Samsung F4EG 2TB - a few technical problems

[theriel]

Hello,
It seems like Samsung F4EG HD204UI is currently the best option to buy.

I have, however, a few questions concerning 4k sectors - I must admit it is all quite new to me.

1.First of all - is it possible to turn off the hardware emulation of 512kb? I have Windows 7 and I would like to use it at its full ability. Will I lose a lot performance-wise if the emulation remains on?

2.Secondly - what will happen if it is used with older systems? Will the HDD not be recognised at all or just work slower?

3.Also - how should I deal with the drive once I get it? I know that I need to pay attention to prevent misalignment - how do I do that?

4.Flanno mentioned that he couldn't format them using 4k sectors. Has anybody solved this problem?

Thank you for help.

Best,
Theriel

[webwiznz2]

Theres a huge amount of fuss and bother about 4k sector AF drives. The simple fact is that the drives present to the OS as 512 byte/sector drives as do other drives. But the underlying sector size is 4K. Thus the important thing to remember is to partition the disk from scratch starting with an offset from the start of the drive in multiples of 4k. Modern OSs do this anyway, but with xp, do this:

1. put the ssd or AF hdd in the xp box as a second drive,
1a. using diskmanagment note which drive no. the new drive is, 0 for the first sata, 1 for the second etc.
2. download diskpar.exe (no t)
3. run , cmd
4. C:\yourpath\todiskpar\diskpar.exe -s 0 (assuming its sata 0)
5. when it asks for the offset for your partition use 64 sectors, or any multiple of 4 including the W7 default 2048. Its default choice will be 63, dont do it!
6. Use disk managment to format the partition to ntfs with 4k clusters (if ssd).
7. take the drives out and install the new drive in sata0 (assuming its to be your boot drive).
8. Install XP, using the partition/drive thus created, dont let it create or format any partitions.

Its easy when you know how. If you dont do this your drive will run slower, because the 8x512 byte groups dont line up with the 4k groups on the disk.

Edit. If you need multiple partitions they will all automatically be aligned, because 512 is a multiple of 4K. Thus doesnt matter how you create subsequent partions.

[dragonfruit]

Correct me if I am wrong, but after reading this article on 4k sectors:
http://seagate.com/docs/pdf/whitepaper/ ... ectors.pdf
I assume that it is possible to align Advanced Format drives (those ones, which are not provided with a special aligning software by HD manufacturer) for Windows XP usage with 3rd party 4k-aware partitioning utility:
"The most critical aspect of a smooth and successful transition to 4K sectors used in Advanced Format is to promote the use of 4K-aware hard drive partitioning tools."
"When using third-party software or utilities to create hard drive partitions, check with your vendor to make sure they are updated and confirmed to be 4K aware."
http://seagate.com/docs/pdf/whitepaper/ ... ectors.pdf

So to align properly for Win XP usage for example Samsung 2TB F4EG HD204UI one has to find a 3rd party software tool for partitioning, which is 4k-aware, and use that software to partition such disk instead of Windows XP Disk Manager.

Are there any free 4k-aware partitioning tools for Windows XP?

Also would re-aligning utilities provided by WD and Seagate work with other manufacturers HDs like Samsung?

From that article I learnt also that even the newer OSes like Windows 7 do not use 4k sectors directly, they still have to use 512 B sectors. Those newer systems are only capable of aligning Advanced Format hard drives properly during their partitioning, without the need to use 3rd party 4K-aware partitioning software, and that's all:
"there are many aspects of modern computing systems that continue to assume that sectors are always 512 bytes. To transition the entire industry over to the new 4K standard and expect all of these legacy assumptions to suddenly change is simply not realistic. Over time, the implementation of native 4K sectors, where both host and hard drive exchange data in 4K blocks, will take place. Until then, hard drive manufacturers will implement the 4K sector transition in conjunction with a technique called 512-byte sector emulation."
http://seagate.com/docs/pdf/whitepaper/ ... ectors.pdf

"The sector size increase, described by Advanced Format, occurs at the hard drive media level. Host systems will continue to request and receive data from the hard drive in 512-byte sector sizes. However, the translation from 4096-byte sectors in the hard drive to the 512-byte sectors in the host will be managed in the hard drive. This process is called 512-byte emulation. It’s important that every drive partition start with an LBA offset that is aligned to the drive’s physical 4K sector. If partitions are un-aligned, then hard drive performance will be degraded."
"How can partition misalignment conditions be managed?
The first management step is to avoid misaligned conditions in the first place. This can be achieved by creating hard drive partitions with a 4K aware version of your operating system or through a hard drive imaging software product."
"The second method to managing misaligned partitions is to use partition-alignment software to identify and fix misaligned partitions. This technique should be used during the hard drive integration process."
http://seagate.com/docs/pdf/whitepaper/ ... on_faq.pdf

"It’s not practical to make host computer systems talk in 4K native language – at least for a while. There are just too many places the 512 byte assumption is embedded. So, while hard drives will transition to 4K sectors physical sectors on the media, they will still “look and talk” like 512 byte formats to host computers. They will actually emulate 512 byte communications to hosts. This works well as long as the logical 512 byte assumptions from the host computer are aligned with the 4K sectors on the hard drive."
"It turns out that when a hard drive partition is created, the starting position can vary. A 4K drive format is set to work under the assumption that the first 512 byte sector (Logical Block Address = 0) will align perfectly with the first physical 4K sector".
"Alignment 0 ... works well for hard drives & 512 byte emulation because they can neatly map eight 512 byte logical blocks into a single sector. Sometimes hard drive partitions get created so the logical to physical alignment is off...".
"This is called Alignment 1 and it’s not so good for 4K drives when it comes to emulating 512 byte legacy sectors, especially when writing data. Essentially, this alignment can often cause a hard drive to manage a write with extra disc rotations, which slows things down. The results can be sort of dramatic as shown by these test results at HOTHARDWARE.com:
http://hothardware.com/Articles/WDs-1TB ... on/?page=2 "
"The Windows XP situation seems fairly well understood in the marketplace. What is much less understood is the situation with cloning and imaging software. System builders, integrators and IT organizations frequently rely on these tools to configure systems for sale or deployment in their organization. Even if you are using Windows Vista or Windows 7, if your hard drive was partitioned with one of these utilities, you’re likely to end up with an un-aligned partition with the potential for poor performance."
http://consumer.media.seagate.com/2010/ ... ve-primer/

Video on 4K sectors:
http://www.techinsight.tv/seagate-on-4k-technology.html
http://usingwindowshomeserver.com/2010/ ... rd-drives/
Seagate manages aligment problems in the background without any interaction or knowledge of user.

BTW, a warning against 2TB hard drives:
http://www.clearfoundation.com/componen ... 489/#15489

[zsero]

Guys you make all this 4K a bigger issue then it is. The easiest thing you can do with a 4K drive is to partition it under Windows 7 in any computer, using a USB caddy for example! You can use a USB caddy or a SATA-USB adapter or native SATA connection, it doesn't matter. Everyone has a Windows 7 notebook/netbook around, they will work fine. Once the drive is partitioned, if you don't delete the partition just reformat it then all the 4K aware thing will be saved. Just don't delete the partition under XP or 2003.

Tip: if you don't have Windows 7 around, or you don't want to take your HDD out, then download the official recovery boot CD-s from the internet and use them.

Don't use partition aligning by Paragon, I had data corruption by using their software. Acronis made ones works well, btw. (WD align is a rebranded Acronis one)

[dragonfruit]

Don't use partition aligning by Paragon, I had data corruption by using their software. Acronis made ones works well, btw. (WD align is a rebranded Acronis one)

But if you would use Paragon Aligning Tool for empty (formated in XP) drive, then there is nothing to corrupt, so in this case it should be safe, shouldn't it?

[zsero]

Don't use partition aligning by Paragon, I had data corruption by using their software. Acronis made ones works well, btw. (WD align is a rebranded Acronis one)

But if you would use Paragon Aligning Tool for empty (formated in XP) drive, then there is nothing to corrupt, so in this case it should be safe, shouldn't it?

If you like waiting for hours instead of creating a good one with one click, then yes, in theory it would work. Booting your computer with a Win 7 recovery cd isn't that hard at all.

[dragonfruit]

If you like waiting for hours instead of creating a good one with one click, then yes, in theory it would work. Booting your computer with a Win 7 recovery cd isn't that hard at all.

So you claim that Win 7 recovery cd should be able to format a new HD? And what about the case when someone formatted it already with Win XP. Would formatting it then with Win 7 recovery CD make it aligned?

[zsero]

If you like waiting for hours instead of creating a good one with one click, then yes, in theory it would work. Booting your computer with a Win 7 recovery cd isn't that hard at all.

So you claim that Win 7 recovery cd should be able to format a new HD? And what about the case when someone formatted it already with Win XP. Would formatting it then with Win 7 recovery CD make it aligned?

Formatting doesn't matter, partitioning does. What you need to do is to:
1. delete all partitions from the disk
2. create partitions as you would like

Here are the disks from Neosmart.net. They are in torrents, but they are legal, just like linux ISO-s.
http://neosmart.net/blog/2009/windows-7 ... air-discs/

But read a tutorial or print one about how to use diskpart.exe as those disks doesn't have a GUI for partitioning. You will have to give commands like:
1. "list disks"
2. "select disk 1" <- be very careful which one you choose!
3. "clean"
4. "create partition primary"
5. "select partition 1"
6. "format fs=ntfs quick"
7. "exit"
This will create one big partition with the max size. Use help {command} to get help about commands.

[axishero]

I just got my new HD204UI/CEC.It turns out the disk quality is not so good compare to my other poccessions.

[dragonfruit]

If you like waiting for hours instead of creating a good one with one click, then yes, in theory it would work. Booting your computer with a Win 7 recovery cd isn't that hard at all.

So you claim that Win 7 recovery cd should be able to format a new HD? And what about the case when someone formatted it already with Win XP. Would formatting it then with Win 7 recovery CD make it aligned?

Formatting doesn't matter, partitioning does. What you need to do is to:
1. delete all partitions from the disk
2. create partitions as you would like

Here are the disks from Neosmart.net. They are in torrents, but they are legal, just like linux ISO-s.
http://neosmart.net/blog/2009/windows-7 ... air-discs/

But read a tutorial or print one about how to use diskpart.exe as those disks doesn't have a GUI for partitioning. You will have to give commands like:
1. "list disks"
2. "select disk 1" <- be very careful which one you choose!
3. "clean"
4. "create partition primary"
5. "select partition 1"
6. "format fs=ntfs quick"
7. "exit"
This will create one big partition with the max size. Use help {command} to get help about commands.

On this web page: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/982018/en-us M$ shows a table: 'Support for Hard Disk Formats based on OS Version', which shows that this 512e spupport is available only since Windows 7 SP1 or Windows 7 with KB 982018 hotfix:
"Advanced Format, 512-bye Emulation, 512e, 4k/512e 4 KB 512 bytes Windows 7 with MS KB 982018
Windows 7 SP1 "

So does Neosmart Windows 7 recovery disk include that KB 982018 hotfix? If not, then perhaps it will not be aligned properly?

[dragonfruit]

I just got my new HD204UI/CEC.It turns out the disk quality is not so good compare to my other poccessions.

Could you please elaborate, why it is not so good, and to which other drives you are comparing it. What is the software a sreenshot you copied, MHDD? Are screenshots of tests of your other drives available? Could you please post links to them?

[zsero]

On this web page: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/982018/en-us M$ shows a table: 'Support for Hard Disk Formats based on OS Version', which shows that this 512e spupport is available only since Windows 7 SP1 or Windows 7 with KB 982018 hotfix:
"Advanced Format, 512-bye Emulation, 512e, 4k/512e 4 KB 512 bytes Windows 7 with MS KB 982018
Windows 7 SP1 "

So does Neosmart Windows 7 recovery disk include that KB 982018 hotfix? If not, then perhaps it will not be aligned properly?

The article says it improves how the operating system _works_ when using these hard drives. Like handling buffers, some special APIs and so on. If you use Windows 7 this hotfix might help get better performance but:
- Windows 7 works just right out of the box with Advanced Format drives and SSDs. The hotfix might help improve, but millions of computers are working fine without the hotfix.
- The hotfix has nothing to do with partitioning. No matter what you do, Windows 7 automatically does partitioning padded to 2048 sectors. That's the only thing you care about when you want to use the hard drive later in XP.

[I.S.T.]

I'm looking to buy one of these, and i have a question. Will the drive be auto-partitioned to use 4K sectors under Vista SP2?

[larrymoencurly]

I just got my new HD204UI/CEC.It turns out the disk quality is not so good compare to my other poccessions.

< 3ms: 14820835
< 10ms: 499251
< 50ms: 1569
<150ms: 27
<500ms: 2

I got comparable results, with both runs about like this:

< 3ms: 14951644
< 10ms: 368844
< 50ms: 1150
<150ms: 44
<500ms: 2

OTOH my 2TB always tested about as follows:

< 3ms: 14672666
< 10ms: 648967
< 50ms: 51
<150ms: 0
<500ms: 0