Samsung F3 series - 500GB per platter - 7200RPM - 500GB/1TB

Wilhelm-Tell · Post by **Wilhelm-Tell** » Sun Sep 20, 2009 12:35 pm

Here is mine (HD502HJ)

Idle temp @36Â°C in a Solo case with only a Noctua 12cm fan @500 rpm.

JVM · Post by **JVM** » Sun Sep 20, 2009 1:31 pm

There seems to be quite a difference if you use RAID 0

http://img32.imageshack.us/i/hdtunebenc ... diast.png/

Otter · Post by **Otter** » Sun Sep 20, 2009 3:19 pm

The thing about RAID 0 (and RAID 1) is that it doesn't make the seeks any faster. In fact, it will usually slow them down slightly. If you're transferring really large files, striping the data across two drives can nearly double the transfer rate. But when you're not moving huge amounts of sequential data in one go, there will be hardly any difference in performance.

Perhaps it's time start a RAID thread, though. I still want to hear people's impressions of the 1TB F3's.

JVM · Post by **JVM** » Sun Sep 20, 2009 3:25 pm

Access time is faster with RAID 0 versus a single disk.

Otter · Post by **Otter** » Sun Sep 20, 2009 4:06 pm

That depends on several factors, but I don't want to jack this thread anymore. Let's hear about those new F3's.

JVM · Post by **JVM** » Sun Sep 20, 2009 4:23 pm

I have one F3 500GB sitting idle waiting for Windows 7. All I can say at this time is the F3 is extremely quiet and runs cool. You can read comments on newegg.com about both the F3 500GB and 1TB versions. The one comment you will not get is reliability, because the drives have not been out that long, and this is I do believe their first entry in the 500GB platter design at 7200 rpm.

The other comment I can make is the F3 is very cheap for its capacity. For some reason, WD drives are more popular and cost more as well.

Post by **NeilBlanchard** » Sun Sep 20, 2009 6:58 pm

Hi,

A comment on the RAID: the controller is everything. Most GOOD controllers cost big bucks, and most of the ones that are included on motherboards are pretty mundane.

My F3 500GB is entering it's second week of flawless service!

Seeks are really only audible very late at night/very early in the morning.

JVM · Post by **JVM** » Mon Sep 21, 2009 4:26 am

NeilBlanchard wrote:Hi,

A comment on the RAID: the controller is everything. Most GOOD controllers cost big bucks, and most of the ones that are included on motherboards are pretty mundane.

My F3 500GB is entering it's second week of flawless service! Seeks are really only audible very late at night/very early in the morning.

A comment on the comment about RAID :

I think the controllers are more important for true RAID, such as RAID, 1, 5, etc. But, and I may be wrong, I think for RAID 0 the controller is not as important as for true RAID.

Otter · Post by **Otter** » Tue Sep 22, 2009 4:25 am

JVM wrote:I have one F3 500GB sitting idle waiting for Windows 7. All I can say at this time is the F3 is extremely quiet and runs cool. You can read comments on newegg.com about both the F3 500GB and 1TB versions.

Reading Newegg reviews is about as useful as asking random drunks in a bar. But especially when it comes to noise levels, I value the experience of fellow silence freaks very highly. What sort of fans does your drive compete with?

The other comment I can make is the F3 is very cheap for its capacity. For some reason, WD drives are more popular and cost more as well.

It's not surprising that WD's drives are more popular. Most people tend to be conservative about hard drives, and Samsung is still the new kid in storage.

Thanks to everyone who posted comments about their F3's. The 1TB version is at the top of my list right now, but I haven't been able to find them locally, in retail packaging, or from an online vendor who packs OEM drives properly.

JVM · Post by **JVM** » Tue Sep 22, 2009 4:40 am

Quite a statement about all newegg.com reviewers. There are some useful comments on newegg.com from people who are advanced beyond the beginner stage.

Are you asking me what fans I use? Look in my signature.

I don't think the reason WD is more popular than Samsung is because Samsung is newer to making hard drives.

Otter · Post by **Otter** » Tue Sep 22, 2009 6:09 am

JVM wrote:Quite a statement about all newegg.com reviewers. There are some useful comments on newegg.com from people who are advanced beyond the beginner stage.

Did I say anything at all about "all newegg.com reviewers"? No.

Ask enough drunks at the bar and you might find one who knows what he's talking about, but it's not always easy to tell which one that is. And if he only speaks a few sentences before he takes off after the stripper, you still don't have a context for his comments.

This is the problem with reviews on Newegg. People usually say things like, "it's fast and quiet". But compared to what? Also, some of the people there are posting to the wrong model, like the HD103SJ reviewer who claims his drive failed after eight months. Where did he get a 1TB F3 eight months ago? Add that the posts are anonymous, and I stand by my statement. But again, I'm not making any blanket statements about the people who post on Newegg except that they usually don't give many details, and even if they do, I don't know enough about them to evaluate their comments.

Are you asking me what fans I use? Look in my signature.

What I'm really asking is how for you've gone to silence your computer. Would you mind telling us the voltages, duty cycles, or RPM's for those fans, whether or not the other drives are still in the system, and how the drives are mounted? If you've already give this information, I apologize. It's been a hectic month here.

I don't think the reason WD is more popular than Samsung is because Samsung is newer to making hard drives.

Do you have an alternate theory?

JVM · Post by **JVM** » Tue Sep 22, 2009 6:59 am

The Slipstream used for rear is connected to a fanmate and running around 800 rpm. I use another Slipstream, same model, in the summer for my Ninja around 770 rpm. My two front Nexus Real Silent 92mm fans run through Fanmates at around 720 rpm. The hard drives listed in my signature are being used presently, 320GB is main hdd and 160GB for backing up. Both Hitachi drives are suspended via Antec elastic bands. My Intel E8400 is running at stock voltage with EIST enabled so core speed is 1999 MHz and multiplier is 6 @idle. The BIOS reports Normal Core Voltage at 1.225 and CPU-Z reports Core Voltage at 1.120. My video card is running at stock settings. My RAM is running at stock settings of 5-5-5-15 @2T. I now have 8GB of RAM in Vista 64-bit.

The Samsung F3 is initialized but not formatted at this time, and is also suspended via Antec elastic bands. When I install Windows 7, I will be using two Samsung F3 drives and probably the 160GB Hitachi for backing up certain data including pictures. The other F3--I have two F3's--will be used to make periodic full images of the main drive and replace the 320GB Hitachi. As to why I would keep the 160GB Hitachi installed instead of the 320GB, because I find the 160GB quieter and serves my needs at this time for backing up the data and pictures, etc. All this could change if I decide to go for another way of utilizing the Samsung F3 drives.

Another theory? Well, WD has a reputation, and reviews, for being faster than Samsung in general, and I think most of the market is looking for speed. The F3 is a new model and may be as fast or possibly faster than the WD 640GB Black, but that is not proven yet in reviews--I have not seen a single review of the F3 in U.S.A.

Samsung's reputation for reliability does not match that of WD. I have had two Samsung drives in the past, some years ago when they first came out with SATA drives. I had bad experiences with both Samsung drives, one could not have its temperature read and the other necessitated reinstalling of OS because of bad sectors.

I am giving Samsung one last opportunity in my computer. The main reasons I am taking the chance now is single 500GB platter, German review saying the build quality is excellent, Nidec spindle motor, very inexpensive for the capacity, and that is about it.

JVM · Post by **JVM** » Tue Sep 22, 2009 7:15 am

Uh-oh, I just read this on newegg.com from the last review of 500GB platter version:

Cons: When the hdd head is in action, you can notice the click it makes racing across the platter.

Now that does trouble me.

Post by **NeilBlanchard** » Tue Sep 22, 2009 8:25 am

Hi,

The two 500GB F3 drives that I have may have been louder right at first -- some sort of initialization, maybe? But, now the seek noise is only noticeable in the quietest times of day.

They are quiet drives.

JVM · Post by **JVM** » Tue Sep 22, 2009 8:36 am

NeilBlanchard wrote:Hi,

The two 500GB F3 drives that I have may have been louder right at first -- some sort of initialization, maybe? But, now the seek noise is only noticeable in the quietest times of day.

They are quiet drives.

I live in the country, very quiet here. I can tell when the mail comes by hearing a car go by. So, where I am, it is always the quietest time of day.

Do you have any comment to make on that statement at newegg:

Cons: When the hdd head is in action, you can notice the click it makes racing across the platter.

Otter · Post by **Otter** » Tue Sep 22, 2009 4:08 pm

JVM wrote:Do you have any comment to make on that statement at newegg:

Cons: When the hdd head is in action, you can notice the click it makes racing across the platter.

Yes. There isn't much detail to go on, but my guess is that the click is just normal seek noise. With the drive hard-mounted to a light aluminum case, seeks will be audible with nearly any drive.

JVM · Post by **JVM** » Tue Sep 22, 2009 5:14 pm

FYI, I tried both Hutil and ES Tool utilities from Samsung and neither works with the F3 500GB drive. What does work for some features is the Hitachi Feature Tool version 2.09. Now that is amazing, the Hitachi utility works for Samsung but the Samsung utilities don't work for Samsung F3.

Otter · Post by **Otter** » Tue Sep 22, 2009 5:32 pm

JVM wrote:Another theory? Well, WD has a reputation, and reviews, for being faster than Samsung in general, and I think most of the market is looking for speed. The F3 is a new model and may be as f:D ast or possibly faster than the WD 640GB Black, but that is not proven yet in reviews--I have not seen a single review of the F3 in U.S.A.

There is always a compromise between speed and quiet. Faster seeks will give you better performance, but they will also be louder. My concern with the new Spinpoints was that Samsung might have configured the new models for better performance at the expense of the acoustics. But from what you and Neil are saying, it sounds like they haven't changed their philosophy.

Thank you both very much. I think I'll probably wind up going with the 1tb version when it becomes available, but your detailed posts give me some idea what to expect.

Samsung's reputation for reliability does not match that of WD. I have had two Samsung drives in the past, some years ago when they first came out with SATA drives. I had bad experiences with both Samsung drives, one could not have its temperature read and the other necessitated reinstalling of OS because of bad sectors.

This is why I think it matters that WD has been making drives longer. In the absence of any clear reliability data, people tend to base their choice largely on their previous experiences. Drive failures can be catastrophic, but they're rare. Hence most people won't have a problem with their drives. When it's time to upgrade, they'll tend to buy the same brand if they had good luck last time. And if they buy the same brand twice and have no problems, they think that brand is rock solid. But the odds are strongly in favor of any two drives lasting the 3-5 years it takes for them to become hopelessly obsolete. Hence, the longer a drive manufacturer has been in business, the more people think that company's drives are reliable. OTOH, the results from the server farms seem to indicate that while there are clear statistical differences among models, the brand is not a good predictor of reliability. But because most drives are retired before they break, the longer you are around, the better your reputation for reliability will be, even if you occasionally put out a bad model.

The bad experiences of individual consumers often have little or nothing to do with the drive manufacturer. The drives fail because they were abused. Zipzoomfly is the only online vendor I know of that consistently packs small orders of OEM drives in a way that would not void the warranties. The best you're likely to get from the other e-tailers is bubble wrap and peanuts, but several of the major drive makers state that packing your RMA this way will void the warranty. And I've read that the damage from shipping abuse is not always obvious. Even when the drive is not DOA, there can be small particles knocked loose during shipment that increase wear and cause the drive to fail early. However, the retailer is usually only on the hook for the first 30 days, hence they have little interest in what happens after that.

Otter · Post by **Otter** » Tue Sep 22, 2009 5:35 pm

JVM wrote:Now that is amazing, the Hitachi utility works for Samsung but the Samsung utilities don't work for Samsung F3.

That is interesting. Does it give you an error message?

JVM · Post by **JVM** » Tue Sep 22, 2009 6:12 pm

Otter wrote:
JVM wrote:Now that is amazing, the Hitachi utility works for Samsung but the Samsung utilities don't work for Samsung F3.
That is interesting. Does it give you an error message?

Apparently the utility is not compatible with Vista. I could not boot from the disk as instructed with the command A:\> ES Tool.exe So I tried Start/accessories/run and typed the command in and received an error message the program is not compatible--same problem with Hutil utility.

All I can say is I hope the drive works better than the utility.

I formatted the drive and ran HD Tune Pro to see what kind of specs I get, and they are much better than my older Hitachi 320GB drive, even the access time is much improved, going from around 18-19 to 13.4/13.6.

JVM · Post by **JVM** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 10:04 am

Observing HD Tune graphs of both Samsung and WD, plus what I've seen on another site, the Read test usually shows a rather linear line as opposed to the first graph below that has numerous down-spikes in the picture. I wonder if that is an indication of something to be concerned about relative to the drive's reliability. Anyone care to comment?

viewtopic.php?p=481824#481824

viewtopic.php?p=480407#480407

Tzeb · Post by **Tzeb** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 10:53 am

Probably the test was done with that drive as the OS drive. Some background program "asked" something from the drive ---> spike.

JVM · Post by **JVM** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 11:42 am

Tzeb wrote:Probably the test was done with that drive as the OS drive. Some background program "asked" something from the drive ---> spike.

I ran the test with a brand new formatted F3, nothing on it, and also got a few down-spikes. If it is a background program, then it happens even with an empty disk.

sweatypickle · Post by **sweatypickle** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 1:35 pm

These types of utilities aren't meant to run outside of pure DOS. I've used ESTOOL with my new F3 1.0, F2 1.5 and F1 750 and it works fine.

JVM wrote:
Otter wrote:
JVM wrote:Now that is amazing, the Hitachi utility works for Samsung but the Samsung utilities don't work for Samsung F3.
That is interesting. Does it give you an error message?
Apparently the utility is not compatible with Vista. I could not boot from the disk as instructed with the command A:\> ES Tool.exe So I tried Start/accessories/run and typed the command in and received an error message the program is not compatible--same problem with Hutil utility.

All I can say is I hope the drive works better than the utility.

I formatted the drive and ran HD Tune Pro to see what kind of specs I get, and they are much better than my older Hitachi 320GB drive, even the access time is much improved, going from around 18-19 to 13.4/13.6.

JVM · Post by **JVM** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 1:54 pm

And I have used Hitachi's Feature Tool iin Vista 64-bit, Feature Tool is a DOS program. However, neither utilities from Samsung or WD will run in 64-bit OS. Now how can these manufacturers provide utilities, WD and Samsung, that do not support their drives when Hitachi's utility can and does support its own drives? Shame on WD and Samsung! If Hitachi can make a utility that runs in 64-bit Vista, so can those lazy bums, Samsung and WD.

sweatypickle wrote:These types of utilities aren't meant to run outside of pure DOS. I've used ESTOOL with my new F3 1.0, F2 1.5 and F1 750 and it works fine.

JVM wrote:
Otter wrote: That is interesting. Does it give you an error message?
Apparently the utility is not compatible with Vista. I could not boot from the disk as instructed with the command A:\> ES Tool.exe So I tried Start/accessories/run and typed the command in and received an error message the program is not compatible--same problem with Hutil utility.

All I can say is I hope the drive works better than the utility.

I formatted the drive and ran HD Tune Pro to see what kind of specs I get, and they are much better than my older Hitachi 320GB drive, even the access time is much improved, going from around 18-19 to 13.4/13.6.

Otter · Post by **Otter** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:26 pm

JVM wrote:I ran the test with a brand new formatted F3, nothing on it, and also got a few down-spikes. If it is a background program, then it happens even with an empty disk.

While I don't fully understand why you're getting them, I've seen enough graphs with downward spikes like that that I doubt it's a sign of impending hardware failure.

In my (limited) experience, failing drives tend to produce wide flatline sections on the transfer rate graph, and the access time points will be all over the place instead forming a nice milky-way band.

If you run the test again, are the spikes in the same place? If there is something wrong with the drive, it ought to show up in the SMART data. Have you tried checking that with CrystalDiskInfo or some similar utilty?

JVM · Post by **JVM** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:56 pm

Yes, I checked the Smart data and all was fine. The spike-downs are not always in the same place, and I get them on all of my drives tested, three in total. I was curious because the WD drives I have seen had nice-looking linear graphs without those down-spikes. By the way, the WD Caviar Black does have better access time than F3, but F3 gets better Read transfer scores.

Otter · Post by **Otter** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 4:06 pm

I think that's probably because the WD drives were tested on a system where nothing was running in the background.

Otter · Post by **Otter** » Thu Sep 24, 2009 8:35 am

While poking around the internet, I discovered that Samsung doesn't have a utility to enable CCTL (similar to Seagate's ERC and WD's TLER) on the F1 series. Either the drive has it, because you paid up to get the "RAID class" model, or it doesn't. This makes me wonder if these new F3 drives will tend to get dropped from RAID arrays because they spend too long trying to correct errors. I'm not convinced that any manufacturer's enterprise or "raid" drives are physically different than the regular drives. But the firmware might be an issue. OTOH, some say error recovery timeouts are only an issue for WD drives.

If you used non-raid F1's or F3's in a RAID 1, 10, 5, or 6 array, please tell me how how long you've been at it and whether or not you've had any problems. Because there is no redundancy, I don't think taking time for error recovery would be an issue with RAID 0.

sweatypickle · Post by **sweatypickle** » Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:56 am

The whole purpose of the utilities is to be able to have low level commands regardless of OS. It would be impossible to do this with an OS running in the background and foolish to do so. They provide one fully functioning utility that everyone can use. Just because you are a windows user doesn't mean everyone is.

JVM wrote:And I have used Hitachi's Feature Tool iin Vista 64-bit, Feature Tool is a DOS program. However, neither utilities from Samsung or WD will run in 64-bit OS. Now how can these manufacturers provide utilities, WD and Samsung, that do not support their drives when Hitachi's utility can and does support its own drives? Shame on WD and Samsung! If Hitachi can make a utility that runs in 64-bit Vista, so can those lazy bums, Samsung and WD.

sweatypickle wrote:These types of utilities aren't meant to run outside of pure DOS. I've used ESTOOL with my new F3 1.0, F2 1.5 and F1 750 and it works fine.

JVM wrote: Apparently the utility is not compatible with Vista. I could not boot from the disk as instructed with the command A:\> ES Tool.exe So I tried Start/accessories/run and typed the command in and received an error message the program is not compatible--same problem with Hutil utility.

All I can say is I hope the drive works better than the utility.

I formatted the drive and ran HD Tune Pro to see what kind of specs I get, and they are much better than my older Hitachi 320GB drive, even the access time is much improved, going from around 18-19 to 13.4/13.6.