Which drives (and mobos) support Staggered Spin-up?

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__Miguel_
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Which drives (and mobos) support Staggered Spin-up?

Post by __Miguel_ » Tue Jan 20, 2009 3:27 am

Hi, guys.

I am currently on the planning stages of a small (mini-ITX small), low-power (well, as low you can go with 4 3.5'' drives... lol), high-capacity (4TB or more), low noise NAS.

Right now I am still considering my options, since when you start thinking about something like building an 8TB sub-8-liter cube (20x20x20cm or smaller, it really depends on the external casing, since the base structure is only ~17x17x17cm max) keeping all of SPCR's teachings present (HDD decoupling, low fan speeds, indirect sound paths, cushioning, etc.) AND still thinking "I'll manage to get this one to maket someday", there are plenty of things that seem to go the other way... :lol:

My biggest problem right now is the PSU (or lack thereof... :P). Better yet, the lack of amps on the 12V rail. To go this small, a Pico is a must, and there is no way in hell even the 120W version is able to cope with ~4x2A+mobo+CPU on the 12V rail while powering up. The Pico is 8A peak, which means the drives alone would make it collapse while booting up.

So I need Staggered Spin-Up for the HDDs. However, I'm lacking some information about this, since AFAIK SSUp is optional on the SATA spec. Also, SSUp support needs to be present on both the HDD and the southbridge/BIOS.

Which means, given the utter lack of documentation I have come across, I'm really :?: :?: :?: about which HDDs and mobos/chipsets support SSUp...

So far, I have managed to find out ICHxR (and probably the DH and DO derivatives) southbridges support SSUp, though I don't have the propper equipment to test if it's always available out of the box on every board, or if a proper BIOS is needed... NVIDIA and ATI chipsets are a question mark at this point...

On the motherboard side of things, I am currently talking with a manufacturer (for a couple of mini-ITX boards), which told me their products don't support SSUp out of the box, but it seems they are willing to check if it's possible with a BIOS update (nice!). If that flops, I'll need to talk with Intel (:lol: on them even replying to me for the DG45FC) or other more "obscure" manufacturers.

On the HDD side, OTOH, I'm completely stumped... Samsung specifically anounces their drives are SSUp-capable, but doesn't specify if the feature is always enabled; WD (the brand I'd like to use, because the new GP drives have very low power draw idling, and only <1.7A spinup current needed) doesn't talk about it on the main site, and the support pages refer to a "Controlled spinup via spinup command per ATA standard" feature, controlled by a jumper. However, I've been told that someone at WD specifically said WD retail drives do not support SSUp, meaning it's possible, but you might need either a specific firmware or low-level access to the drive (hdarm, I've read).

As of right now, Samsung and WD seem to be the only two manufacturers making low-noise (a.k.a. 5400rpm) drives, so I'd appreciate some input about this. Can anyone help me out?

Thanks in advance.

Cheers.

Miguel

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Post by andyb » Tue Jan 20, 2009 10:35 am

In an answer to your main questrion about motherboards and drives that support staggered spin-up.

Motherboards vary a lot, its mostly down to whether the chipset supports it, and whether the manufacturer has implemented it on the board. Most good motherboard will support it, but you are far less likely to find such support on Mini ITX boards.

Most if not all desktop HDD's have supported staggered spin up for several years.

On a slightly different note an 8A PSU will be fine with 4x 3.5" drives even if staggered spin up doesnt work, as many drives use <1A each (check though). This of course is only true if the rest of the system doesnt bring you too close, and also that the 8A you quoted doesnt also cover the 5v requirements. But you are right in persuing staggered spin up vs taking the risk.

I would also like to know how you would be fitting 4 desktop drives into a case thats a 20cm cube with the rest of a PC inside, and of course why you would bother. Is space that limited for you that a normal sized PC is impossible.?


Andy

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Post by __Miguel_ » Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:03 am

andyb wrote:Motherboards vary a lot, its mostly down to whether the chipset supports it, and whether the manufacturer has implemented it on the board. Most good motherboard will support it, but you are far less likely to find such support on Mini ITX boards.
Hence the question :P I really want to know which chipsets support Staggered Spin-up (preferrably individual motherboards), so I don't go out of my way to buy one and get a smack in my face with the lack of support :P

To be honest, I haven't seen any BIOS option about it, even in top-of-the-line boards like the P5B Deluxe and P5E Deluxe, which is rather odd, since I know for a fact the ICHxR southbridges support the function... :?
andyb wrote: Most if not all desktop HDD's have supported staggered spin up for several years.
Not true, if what the WD employee said to the PR of the mobo manufacturer I am talking to. I wish it was that easy, really.
andyb wrote:On a slightly different note an 8A PSU will be fine with 4x 3.5" drives even if staggered spin up doesnt work, as many drives use <1A each (check though). This of course is only true if the rest of the system doesnt bring you too close, and also that the 8A you quoted doesnt also cover the 5v requirements. But you are right in persuing staggered spin up vs taking the risk.
I HAVE checked. Sadly, the GP drives draw as much as ~1.7A on the 12V rail each at startup; the EcoGreen Samsungs up that value to 2A, which is NOT good, since the 12V rail is also needed for the CPU (shouldn't be that much, <8W idling, but I really don't want to go over the peak rating at each boot... Not good for any component). 5V seems fine, 8A on the 12V rail still allows for some latitude on the 5V rail.
andyb wrote: I would also like to know how you would be fitting 4 desktop drives into a case thats a 20cm cube with the rest of a PC inside, and of course why you would bother. Is space that limited for you that a normal sized PC is impossible.?
Well, the biggest size you have to deal with in 3.5'' drives is 14,6cm, the smallest being 2,55cm. So you can either go horizontal or vertical (width: 10,16cm), and still have plenty of space for a system fan right above the fanless CPU heatsink. You could still probably fit a slimline ODD, but that's not really needed for a NAS. Also, if you mount everything correctly, there is also room to use the PCI/PCIe slot (low profile only, probably, and since there is a Pico powering the thing, no GPUs allowed). Though I find it hard to imagine what could be put there. Probably a 2-port SATA controller, if you want to create a low-priced version of the thing.

And before you ask, the PicoPSU is the size of a 20-pin power connector, and protrudes about 3cm above it. The really difficult thing is creating the beast, not the space :D

Oh, and about the size: I'm fed up with insanely large cases. I've built a 30x30x30cm case for a server a few years ago (uATX-based, and the CPU is a Pentium D 805, so I had to install a HUGE heatsink to go almost fanless), and though it's nice, it's way too big. Too much wasted space, and it's still loud.

Besides, it's always nice to be able to take your NAS with you if you need to go anywhere... lol

Cheers.

Miguel

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Post by andyb » Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:08 pm

Hence the question Razz I really want to know which chipsets support Staggered Spin-up (preferrably individual motherboards), so I don't go out of my way to buy one and get a smack in my face with the lack of support Razz
I seem to remember that the nForce 3 chipset supports it, and that really quite old - but I might not be correct.
To be honest, I haven't seen any BIOS option about it, even in top-of-the-line boards like the P5B Deluxe and P5E Deluxe, which is rather odd, since I know for a fact the ICHxR southbridges support the function... Confused
Its not usually a BIOS on/off option, it either supports it or does not, but can be enabled/disabled per drive if the drive supports it.
Not true, if what the WD employee said to the PR of the mobo manufacturer I am talking to. I wish it was that easy, really.
Again, I am really speaking from memory, rather than knowlege, but the Samsung P120 range supports it - again check this.

I can with certainty tell you that the HD103UJ 1TB Samsung F1 drives support it, and I would expect that the rest of the range also does, and all future Samsung desktop drives also will.
I HAVE checked. Sadly, the GP drives draw as much as ~1.7A on the 12V rail each at startup; the EcoGreen Samsungs up that value to 2A, which is NOT good, since the 12V rail is also needed for the CPU (shouldn't be that much, <8W idling, but I really don't want to go over the peak rating at each boot... Not good for any component). 5V seems fine, 8A on the 12V rail still allows for some latitude on the 5V rail.
Thats quite a lot more than I was expecting, I picked up the nearest 6 drives and checked them out, the highest was 1360mA, most wer 960mA, and some of the single platter seagates were ~500mA.

Good luck with a build of that size, I expect to see pictures when your done.


Andy

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Post by __Miguel_ » Tue Jan 20, 2009 1:26 pm

andyb wrote:I seem to remember that the nForce 3 chipset supports it, and that really quite old - but I might not be correct.
That actually is a good sign. If the NF3 already supported the feature, then there is a really good chance the 8000 and 9000 series also support it. Finally, some good news!
andyb wrote:Its not usually a BIOS on/off option, it either supports it or does not, but can be enabled/disabled per drive if the drive supports it.
Also a good news. However, I feel like at least with some controllers (not sure on the integrated ones), you have the option to turn it off or on at the controller level (so you don't end up with a degraded array because of drive timeouts... lol). I was hoping for that, but if it means I'll get it automatically, even better.

I can say the ICH7 (not "-R") doesn't support it, or at least ASRock didn't implement it on their 1st-gen 945G-based uATX boards. The only system where I have two drives I know SSUp is available (two Samsung 321KJ) doesn't allow SSUp, both drives spin up at the same time (literally, it seems Stereo sound... lol)
andyb wrote: Again, I am really speaking from memory, rather than knowlege, but the Samsung P120 range supports it - again check this.

I can with certainty tell you that the HD103UJ 1TB Samsung F1 drives support it, and I would expect that the rest of the range also does, and all future Samsung desktop drives also will.
Just about every Samsung manufactured over the last few years has it. You've got the highlight on big letters all over the place on the Samsung site and tech data. The problem is with the WD drives (which draw much less power than Samsung ones, and that's why I wanted to use them), but I have no problem to go with F1s or F2s if I get through the SSUp issue.
andyb wrote: Thats quite a lot more than I was expecting, I picked up the nearest 6 drives and checked them out, the highest was 1360mA, most wer 960mA, and some of the single platter seagates were ~500mA.
Power consumption on HDD stickers only refers to worst-case load conditions. I don't know any manufacturer who also tells you peak (a.k.a. spinup) power draw on the sticker. This info must come either from the drive manual or the manufacturer's website, which is where I got my data for the WD and Samsung 1TB drives (also, the new 1.5TB F2s).
andyb wrote:Good luck with a build of that size, I expect to see pictures when your done.
I somehow knew you might be interested :) I sure hope everything goes the way I want it.

Oh, btw. After my last post, I did some math, and I found out I could probably fit at least another 3.5'' drive (possibly two, but that would need some rearranging on the HDD positions) to the cube without too much hassle.

With just one more, I could still have ~6cm total clearance between the board and the HDDs (about 2,5cm "real", because of the Pico, the heatsink and the fan, unless I use a motherboard with the PSU connector on the edge). Two more would make it a very tight fit, and I'd need to measure everything two more times... lol And besides, it's difficult to find mini-ITX mobos with more than 4 internal SATA ports...

This is going to be a long-term project for sure. I have the basic idea in my head, and I know how I want everything to be. But there are still some things I have to iron out before I commit to it. Like knowing I'll be ok on the power department (read: SSUp working) and choosing the outside of the box. Internally it's easy, strong cylindrical metal strips should do the trick. Externally, I want something rubbery (soundproofing), easilly constructible (like one mold for the 12 side connectors, and only a couple more for the rest), and I still haven't found where to do it, nor the materials.

If everything goes accordingly, and I actually manage to build the thing (I've thought about similar projects a few times now, but there was always something that prevented me from doing it... :?

Also, if there are manufacturers willing to lend me a hand with endorsments, I might finish faster and make the thing available for everyone else. After all, I want it to be cheap, and the whole idea is to make it marketable...

But I digress (as usual... :roll:). If anyone else has any more info, feel free to pitch in. I'll do the same, too.

Cheers.

Miguel

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Post by jessekopelman » Tue Jan 20, 2009 1:31 pm

andyb wrote: Thats quite a lot more than I was expecting, I picked up the nearest 6 drives and checked them out, the highest was 1360mA, most wer 960mA, and some of the single platter seagates were ~500mA.
Andy
Is that instantaneous, though? My understanding was that HDD had a very high instantaneous draw (like ~2A) right at startup and then quickly drop down to whatever.

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Post by __Miguel_ » Tue Jan 20, 2009 1:39 pm

jessekopelman wrote:Is that instantaneous, though? My understanding was that HDD had a very high instantaneous draw (like ~2A) right at startup and then quickly drop down to whatever.
Yes, ~2A consumptions are at peak, meaning on those couple of seconds while the drive is powering up. That's when the motors need to work harder (you know Physics, it's "cheaper" to keep something running than to make it run in the first place - in terms of instantaneous power consumption, of course).

As I said, the values usually found on HDD stickers are typical power draws, or max (load) power draws. Those are the normal ones. I'm worried about the transient (power up) ones, since a regular PSU has at least 12~16A on the 12V rail, but not the PicoPSU, which is much smaller and with less capacity.

Cheers.

Miguel

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Post by Nick Geraedts » Tue Jan 20, 2009 2:35 pm

I can't speak for any other setups, but WD GP drives do support staggered spinup when paired with a controller that supports it as well (all 3ware cards do, IIRC). All you need to do is jumper the proper pins on the back of the drive.

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Post by jessekopelman » Tue Jan 20, 2009 2:53 pm

__Miguel_ wrote:
jessekopelman wrote:Is that instantaneous, though? My understanding was that HDD had a very high instantaneous draw (like ~2A) right at startup and then quickly drop down to whatever.
Yes, ~2A consumptions are at peak, meaning on those couple of seconds while the drive is powering up. That's when the motors need to work harder (you know Physics, it's "cheaper" to keep something running than to make it run in the first place - in terms of instantaneous power consumption, of course).

As I said, the values usually found on HDD stickers are typical power draws, or max (load) power draws. Those are the normal ones. I'm worried about the transient (power up) ones, since a regular PSU has at least 12~16A on the 12V rail, but not the PicoPSU, which is much smaller and with less capacity.

Cheers.

Miguel
Right. I was in agreement with you. That is why I was asking andyb if his measurements were instantaneous or averaged.

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Post by __Miguel_ » Tue Jan 20, 2009 3:30 pm

Nick Geraedts wrote:I can't speak for any other setups, but WD GP drives do support staggered spinup when paired with a controller that supports it as well (all 3ware cards do, IIRC). All you need to do is jumper the proper pins on the back of the drive.
Hmm, that confirms what I had seen on WD's support page, which is good.

The odd thing is, why would a WD employee say "retail drives don't have that feature"? Only reason I can think of it was the wrong employee... :P

Thank you for your input. Now for the "compatible controllers" part. Specifically, NVIDIA and Intel Southbridges on mini-ITX implementations. I know, I'm a bit a**l about things. Sorry :oops:

@jesse: :oops:, I thought you were asking because you were not sure about it. AFAIK, andyb just picked up a couple of drives he had lying around and read the power stats on the sticker (hence my reference to stickers). Sorry about that.

Again, thank you for your help, guys. Now let's see if I recieve good news on the motherboard manufacturer's part.

Oh, Nick. Just to be clear about this: you did try SSUp with your drives, right?

Cheers.

Miguel

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Post by andyb » Tue Jan 20, 2009 3:31 pm

That actually is a good sign. If the NF3 already supported the feature, then there is a really good chance the 8000 and 9000 series also support it. Finally, some good news!
Not unless you have found something I havent. I had a look around the net, but couldnt find a trace of the NF3 chipset supporting SSu. I then turned on my backup server (NF3 chipset), and all 4 SATA drives span up at the same time.
Right. I was in agreement with you. That is why I was asking andyb if his measurements were instantaneous or averaged.
I didnt measure anything, I just read the labels on the drives.


Andy

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Post by __Miguel_ » Tue Jan 20, 2009 3:45 pm

andyb wrote:Not unless you have found something I havent. I had a look around the net, but couldnt find a trace of the NF3 chipset supporting SSu. I then turned on my backup server (NF3 chipset), and all 4 SATA drives span up at the same time.
#$%&!

Oh, well, another bump on the road. Let's see if good news come from the manufacturer.

Btw, those SATA drives are in AHCI mode? AFAIK, SSUp requires at least AHCI...

Thanks again.

Cheers.

Miguel

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Post by Nick Geraedts » Wed Jan 21, 2009 10:52 am

__Miguel_ wrote:Oh, Nick. Just to be clear about this: you did try SSUp with your drives, right?
All of my drives have the jumpers for staggered spinup enabled. I don't think the drives connected to the ICH9R on my motherboard are starting up separately, but the other 8 storage drives connected to the 3ware controller are definitely staggering their spinup (you can hear the individual initial whirring sound once a second during boot). I can't remember which of the pins you have to jumper though. You'll likely need to strip some old dead motherboards or hard drives for the actual jumpers (I did).

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Post by __Miguel_ » Wed Jan 21, 2009 3:07 pm

Nick Geraedts wrote:I don't think the drives connected to the ICH9R on my motherboard are starting up separately
Not good for what I want. That board doesn't have SSUp coded into the BIOS. Which means most, if not all, consumer-grade motherboards lack it :? If you happen to power-cycle that server say... yesterday (kidding :lol:), would you mind confirming that about the ICH9R?

Definetely, not good. Let's see if an NVIDIA chipset has better chances.
Nick Geraedts wrote:I can't remember which of the pins you have to jumper though.
That's easy. Second pair from the left when you have the back of the drive facing you (and the SATA connector on the left). That I knew, but after that "official" WD statement, I got confused about it. Now I know, which puts my mind somewhat at ease.
Nick Geraedts wrote:You'll likely need to strip some old dead motherboards or hard drives for the actual jumpers (I did).
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Hopefully not, I only want 4 drives, and I do have a few extra jumpers available (oddly enough, every single Samsung drive I've bought over the last couple of years comes with one jumper in a bag... go figure...).

So, only one thing missing. I'm keeping my fingers crossed, wish me luck for the mobo part.

Cheers.

Miguel

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Post by Nick Geraedts » Thu Jan 22, 2009 10:55 am

__Miguel_ wrote:Definetely, not good. Let's see if an NVIDIA chipset has better chances.
From what I've read, the ICH9R does support SSU when set to ACHI mode, but I'm just not sure if it's actually working or not (it's hard to tell from outside the case if it's two drives spinning up initially or three). You'd need to find someone with a few drives who'd be willing to experiment for you.

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Post by __Miguel_ » Thu Jan 22, 2009 11:35 am

Nick Geraedts wrote:From what I've read, the ICH9R does support SSU when set to ACHI mode,
Well, I did know pretty much every ICHxR (starting with "7", at least) supports SSUp, but I did have the impression that the function needs BIOS support as well, which is more complicated. I assume most motherboard manufacturers would assume "heh, this is a server-oriented feature, skip it, regular consumers won't need it, and it saves a couple of hours of coding".
Nick Geraedts wrote: but I'm just not sure if it's actually working or not (it's hard to tell from outside the case if it's two drives spinning up initially or three).
Well, when you have more than 5 drives spinning up, you'd be hard-pressed to actually manage to figure out how many are spinning up at a given time... :P

I won't ask you to open up your case just for this (not even sure if you control it directly, or if it's a production server), so I'll just wait for anyone with less drives and an ICHxR storage controller to give me a hand with this.

Again, thank you. You have been a great help so far.

Cheers.

Miguel

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Post by __Miguel_ » Tue Jan 27, 2009 2:56 pm

Hi again, guys.

Just a little bump to see if anyone has new info on this one.

Also, I have just read on the WD abnormal load/unload cycle issue thread here on SPCR that the new RE2 GP firmware enables some sort of "low power spinup". Can anyone give me the power figures for that one? If they are low enough, this whole thread could become a moot point :P

The way I'm thinking is: the Pico can handle sub-60'' 8A max on the 12V rail. So, if the ~1.7A on the 12V rail could drop to, say, 1.5A max, 4 drives powering up would still allow for 24W power to the motherboard.

With tweaking, WHOLE systems can idle at ~25W (mobo+CPU+RAM+2.5'' HDD, on a PicoPSU, AND from the wall), which means that might just work... Right? Or am I just seing what I want to see?

Cheers.

Miguel

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Post by the_beast » Fri Feb 06, 2009 9:17 am

__Miguel_ wrote: The way I'm thinking is: the Pico can handle sub-60'' 8A max on the 12V rail. So, if the ~1.7A on the 12V rail could drop to, say, 1.5A max, 4 drives powering up would still allow for 24W power to the motherboard.

With tweaking, WHOLE systems can idle at ~25W (mobo+CPU+RAM+2.5'' HDD, on a PicoPSU, AND from the wall), which means that might just work... Right? Or am I just seing what I want to see?
The main problem I can see is actually not the pico psu at all, it's the brick powering it. I have yet to see a brick rated above 8.5A@12V, which works out at just over 100W (and these 8.5A units have a fan). Even though the pico can do 120W output, if you only put 100W in that is all you can ever get out! If your drives pull 6A I doubt you will run everything else (cpu, mobo, ram, 5V drive rails, 2.5" hdd, psu inefficiency, cooling fans) on the 2.5A left. Remember the 2.5" hdd & fans will also have higher spin-up current than their steady-state ratings.

I would be tempted to rig up a 90W PicoPSU (with maybe a fanless 80W power brick) to run everything except the 12V drive rails, with a second 80W power brick to run the 12V to the storage drives. You could rig up a relay to the 12V pico rail to turn on the drive supply only when the motherboard is powered up. You could even run some of the drives completely off the main (Pico) power brick. This would allow you to run even more drives and stay within the power supply spec. Running at or close to spec would be fine for a secondary, low importance machine, but I wouldn't recommend it for a server. I wouldn't trust my data to a machine that is pushing it's limits.

Hope this helps - not the most elegant solution, but cheaper & smaller than having to resort to a more powerful internal psu. I'm sure you have made worse sacrifices to keep things quiet!

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Post by __Miguel_ » Fri Feb 06, 2009 10:07 am

the_beast wrote:I have yet to see a brick rated above 8.5A@12V, which works out at just over 100W (and these 8.5A units have a fan).
Well, I've seen 9A@12V bricks, though addmitedly they ARE rare. And you can also hack an XBox360 brick, those seem to be able to go as high as 200W@12V output, which is nice :)

And, as someone else pointed out in another forum, it seems the Pico can handle much more than the rated 8A on the 12V rail, since it's only passing current, not actually converting anything... Not sure I'd like to actually test that one, but...

Or I might just ditch the regular Pico, and go for a WI version (more choice on bricks... hehehe)
the_beast wrote:Remember the 2.5" hdd & fans will also have higher spin-up current than their steady-state ratings.
Yes, I know, but that's only on the 12V line...
the_beast wrote:I would be tempted to rig up a 90W PicoPSU (with maybe a fanless 80W power brick) to run everything except the 12V drive rails, with a second 80W power brick to run the 12V to the storage drives. You could rig up a relay to the 12V pico rail to turn on the drive supply only when the motherboard is powered up.
That is... interesting. Never thought of that, really. However, I don't think I would be able to afford that one (on more ways than one). First up, just getting my hands on one Pico+brick here in Portugal would cost me at least €120, which is insanely high (more expensive than a 1TB F1, for one...); then I'd need to duplicate the brick area and power outlets used... Not very efficient or funny... And THEN I'd still need to somehow manage to squeeze a lot of wires into the case, which would not be good for airflow...

Also, on a little sidenote, I'm actually trying to make a prototype a company/case manufacturer would want to use for the rest of you. So costs MUST be kept in check, and anything added will propagate throughout the build...
the_beast wrote:Hope this helps - not the most elegant solution, but cheaper & smaller than having to resort to a more powerful internal psu.
Not exactly true. A hacked regular PSU would be exponentially cheaper, actually... lol Though it would be a MAJOR pain to fit, AND to keep cold... However... hmmm :twisted:

Also, maybe kicking the PSU up a notch (PicoPSU 150W - brand new model - or the 200W VIA-friendly models, also from mini-box) could be a more "user-friendly" approach - though the same brick problem persists. I need to check on that XBox brick...

Keep in mind, though, that this is only a problem IF I can't get SSUp to work. If it works, peak power draw will ALWAYS be in check, and within the 6A limit. Probably 5A peak, at most, 3A . The HDDs (new "D" series WD GP) have very low power needs, around 5W idling, and like 8-10W pushing it, so that's about 3.5A (and WHS is unlikely to use them all at the same time anyway...).
the_beast wrote:I'm sure you have made worse sacrifices to keep things quiet!
Actually, this is my first "I want it to be as silent as possible" build. My regular gaming rig has a Nox Urano 600W PSU, a Scythe Ninja (cooled by the PSU... hehehe), a 4870 PCS+ (stock cooling, only tweaked not to sound like a jet plane, or to give me headaches because of the whine it makes below 40% fan speed) and a non-suspended Samsung 321KJ. So you see, I'm not very used to make compromises on sound...

Btw, I do have very good hearing (I can hear things farther away than anyone I know, and I was actually able to distinguish some sounds coming from inside a (closed) busy coffe shop about 30m away on a quiet Summer night - with a fountain spashing 5m away from me), but I AM capable of sleeping in the same room as that machine I just told you about.

I guess I have very capable filters on my ears... :lol:

But I digress.

I have actually talked (chatted with) an Intel support guy (I don't know, probably in India?) about SSUp support on both the DG45FC and DQ45EK boards. He couldn't answer me, so the subject escalated, and sometime next week I should be able to know if any of these boards can handle the feature.

In the meanwhile, I'll probably check if my 945G-based board (ASRock 945G-DVI) can handle it. I have three SATA disks available ATM, at least two of them SSUp-compatible (Samsung), and since I know the ICH7 does support SSUp, I might just as well check if that's a feature readilly available on Intel's standard BIOS code (I don't think ASRock would change that, they don't tweak BIOSes too much).

Cheers.

Miguel

[EDIT]Yay, the 200W XBox 360 brick IS available in Portugal! AND, it is CHEAPER than the regular 120W bricks, especially if you order them from the UK or Germany. Sweet!

Now, anyone knows of an XBox 360 brick to 12V adapter? :lol: (I know, I know, I'll have to chop the end, solder some wires together - the thing has three 12V wires... sheesh - and then put a terminal at the end. Nice way to practice soldering, though :P) [/QUOTE]

the_beast
Posts: 37
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Post by the_beast » Sat Feb 07, 2009 4:04 am

I wasn't aware the 360 psus were 12v - that makes things much easier. Although they are pretty big! Much more elegant than 2 bricks though, and probably cheaper than 2 smaller bricks. The price you quote for the pico seems very high though - I can get get a 90W pico for about £30 in the UK without a psu brick, so I assume you should be able to get one for a similar price in Portugal. You don't need to get the pico brick with it - tft monitor psu bricks or similar will work fine (or the xbox psu you mentioned). This should keep cots down nicely.

One more thing - don't go for the WI picos - these definately won't be able to run your 3.5" drives. All the WI picos have very low 12v rails as they have to generate the stable 12v output. I would check with mini-box (the guys who make the picos) to see if the 12v pass-through with a high wattage power brick would be a problem. For spin up I would imagine this would be fine though.

Also, although this is not so important now as you can get a more powerful power brick, remember that although the extra startup current for fans/2.5" hdd is on the 5v line, the power still comes from the 12v power brick. If you go with anything lower than the xbox psu I think the brick will be your limiting factor, not the pico. That was why I mentioned it.

I am intrigued by your project, and interested to see the results. If I didn't already have s series of server-type projects on the go I would build something similar myself!

__Miguel_
Posts: 140
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 7:54 am
Location: Braga, Portugal

Post by __Miguel_ » Sat Feb 07, 2009 6:44 am

the_beast wrote:I wasn't aware the 360 psus were 12v - that makes things much easier. Although they are pretty big!
I didn't know that, either. I was thrilled when I was told about it, because that means I won't have to scavenge for the impossible-to-find Dell 200W brick. It will have a fan, though, but that's pretty much granted on anything bigger than 90W... I just hope it's not a screamer (hopefully the fan will only start in high load scenarios...

Btw, the 200W XBox 360 brick is rated 16.5A on the 12V rail :twisted:, and it also supplies +5VSB (odd). A simple hack should do the trick, the pinout is widely known. Red and Black wires, a "cube", shrink wrap, a connector, and voilá!
the_beast wrote:Much more elegant than 2 bricks though, and probably cheaper than 2 smaller bricks.[/QUTOE]
Less than €45, which IS cheap. Most high-power (always sub-8A, though) 12V bricks I can find cost more than €50, so that's technically a steal :)

Oh, yeah, and if I decide to go with two PSUs, I STILL only need one brick... hehe
the_beast wrote:The price you quote for the pico seems very high though - I can get get a 90W pico for about £30 in the UK without a psu brick, so I assume you should be able to get one for a similar price in Portugal.
Yeah, right. Dream on. You can only get the Pico from three places here in Portugal, as well as 8A+ bricks: Germany, UK and US. From the US you end up with a $80+ S&H fee (more than what the Pico and brick cost), AND you'll still have to pay import tax when it gets here.

UK and Germany charge €30 at the very least for S&H, but then you get hit with a 20% smack in the head because of VAT. Not to mention the difference you pay for the exchange rate (£30 is not €30, remember?). Not the least bit funny.

Oh, yes, there is an on-line store which sells the stuff here in Portugal. They get them from the UK, so you get where I'm getting at, right?
the_beast wrote:You don't need to get the pico brick with it - tft monitor psu bricks or similar will work fine (or the xbox psu you mentioned). This should keep cots down nicely.
NOW I can stop worrying about the brick. I can get a decent one right here. The problem still lies with the preposterously large S&H + VAT smacks I get hit with... I'll probably have to ask a friend of my parents to try and see if he can get me one of the bloody things when he goes abroad (he's retired now, let's just hope he can still fly as often as he did - he worked for an airline... hehehe).
the_beast wrote:One more thing - don't go for the WI picos - these definately won't be able to run your 3.5" drives. All the WI picos have very low 12v rails as they have to generate the stable 12v output.
Hmm, I did check the manuals of the WI models. They do need to be de-rated by 20%, but that's only with 19V+ input voltages. Still, good point.
the_beast wrote:I would check with mini-box (the guys who make the picos) to see if the 12v pass-through with a high wattage power brick would be a problem. For spin up I would imagine this would be fine though.
As I said, I don't really want to test that one. I'll probably go for the new 150W PicoPSU (10A peak, 8A nominal on the 12V rail) or the PW-200 (13.5A peak, 10A nominal on the 12V rail), which will hopefully grant me some peace of mind
the_beast wrote:Also, although this is not so important now as you can get a more powerful power brick, remember that although the extra startup current for fans/2.5" hdd is on the 5v line, the power still comes from the 12v power brick. If you go with anything lower than the xbox psu I think the brick will be your limiting factor, not the pico. That was why I mentioned it.
Yes, I know, and I agree anything less than the XBOX 360 brick will suck big time for such a big endeavour. Thanks for the reminder. Thankfully, though, 1A@12V still equals 2.4A@5V, and [email protected], so that gives me much more breathing room... hehehe
the_beast wrote:I am intrigued by your project, and interested to see the results. If I didn't already have s series of server-type projects on the go I would build something similar myself!
Well, financing it will be the main problem. You see, I still need "upper management" funding (read: parents), since trainee lawyers in Portugal seldom get paid for their work (especially now). So you get where I'm pointing at, right?

I reckon that, not counting the money necessary to build the enclosure itself, and even waiting for prices on the HDDs to drop (I REALLY want the WD20EADSs, what sounds just right for this project, right?), the drives themselves will add up to at least €800 (WHEN they get to the €200/drive point, of course, which will only happen when they cost like $200 in the US). If I don't end up with an extra drive, of course :roll: :P

And THEN I'll need to get a ~€150 mini-ITX board (not really that much choice in price ranges, the only ones available are the D945GCLF(2), for €65 and €90, which only have two SATA ports, and the DG45FC/GQ45EK, for €150; Zotac and the great 8200 and 9300 are not available in Portugal, despite me already talking with someone there, which told me they're "working on it"), at least €80 for the Pico, €50 for the brick, and €80 for the CPU (E5200, you can't really go lower than this, or else power draw will skyrocket; IF I get my hands on an AMD board, which are usually cheaper, then the CPU will also be cheaper, but not dirt-cheap as the sub-$30 BE-series Newegg sells - more like €55).

So, yeah, I don't really want to do the math on that one... It's a long term project, though, so...

Thanks for your input.

Cheers.

Miguel

the_beast
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Post by the_beast » Sat Feb 07, 2009 7:02 am

Try linitx.com (in the UK) for the Pico. The 120W version (they don't list the 150W yet, but it is brand new so not that surprising) is just under £30 inc vat, the shipping to Portugal adds around £10 via the cheapest method they offer (I checked it with a Portuguese address). With the current exchange rate 1 euro is almost £1. Even with exchange rates and any fees, it should cost less than 45euro. I expect eBay would also offer similar prices shipped to Portugal. I am not recommending LinITX by the way - I have never even bought anything from them, athough I do know people who have. They were just the first place I tried that had the Pico at a reasonable price and would tell me the shipping cost without having to register.

Remember if you buy something from the EU you can't be charged VAT or other import duties, so that will be all you will pay. This is different if you buy from the US or other non-EU country.

As for having to find funds - tell me about it! I even have all the parts but the cases for both my server projects, but til I can scrap together the last few pounds I am stuck with just a pile of useless bits...

Hope this helps.

__Miguel_
Posts: 140
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 7:54 am
Location: Braga, Portugal

Post by __Miguel_ » Sat Feb 07, 2009 7:27 am

the_beast wrote:Try linitx.com (in the UK) for the Pico.
Hmmm, I didn't know about that one. I'll check that out. Thanks!

[EDIT]Hmm, €43,71 for a 120W Pico, all included... Nice![/EDIT]
the_beast wrote: With the current exchange rate 1 euro is almost £1. Even with exchange rates and any fees, it should cost less than 45euro.
What? When did that happen? Oh, right, I forgot right about when the US$ increased, the UK fell on behalf of the bloody economic downturn. So this is actually the right time for me to get something from them... hehehe
the_beast wrote:Remember if you buy something from the EU you can't be charged VAT or other import duties, so that will be all you will pay. This is different if you buy from the US or other non-EU country.
Actually, it's the other way around. You can't be charged for import duties in the EU, but you still HAVE to pay VAT. You can only choose where you want to pay it, and even then only if you're a company (though the UK has a smaller VAT anyways, so...). Buying something from Europe abroad reverses this: no VAT, but you probably need to pay customs.

So, sadly, VAT is not optional. Still, 15% is much better than the usual 20% I get on other places. Nice!
the_beast wrote:til I can scrap together the last few pounds I am stuck with just a pile of useless bits...
Well, not exactly useless. If you're like me, and you probably are, you can go ahead and start building the thing.

Though, if you are ANYTHING like me, when you finally get the money you need, you will go "Heh, it's working already, I can't be bothered to take the whole thing down and build it again. Sod it, it stays out of the box. Now, what shall I do next...?" And repeat... :lol: :lol: Am I close? :P

The great thing is, is I actually have the project perfectly lined up (and know exactly how much I'm going to spend - or if some "unexpected" costs appear, or even if I use the old "it's 2 times more than I actually need, and then say 'ok, I guess I can shed something out" trick :roll: :twisted:), the money is SO much easier to procure... :twisted:

Hey, they paid for me to become a lawyer, they knew where they were getting themselves into, right? ;)

Cheers.

Miguel

the_beast
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Post by the_beast » Sat Feb 07, 2009 7:54 am

Sorry - I meant you would not be subject to extra VAT on import, as you are paying the UK rate. I had thought you were under the impression you would be hit for VAT & import duties on the way in, as you would be for a US purchase. Should have taken more notice of your comment about training to be a lawyer - I would have realised you would know this...

Sadly, I haven't got all my bits set up out of the case. I live in a small flat with barely enough space for the finished server, let alone an array of components everywhere. I have to wait until I have everything ready, then wait til the girlfriend goes out for a couple of hours so I can put it all together and tidy up before all hell would break loose...

As for the other components you are looking at, what do you actually want the server to do? If it's just for storing files you could stick with the dual core atom, but if you want to do other things with it you are pretty much stuck with the much more expensive options.

__Miguel_
Posts: 140
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 7:54 am
Location: Braga, Portugal

Post by __Miguel_ » Sat Feb 07, 2009 8:29 am

the_beast wrote:Sorry - I meant you would not be subject to extra VAT on import, as you are paying the UK rate. I had thought you were under the impression you would be hit for VAT & import duties on the way in, as you would be for a US purchase. Should have taken more notice of your comment about training to be a lawyer - I would have realised you would know this...
Tax laws were never my thing, I admit, but I do remember as much, yes :P And, technically, anyone buying from an US-based manufacturer WILL pay for import duties. Second-hand buyers don't do it directly, of course, but you still end up paying them... Sad, but true.

I also seem to have lost something in translation, what you wanted to say was nothing like what I got... hehe.
the_beast wrote: I live in a small flat with barely enough space for the finished server, let alone an array of components everywhere.
Oh, right, I forgot most houses in big cities across the globe are too tiny to begin with. I guess I'm just too used to big single houses (villas, if my translation is correct) with more rooms than you need, and more space per room than you want... hehe
the_beast wrote:I have to wait until I have everything ready, then wait til the girlfriend goes out for a couple of hours so I can put it all together and tidy up before all hell would break loose...
That has to be stressfull... :lol: OMG, she's comming in in 15 minutes, and this thing is STILL a bloody mess! ARGH!

Priceless... hehehe
the_beast wrote:As for the other components you are looking at, what do you actually want the server to do? If it's just for storing files you could stick with the dual core atom, but if you want to do other things with it you are pretty much stuck with the much more expensive options.
The thing with Atom-based boards is 1) They don't have enough SATA ports, and it's actually a crime to use more than a single SATA port on the PCI bus (though that should be a crime, too).

Also, Atom-based boards are not that power-efficient, when compared with the ridiculously low power figures you see here from bigger systems.

As for the use, WHS with some extras.. Ideally, it should be able to supply at least three HD data feeds while managing downloads, and such. I have a D945GCLF, actually, and that doesn't seem to cut it (AND it only has a 100Mbps NIC...)

Cheers.

Miguel

the_beast
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Post by the_beast » Sat Feb 07, 2009 2:36 pm

__Miguel_ wrote:As for the use, WHS with some extras.. Ideally, it should be able to supply at least three HD data feeds while managing downloads, and such. I have a D945GCLF, actually, and that doesn't seem to cut it (AND it only has a 100Mbps NIC...)
That there is the problem - if you want your server to do anything but just serve files, especially if software raid is involved (not sure if you use it or not), having any other processes running will kill performance.

The 100Mbps network is the real killer though, meaning it will never do 3 HD feeds (although it might manage 2). I'm hopeful that the dual core atom board, with it's onboard gig ethernet, will fair better. You can add a hardware raid card, and I reckon you could max out a 1000Mbps connection fairly easily. I can hit 50MBps (40MBps average) on my Via and P3 based servers that have a single PCI bus running both the raid card and the network. They idle (excluding storage drives) at 18W (Via C3@800) and 30W (P3@500), although I hope to drop this further when I remove the system disc from the P3. Across the network I get faster sustained speeds than I get from my laptop's internal HDD.

Putting a SATA controller on the pci bus is not necessarily the worst thing in the world, especially if you have nothing else on there. It is a shame that the ICH7 doesn't support port multipliers though, as that would solve all the problems. Note that the onboard SATA ports are not on the pci bus (although I assume you know this, and it's another 'translation' thing :))

__Miguel_
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Location: Braga, Portugal

Post by __Miguel_ » Sat Feb 07, 2009 5:52 pm

the_beast wrote:That there is the problem - if you want your server to do anything but just serve files, especially if software raid is involved (not sure if you use it or not), having any other processes running will kill performance.
WHS does not support RAID, software or otherwise. It uses some kind of JBOD scheme (with the second partition on the system drive and all the other drives), load-balancing the data storage among the JBOD disks (and also duplicates the shares you specify using the same method), always leaving the system drive empty, only using the primary disk if there is no space available on the other drives..

The great thing is, data reads from the storage pool might come from the same physical drive, but the system drive (where all the writes end up, later a background service moves it to other drives) is independent.

So, technically, it IS possible to serve several data streams AND have the system drive free to other stuff (like managin uTorrent, or a Web Server), provided you limit yourself to the system partition as much as you can.
the_beast wrote:The 100Mbps network is the real killer though, meaning it will never do 3 HD feeds (although it might manage 2). I'm hopeful that the dual core atom board, with it's onboard gig ethernet, will fair better. You can add a hardware raid card, and I reckon you could max out a 1000Mbps connection fairly easily.
"fair"=fare, right? ;)

The thing is, a couple of SATA ports on the PCI bus will utterly fload the bus. And that's only if the Ethernet port isn't also on that bus (very common on low-end motherboards...), in which case max throughput could drop to around 40MBps from the drives attached to the controller... I don't really want to deal with that kind of stuff... A 2-port NAS is perfeclty capable with a PCI NIC, but when you go for more than 3 ports, you don't really want to go through that much extra hassle. At least I really don't...
the_beast wrote:I can hit 50MBps (40MBps average) on my Via and P3 based servers that have a single PCI bus running both the raid card and the network. They idle (excluding storage drives) at 18W (Via C3@800) and 30W (P3@500), although I hope to drop this further when I remove the system disc from the P3. Across the network I get faster sustained speeds than I get from my laptop's internal HDD.
Nice values. Both power and throughput.

On that note, you should check out SmallNetBuilder's BYO NAS articles. They found out the weirdest thing: because of the way "CIFS/Samba" networking works, maximum throughput won't go much above 70MBps even with VERY fast drives. 50MBps is usually the limit for more "performance-limited" CPUs (like the Atom, or anything VIA).

To keep a long story short, it has to do with maximum SMB packet payload and disk access (if I remember correctly). Right now, only Vista-based kernels (Vista SP1, W2K8 and W7) can break that value (SNB reached 107MBps, if memory serves me right), because they implement large SMB blocks (up to 2MB) if both parties support it. This leads to VERY reduced overhead both on the network stack and the disk driver (which usually causes interrupts). That explains your 50MBps max.
the_beast wrote:Note that the onboard SATA ports are not on the pci bus (although I assume you know this, and it's another 'translation' thing :))
Yes, I am aware of the 945+ICH7 chipset diagram. SATA ports are directly connected to the DMI (a.k.a. modified PCIe 4x) bus. I also know that there are really only two SATA channels on the ICH7. The third and fourth ones share bandwidth with the first one (I have tested this on several ocasions). That probably also happens with ports 4 and 5 on newer ICHs.

So, not the best option, max combined throughput I was able to get from two drives connected to "paired" SATA ports on the ICH7 was about 80MBps... Granted, that was with two 1st-gen SATA drives, but still...

That wasn't a translation thing, I was really refering to HDDs connected to controllers on PCI buses. But, as usual, I made a "logic hop", and assumed everyone else knew what I was talking about :P

Cheers.

Miguel

__Miguel_
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Location: Braga, Portugal

Post by __Miguel_ » Tue Feb 10, 2009 2:30 pm

Ok, small update to this thread.

As you know, I chatted with an Intel support guy. The "48 business hours" technically haven't expired (with the whole time difference between here and the US), so I'l check with them tomorrow.

I have, however, tried a uATX ASRock board (ConRoe 945G-DVI, for those who are curious) I have lying around with three SATA drives (one 80GB 1st-gen Hitachi, one 321KJ and one 103UJ), just to check.

Unfortunately, my only available PSU is incredibly noisy, and has to be placed about 30cm away from the HDDs, so I can't really hear them correctly (AND I have to power up the board with a screwdriver, so one hand is always unavailable. The Hitachi seems to power up at once, though I can't feel ANY vibration from it without holding it with my hands. And even then it's hard.

The Samsungs, on the other hand, appear to immediately come on-line when the power is turned on, BUT their distinct power-up sound (I've been working exclusively with Samsungs for the past two and a half years, I have 3 321KJs and now one 103UJ) is delayed, and does not happen at the same time. The weird thing is, another ASRock board (775i945GZ), which shares the same BIOS code, spins up two 321KJs at the same time (though they are on different SATA controllers).

So, what does that mean? What can I expect from this one? Do you know a reliable way to see if a drive is spinning up? Maybe glasses of water on the drives? (Yes, I know, dangerous)

Also, I have found out that Staggered Spin-up is set by the BIOS at startup:
ICH7 Datasheet wrote:Indicates whether the SATA
controller supports staggered spin-up on its ports, for use in balancing power
spikes. This value is loaded by platform BIOS prior to OS initialization.
Page 524 of the ICH7 datasheet talks about this. Apparently, a register state is the only thing I need to know to be sure the motherboard supports it.

The thing is, I'm not a programmer, nor I know an easy way to check this. Googling for the obvious turns out nothing. So, does anyone know an easy way to read that register?

Thanks in advance.

Cheers.

Miguel

__Miguel_
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Post by __Miguel_ » Mon Feb 23, 2009 12:18 pm

Ok, guys, I FINALLY have an answer from Intel Support.

It might have taken them less time if they only had READ the chat transcripts :roll:. I recieved an answer about one week ago, but they decided to point me to where I had already been (the southbridge datasheet), AND about which I had already talked with TWO operators. Maybe it's because I'm not a native English speaker, probably something got lost in translation... hehehe

Ok, so here it goes, a snip from the chat I've just had with a very helpfull tech support guy (oh, wait, did I just say that? It is REALLY possible to have a HELPFULL tech support person? :twisted::lol:) named "Otto":
Intel Tech Support chat wrote:Otto: Yes, the BIOS also supports it. Then again, the system has to be configured in AHCI or RAID
you: Hmm, ok, but if that's the case, why support for that feature is also stated for non-RAID models, like the ICH7-base?
you: Well, all non-DO/DH/DM/R ICHs, actually.
you: However, if the only thing I have to make sure to have is the ICH in AHCI/RAID mode, that's very good news indeed.
Otto: Yes... you are correct. It is supported on all settings. Sorry...
Do note the slight mistake I made: there are NO ICHxDM southbridges, only ICHxMs. Oh, well, too many "D"s in a row, I guess... :lol:

So, there you have it, Intel x45-based mini-ITX motherboards support Staggered Spin-Up, it seems.

I'm going to assume a lot now, so take this with plenty of salt, ok? From that transcript, and assuming Intel actually uses its reference BIOS code on their own motherboards (:roll:), my guess is just about ANY post ICH5 chipset (915P onwards, since ICH6 already supports Staggered Spin-Up, pre-ICH6 southbridges were PCI-based, AFAIK, and I'm not sure what their capabilities were) should support the feature.

If Intel simply enables the feature on the reference BIOS code, the manufacturers would actually have to spend time disabling it...

However, and I'll check this one as soon as I can with those glasses of water and three HDDs plus the ICH7, it might work a little differently than I was expecting. It seems to me that Staggered Spin-up only works per port pairs (tongue twister... hehehe sorry about that). Which is still perfectly fine, it just tells me the SATA ports on the controller are somewhat linked in pairs and separated among pairs (and in pairs). Ok, now THAT was weird, but I hope it was somewhat comprehensible.

But even if one drive per pair of ports is spinning up at the same time (which makes sense, actually, since Windows sees one controller per pair - I swear, it's almost over), the Pico should be able to handle it with ease.

Now, more good news: I've found another e-store in Portugal that handles Picos. And cheaper than just about anything I could find everywhere else (well, almost, €45 shipped from the UK is rather hard to beat, but I don't mind to pay for the extra warranty year :P... And besides, I was comparing a Pico 120W - UK - to a PM-200, which is more expensive to begin with).

So, now the only things missing are the 200W power brick (next task), a CPU (time to upgrade my E7300 to something beefier), memory and LOTS of money for the HDDs (which, btw, are still not available in Portugal... Being this far away from just about anywhere sucks...). Oh, right, and actually building the case. Almost forgot about that one... :oops:

Ahh, it feels good to finally have something going ok. I wonder what the next roadblock will be... :lol:

Cheers.

Miguel

the_beast
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Joined: Mon Sep 04, 2006 12:00 pm

Post by the_beast » Mon Mar 09, 2009 9:57 am

I have just discovered something that may be of interest in your quest to get staggered spin-up working properly - your power supply!

The SATA II specs for the power plug (available here) allow for a couple of optional uses for pin 11 (which was previously reserved in the SATA I spec). One of these is to disable staggered spin-up by pulling pin 11 low at startup. Out of curiosity I just checked the only power supply I have to hand, and pin 11 is grounded! This means that if the drive manufacturer supports spin-up control using pin 11, any such drives connected to this power supply will not spin up regardless of whether or not staggered spin-up is enabled or disabled on the drive jumpers or controller.

I haven't got any other psus to test available, so I am not sure if this is a widespread problem or if it is limited to the crappy CTX supply I had to hand. But it is worth checking, as it may be that many more motherboards support SSU than your initial testing might indicate. If you find pin 11 grounded then find some way of insulating it from the drives and your drives should spin up as expected (fingers crossed)

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