Intel X25-M

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qpc
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Intel X25-M

Post by qpc » Thu Nov 05, 2009 2:11 pm

Are there any objections to having this SSD (G2) opposed to i.e. VelociRaptor?

Size is not an issue as this drive would be boot/app drive only. Price is more than good.

Thanks

MikeC
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Post by MikeC » Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:40 pm

It's way faster and makes no noise whatsoever. If price is not an issue, there's only one choice.

frenchie
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Post by frenchie » Fri Nov 06, 2009 12:00 am

Hi,
Just installed my X25-M G2 (80Go) yesterday night. Installed windows 7 Ultimate on it in about 10 minutes, no trouble whatsoever.
Have to install everything back on the drive but just using a browser and installing an anti-virus, it feels quite fast. Even opening a web page is faster. You click, and it's there !!
I'll have to see until my config is back to "normal" to see what performance is like (that should load about 30Go of the drive)
Windows starts in about 15-20 seconds, add about 5-8 seconds for the post, and you have a computer ready to go in less than 30 seconds. And as soon as your desktop appears, it's ready (in XP, you have to wait until all the apps load, like antivirus, speedfan... before you can use the computer).

Also, the price of this drive is not bad here in France compared to competition. I paid 199.90 euros for it.

[EDIT] : the OCZ vertex 60Go is around 200 euros here
Last edited by frenchie on Fri Nov 06, 2009 2:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

Eunos
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Post by Eunos » Fri Nov 06, 2009 12:37 am

I'd suggest reading the Anandtech articles. The OCZ Vertex is worthy of consideration too.
SebRad wrote: Anandtech has produced several articles about the working of SSDs and why the early ones aren’t so good and why the newer ones are better. They also have performance reviews of the various drives.
First article
Second article
Windows 7 & Trim

Kyocera
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Post by Kyocera » Sun Nov 08, 2009 2:04 am

If you buy a SSD than Intel.


Samsung
uses "looks like TRIM"function. The controller uses NTFS as a map for free areas when the drive is not in use.
NTFS is Windows, just to remind you, so bye, bye: MAC, Linux.
The drive needs few hours idle time to correct itself, so do not think about coffee breaks; during this correction period, it writes with 45 Mb/sec to 60 MB/sec speeds; at the end it returns to 180 MB/sec.
If you perform sequental writes than the self-correcting is quick, and you should see at least half write speed before it returns to normal; for an average user the Samsung solution works very good.

BIG problem: "no RAID" if you wish that the "false TRIM" works; so, not usable.
Intel hits till 500MB/sec in read and 200MB/sec write in Raid-0; so if I'm building a better PC, the only thing left to do with Samsung is to clean a freezer with it.
Second big problem till now: if you have an older model there is no place to get an end-user flashable firmware that is in new drives shipped from factory; talk about customer support.

Indilinx:
Special firmware, only Windows, as usual.
With the first dedicated firmware, that should keep fragmentation at bay, the end result is far behind Samsung. The read speeds have a free-airplane like drop; even the write speeds get really HIT.
Samsung solves fragmentation rapidly with sequential write; the only thing to do for Indilinx with this firmware solution (the one most users have at this date) is to use, once a few months, the secure erase command and special program that restores performance and destroys ALL data.

The new and last firmware (full of fat bugs) with native TRIM support is limited to Windows 7; they are promising that it will work with future Mac and Linux. Not to forget that it is limited only to SuperTalent and OCZ hardware.
OCZ wanted to salvage their reputation with their latest firmware solution, that features "Garbage Collection". This tool is not leaning on TRIM while cleaning around, at least not, if you want a functional drive.
The last firmware revision manages to achive a miracle compared to the previous state of affairs, returning the read and write speeds to the start point; however it needs many many passes-heavy usage of cells-life span???
Trim is disabled, since they do not know how to implement it, without crashing all together.
One hour of idle is usually needed restore the drive.
They are trying now a solution with multiple Indilinx controllers; one could remember JMicron (well, that was stuttering).
It works in RAID.

Intel
Even under heavy testing abuse, that is far from home conditions, Intel returns to the intial write performance in just one pass, read is not affected.

At home there are no drops in performance; all without TRIM!!!
Intel has released an updated firmware (that had an issue with the updating tool) that includes native TRIM support. The most heavy issue, LBA tracking, was solved. The others can only dream about it.
Extremely effective in RAID; the motherboards almost choke with two drives in RAID; even if AHCI mode enabled (in BIOS).

So, I believe that Intel SSDs are the best choice on the market.

The best technical solution is having two Intel drives in RAID 0.

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Post by alleycat » Sun Nov 08, 2009 3:46 am

I've got an OCZ Vertex and I've been trying to follow the firmware updates but after initial high hopes, it seems like the whole thing is descending into a mess. I don't have the time or inclination to get to the bottom of it all. I also find the atmosphere on their forums a bit stifling. There is a strict policy of not mentioning competitors' products, which serves to make me suspicious about their own products' inadequacies. As a staunch believer in freedom of speech, I find it all a bit hard to swallow. It's kind of funny, because the forum members over there seem to lap it up. It reminds me of the saying "treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen".

Kyocera
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Post by Kyocera » Sun Nov 08, 2009 4:51 am

It's more about the masses.
On the whole mass of people it is possible to target-select a profile of members you wish.

Some think on these lines: "I made a bad decision, why not pushing someone else along"; others are egocentric, some bad informed, some do not wish to inform themselves since it requires too much effort,....

The rise and downfall of every forum resides in moderators.

I opened a profile at overclockersclub and left it in just one day. (they are very aggressive about banning for "bad behaviour", left are only sheep that talk in the wind, not having any deeper idea about what are they talking about).
I made a technical description and got attacked by a moderator about how: I just came along, making myself smart, ranting about since I have not tested to know-just read somewhere.....
He did not discuss the technical matter, or write what is different and why, he was just spitting all over me. (on a broadly known matter)
I deleted my avatar and departed.

At Bit-tech was also very interesting.
A member opens a thread about how is he hacking Microsoft Live service since he lives somewhere in Africa and Microsoft is so evil in not offering the service there; on top he bought a Live bundle on black market for big bucks and was saying how evil is Microsoft since he cannot use the bundle (no codes inside) for which he paid.
He even phoned Microsoft and tried to discuss the matter; Microsoft told him, that they will at minimum ban him (for hacking) if not something worse.

I told him, that a company has a right to decide where will they offer their products, that he, as a customer has the right to return the bundle to the merchant and ask for refund, that the obligations reside between him and the merchant not between him and Microsoft.
He went on "why should I return the package to the poor merchant, it's Microsoft that....") He wants to use Live, and he wants, he is not interesting what legal is, he wants, he does not want to use a competitor, and since he wants...
The merchant is selling for money, and has a contract with Microsoft (directly or indirectly); he as a customer can only present his proposal to a company, instead of defamating and forcing the hand. I told him, that the problem is in him being egocentric and that his parents should have taken a switch at him, when they still had a chance.

10 minutes later I was banned from the forum, because I have hurt his feelings (about his wants and telling him that he indulges in illegal activity); banned from the deputy Editor of Bit-tech!!!
My friend has business ties to Microsoft and he informed himself; the bundle is available only on the black market.

The only thing that I'm perplexed about is why they did not ban Microsoft for threatening the customer with prison.????

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Post by lobuni » Sun Nov 08, 2009 5:58 am

Kyocera wrote: Intel
Intel has released an updated firmware (that had an issue with the updating tool) that includes native TRIM support.
I have not followed the situation very closely but are you talking about an update for the data corruption issue that came with the TRIM firmware? I thought a new firmware was weeks or even months away.

JVM
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Post by JVM » Sun Nov 08, 2009 6:14 am

lobuni wrote:
Kyocera wrote: Intel
Intel has released an updated firmware (that had an issue with the updating tool) that includes native TRIM support.
I have not followed the situation very closely but are you talking about an update for the data corruption issue that came with the TRIM firmware? I thought a new firmware was weeks or even months away.
He is talking about the new firmware that included TRIM support. I updated all my Intel SSD with the new firmware without any problems, some others were not so fortunate.

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Post by JVM » Sun Nov 08, 2009 6:19 am

frenchie wrote:Hi,
Just installed my X25-M G2 (80Go) yesterday night. Installed windows 7 Ultimate on it in about 10 minutes, no trouble whatsoever.
Have to install everything back on the drive but just using a browser and installing an anti-virus, it feels quite fast. Even opening a web page is faster. You click, and it's there !!
I'll have to see until my config is back to "normal" to see what performance is like (that should load about 30Go of the drive)
Windows starts in about 15-20 seconds, add about 5-8 seconds for the post, and you have a computer ready to go in less than 30 seconds. And as soon as your desktop appears, it's ready (in XP, you have to wait until all the apps load, like antivirus, speedfan... before you can use the computer).

Also, the price of this drive is not bad here in France compared to competition. I paid 199.90 euros for it.

[EDIT] : the OCZ vertex 60Go is around 200 euros here
After installing all my applications and stuff, the start up time became longer. I haven't timed it, but from seeing the Starting Windows thing to actual desktop is definitely longer than after installing Windows 7 without all my stuff on it.

Yes, once you get to the desktop it is pretty much ready to do anything, much faster than Vista, even loading Speedfan is much faster.

Kyocera
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Post by Kyocera » Sun Nov 08, 2009 8:42 am

The problem was apparently in the upgrade tool (version 1.3) when combined with Windows 7 64 bit and not in the 02HA firmware itself.

Anyway, Intel has reacted at once an clearly, not as others, with subterfuges.

I also decided for an Intel SSD, however I received the drive at a later time.

JVM
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Post by JVM » Sun Nov 08, 2009 8:57 am

Kyocera wrote:The problem was apparently in the upgrade tool (version 1.3) when combined with Windows 7 64 bit and not in the 02HA firmware itself.

Anyway, Intel has reacted at once an clearly, not as others, with subterfuges.

I also decided for an Intel SSD, however I received the drive at a later time.
Well, I upgraded 2 Intel SSD with Windows 7 x64 and had no problem, so I think the problem is something else.

Kyocera
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Post by Kyocera » Sun Nov 08, 2009 9:19 am

I have the Win7 64bit and no inclination to test on my SSD. :)) :)) :))

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Post by hmsrolst » Sun Nov 08, 2009 9:24 am

Kyocera wrote:I have the Win7 64bit and no inclination to test on my SSD. :)) :)) :))
I have Win 7 32 bit and am tempted. Can you provide links to your analysis RE 64 vs. 32?

Kyocera
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Post by Kyocera » Sun Nov 08, 2009 9:34 am

It is not my analysis; it's Intel's.

Considering that Intel has warned not to play with the update till further notice, Intel is not going to recognize the warranty if something goes wrong.
So, better not to be tempted.

PartEleven
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Post by PartEleven » Sun Nov 08, 2009 3:41 pm

Kyocera wrote:It's more about the masses.... *snip*
Not to be off-topic, but this is the major reason why SPCR is the only PC forum I participate in. I find members on other forums can be quite elitist.

Back to the topic (though I think it's been answered in many ways already), an SSD would be superior to the Velociraptor in practically every possible way. Well, except price. But that's not a problem for OP.

lm
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Post by lm » Sun Nov 08, 2009 4:07 pm

Capacity also... I couldn't afford 300GB worth of Intel SSD.

I guess I could at some point get a 80GB Intel SSD to move my linux partition of about that size away from the Velociraptor, and then expand the windows partition to the whole of the Velociraptor.

lm
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Post by lm » Sun Nov 08, 2009 4:11 pm

Kyocera wrote:...his parents should have taken a switch at him, when they still had a chance.

10 minutes later I was banned from the forum...
Didn't see that one coming...

Not to be off topic, but I'd like to recommend to you, that even when you strongly disagree with someone, keep your manners and stay professional. I'm pretty sure that will make you get banned less.

Eunos
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Post by Eunos » Sun Nov 08, 2009 7:04 pm

Just to steer the thread away from becoming an Intel love-fest, Anand has the following to say:

Those who spent over $600 on Intel's first SSD deserve to be taken care of but instead they get no TRIM support and no SSD Optimizer. Both of these are things that Indilinx has offered it's customers before Intel. Vertex owners have had a wiper tool since before Intel ever announced intentions to enable TRIM on the G2.

The write speed improvement that the Intel firmware brings to 160GB drives is nice but ultimately highlights a bigger issue: Intel's write speed is unacceptable in today's market. Back when Indilinx first arrived there was no real threat, but today Intel is facing a much more mature group of competitors.


X-25 is still regarded as the best on the market, but the company and product has its limitations like any other...

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Post by JVM » Sun Nov 08, 2009 7:12 pm

"X-25 is still regarded as the best on the market"

That to me is the bottom line.

Kyocera
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Post by Kyocera » Sun Nov 08, 2009 11:00 pm

lm wrote:
Kyocera wrote:...his parents should have taken a switch at him, when they still had a chance.

10 minutes later I was banned from the forum...
Didn't see that one coming...

Not to be off topic, but I'd like to recommend to you, that even when you strongly disagree with someone, keep your manners and stay professional. I'm pretty sure that will make you get banned less.
What about the 160GB one? that should be more than enough to keep everything on it, and the price is still digestible for home use, as opposed to the 320GB model.

(you're right; I should have stayed professional and tell him :"you're a criminal, scoundrel that frauds Microsoft's Live Service,... and If I got banned I would just turn the site to the law enforcement and Microsoft Legal Department for supporting fraudulent activity.
Anyway, that site was the only one I got such problems till now; probably because I do not posses double moral; the site clamps down on torrents talk, but encourages fraudulence and leeching of children and others that would like to play a honest game on Live.)
Last edited by Kyocera on Sun Nov 08, 2009 11:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Kyocera
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Post by Kyocera » Sun Nov 08, 2009 11:29 pm

Eunos wrote:Just to steer the thread away from becoming an Intel love-fest, Anand has the following to say:

Those who spent over $600 on Intel's first SSD deserve to be taken care of but instead they get no TRIM support and no SSD Optimizer. Both of these are things that Indilinx has offered it's customers before Intel. Vertex owners have had a wiper tool since before Intel ever announced intentions to enable TRIM on the G2.

The write speed improvement that the Intel firmware brings to 160GB drives is nice but ultimately highlights a bigger issue: Intel's write speed is unacceptable in today's market. Back when Indilinx first arrived there was no real threat, but today Intel is facing a much more mature group of competitors.


X-25 is still regarded as the best on the market, but the company and product has its limitations like any other...
Anandtech is one of those sites, that on occasion twists the presenting and wording of simple things, when it comes to certain producers; I'm not saying that this is the case; of course. 8)

Intel SSDs are far from ideal and the company is certainly not a paragon of sorts, however they at least keep to promised.
Others sell you a drive that writes 180MB/sec; after a time (used drive) that speed stutters around 50-60MB/sec, tearing along the read speed.
Samsung had even an illuminated idea of drive restoring that involves heavy every day rewriting-grounding the drive in time to dust, in the process; well, an anti recession arrangement (you just buy a new one).

OCZ has a horde of clients protesting that even the Secure erase method does not restore their drives to a normal speed for more than a month or two of usage. The problem is in the "long" time drive stability, not in the mentioned blanking method.
OCZ is one of the worst offenders, promising heavens that are just around the corner; the only problem is that we are listening this for more than a year now.

The first generation of Intel's drives performs rock solid till today; they had an issue with performance decline that could not be "repaired" if the drive got stressed in a manner that is not to envision in home usage. Intel responded with a firmware upgrade that solved the matter.
So, their first generation drives maintain the performance even without TRIM and Windows 7; a thing that the customers of the highly praised competition can only dream about.
The first generation had only one impossible problem; the price.

johnbentley
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Post by johnbentley » Wed Nov 11, 2009 6:13 am

Mike wrote "It's [Intel X25-M SSD (G2)] way faster [than the VelociRaptor]".

From Eunos' link to Anandtach > Updated: The SSD Improv: Intel & Indilinx get TRIM, Kingston Brings Intel Down to $115 the "2MB Sequential Write" Graph has results of:

* Western Digital VelociRaptor 300GB at 119.7 MB/s
* Intel X25-M G2 160GB (MLC) TRIM at 101.7 MB/s
* Intel X25-M G2 80GB (MLC) TRIM at 81.6 MB/s

For writes the VelociRaptor is faster. Is it in the reads that the Intel X25-M G2 is faster?

Edit:
A few pages on for 2MB Sequential Reads

* Western Digital VelociRaptor 300GB at 120 MB/S
* Intel X25-M G2 160GB (MLC) TRIM at 256.7 MB/s
* Intel X25-M G2 80GB (MLC) TRIM at 256.9 MB/s.

I see :)

Kyocera
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Post by Kyocera » Wed Nov 11, 2009 7:04 am

Western Digital Caviar Black 2TB performs much better than Velociraptor.

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Post by swivelguy2 » Wed Nov 11, 2009 7:18 am

johnbentley wrote: For writes the VelociRaptor is faster. Is it in the reads that the Intel X25-M G2 is faster?
Yes, the X25-M is faster for reads, but that's missing the point. The SSD is MUCH MUCH faster for anything involving random access.

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Post by dhanson865 » Wed Nov 11, 2009 9:00 am

+1 to swivelguy2

I wouldn't consider buying a Velociraptor now but I guess I'd find a use for one if someone gave me a freebie. I'll be buying SSDs and low power hard drives from here on.

johnbentley
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Post by johnbentley » Wed Nov 11, 2009 9:25 am

swivelguy2 wrote:SSD is MUCH MUCH faster for anything involving random access
Thanks. I now see that SSD random access for *both* read and write is much faster than for traditional drives. Edit: And this matches with the subjective reports from users in this thread.

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Post by frenchie » Wed Nov 11, 2009 10:56 am

Performance index in Windows 7 with the X25-M G2 is 7,5 (out of 7,9) :D

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Post by JVM » Wed Nov 11, 2009 12:11 pm

frenchie wrote:Performance index in Windows 7 with the X25-M G2 is 7,5 (out of 7,9) :D
I got 7.7 with my Intel X25-M 160GB SSD. I did have 7.8 first time running the WEI.

Have you noticed whether Superfetch is disabled? Was the defrag schedule on or off?

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Post by Kyocera » Thu Nov 12, 2009 3:16 am

I've got some good news (for those with Indilinx controlled drives).

The cutting edge brand behind SSD drives, OCZ is dipping Indilinx.
OCZ's next generation drives will future SandForce controllers.
OCZ is also preparing for a huge capital injection to enlarge the SSD business.

http://www.ocztechnology.com/aboutocz/press/2009/355

http://www.sandforce.com/index.php?id=2

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