachi GST) has delivered the worldâ€™s most energy efficient desktop hard disk drive (HDD) â€“ the Deskstarâ„¢ P7K500. Hitachi GST has implemented a set of power-saving technologies to reduce the P7K500â€™s active and idle power consumption by up to 40 percent over the previous generation. As a result, the P7K500 achieves best-of-breed power consumption on its one-disk model and significant power savings on its two-disk model, both with 7200 RPM performance and Serial-ATA interface. Hitachi GSTâ€™s new hard drive is designed for commercial and consumer PCs in capacities ranging from 250GB to 500GB*. The P7K500 is up to 59 percent more power efficient than comparable 250GB hard drives in its class, based on available specifications.

lor77 · Post by **lor77** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:26 am

Greetings to everyone.
Same thing here.Up to 500gb capacity.
http://www.storagereview.com/hitachi_an ... tar_p7k500

quest_for_silence · Post by **quest_for_silence** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:27 am

SileX wrote:
quest_for_silence wrote: The drive is 7200 RPM, it always spins at that speed.
That is simply not true and frontally contradicts WD GreenPower papers as well as recent benchmarks. What are they playing at?

Really I don't know: diligently I reported your objections to Western Digital customer support, please read what WD answers (very quickly, now):

Below is a response to your recent question. If the response provided does not answer your question, you can either reply to this message or go to the link below.

We will assume your issue has been resolved if we do not hear from you within 96 hours.

Thank you for allowing us to be of service to you.

To reply to this message, first click your email "Reply" button. You must INSERT YOUR TEXT BETWEEN the lines indicated below.

[===> Please enter your reply below this line <===]

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Subject
WD Caviar GP 1 TB SATA Hard Drives (WD10EACS) spin speed

Discussion Thread
Response (James W.) 10/23/2007 01:18 AM
The motors are 7200 RPM capable, but the heads support a platter movement of 5400 RPM also for when it is necessary for improved access and power saving.
Customer (Luca Ricci) 10/22/2007 10:58 AM
Dear mr. James W.,

first of all thanks a lot for your late answer.

Anyway, that seems simply not plainly true as it frontally contradicts the very same WD GreenPower whitepapers (as well as recent benchmarks as seen on www.storagereview.com): what are you playing at? Who's telling the truth, you or your colleagues which wrote the WD GreenPower papers?

Again, please forgive me for my not so good english, as it may cause some misunderstandings.

I'm looking forward to your answer, meanwhile thanks in advance for your toughtfulness.

May you kindly explain me what these last WD words (by fingers of mr. James W.) could ever mean?

Luca

lor77 · Post by **lor77** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:39 am

The motors are 7200 RPM capable, but the heads support a platter movement of 5400 RPM also for when it is necessary for improved access and power saving.

So basically i have a VW Golf that if i want it can run as a Ferrari.
LOL that was a serious understatement!!!

andyb · Post by **andyb** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 3:34 am

The motors are 7200 RPM capable, but the heads support a platter movement of 5400 RPM also for when it is necessary for improved access and power saving.

Most motors are capable of running at a "lower speed", and they were probably used because no one makes 5400 rpm 3.5" drive motors any more.

The bit that grabs my attention is the "the heads support a platter movement of 5400 RPM" This suggests that it doesnt support 7200 rpm AT ALL.

Or do they mean "but the heads support a platter movement of 5400 RPM also for when it is necessary" therefore meaning that like the platter motor, they are capable of working at 7200 rpm OR 5400 rpm.

This looks like WD are digging themselves a hole due to their pathetic support, and b*llshit marketing.

I still want proof that this drive spins faster than 5400 rpm EVER.

Andy