In Search of 0812C

CoolGav · Post by **CoolGav** » Tue Dec 30, 2003 10:16 am

It's available in the UK (eg at Overclockers, £47 + VAT), so it does exist.

Post by **Ralf Hutter** » Tue Dec 30, 2003 11:42 am

At least the 0812C's exist!

I do remember seeing the SP0812C available in a few places here in the US when the SATA Spinpoints first came out so I do think it's actually available (whether or not anyone has them in stock is another matter) as opposed to the SP0812N which doesn't ever seem to have been available.

Jan Kivar · Post by **Jan Kivar** » Wed Dec 31, 2003 2:10 am

We've had those for at least a month in stores... Samsung has only 8 MB SATA models, maybe that explains it. We have only the 2 MB PATA on stores here.

Some stores list the 60 GB 2 MB PATA one as well...

Cheers,

Jan

cmcquistion · Post by **cmcquistion** » Thu Jan 01, 2004 9:25 am

I just ordered that particular drive from ewiz, myself, then I came here and did a search for it

I'll post my impressions, once it gets here. (Fedex Ground from the west coast to Tennessee)

JVM · Post by **JVM** » Thu Jan 01, 2004 9:58 am

Ralf Hutter wrote:At least the 0812C's exist!

I do remember seeing the SP0812C available in a few places here in the US when the SATA Spinpoints first came out so I do think it's actually available (whether or not anyone has them in stock is another matter) as opposed to the SP0812N which doesn't ever seem to have been available.

The Samsung SP0802N is available at Newegg: http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProduct.a ... 14&order=1

Edit: Sorry, I just realized you were asking about the SP0812N which has 8 MB buffer and this SP0802N has a 2 MB buffer.

cmcquistion · Post by **cmcquistion** » Thu Jan 01, 2004 11:42 am

JVM wrote:
Ralf Hutter wrote:At least the 0812C's exist!

I do remember seeing the SP0812C available in a few places here in the US when the SATA Spinpoints first came out so I do think it's actually available (whether or not anyone has them in stock is another matter) as opposed to the SP0812N which doesn't ever seem to have been available.
The Samsung SP0802N is available at Newegg: http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProduct.a ... 14&order=1

Edit: Sorry, I just realized you were asking about the SP0812N which has 8 MB buffer and this SP0802N has a 2 MB buffer.

The SP0802N (what Newegg has in stock) and the SP0812N are PATA drives. The SP0812C is the SATA version, with 8 MB cache.

Badashmods · Post by **Badashmods** » Fri Jan 02, 2004 10:42 pm

http://www.ewiz.com/detail.php?p=HD-SM80SAT&c=pw

JVM · Post by **JVM** » Wed Jan 07, 2004 7:06 am

Radeonman wrote:So it arrived. SATA power connectors are finicky bastards, taking half an hour to get it plugged in correctly so that the drive spins up. The whine is noticibly louder than the Cuda V, but seek sounds are much better. More importantly, when mounted in the NoVibes with no airflow in a 5.25 cage, temps stay under 40C. In the quick benchmark tests I did with Aida, the samsung whalloped the Cuda in every test. Also, buffered reads reached 120 MB/sec!

Now I just have to get windows set up on it and transfer everything over. Reinstalls are a biotch - thankfully with the native support for SATA on the mobo, no seperate drivers are needed. Yay for the ICHR5.

How bad is that whine and has the NoVibes eliminated it? And you are getting temps under 40C with the HDD mounted in NoVibes in a 5.25" bay? What case are you using and is there a front fan blowing?

JVM · Post by **JVM** » Wed Jan 07, 2004 12:42 pm

Radeonman wrote:
JVM wrote:How bad is that whine and has the NoVibes eliminated it? And you are getting temps under 40C with the HDD mounted in NoVibes in a 5.25" bay? What case are you using and is there a front fan blowing?
The whine is not bad at all - in fact, it's good. The pitch is high, but if my head isn't near the case I can't hear it at all. I just believe the Cuda V to be quieter in this scenario. The NoVibes did *nothing* for whine.

The temps under 40C are mounted in the NoVibes in the 5.25" with no airflow. I have a Cheiftec Dragon. I used to have a front fan, but it is currently unplugged. The nice thing about having the novibes up in a 5.25" bay as opposed to on the floor next to the case fan is that there is more solid material obstructing any HD noise from my ear.

I read that using NoVIbes in a 5.25" bay increases HDD temperature by about 10C and so you are getting, I think, absolutely great temperature for the HDD. That Chieftic Dragon must be breathing lots of air into your components.

cmcquistion · Post by **cmcquistion** » Fri Jan 09, 2004 6:08 pm

I got my 0812C and I'm not that impressed. With AAM on, seeks are just as loud, and perhaps a tad louder, than my IBM 180 GXP with AAM on. This is when mounted in an Evercase 4252 with rubber grommets.

Sandra benchmarks scores are about 3% higher than the 180 GXP.

JVM · Post by **JVM** » Sat Jan 10, 2004 6:24 am

cmcquistion wrote:I got my 0812C and I'm not that impressed. With AAM on, seeks are just as loud, and perhaps a tad louder, than my IBM 180 GXP with AAM on. This is when mounted in an Evercase 4252 with rubber grommets.

Sandra benchmarks scores are about 3% higher than the 180 GXP.

Perhaps a front door on your case would help?

Well, that certainly must have been an unpleasant surprise considering all that has been said about how quiet Samsung drives are.

AAM on could mean set for performance rather than quiet. Using DTemp, I find AAM enabled but current value set to maximum performance with my Maxtor HDD.

cmcquistion · Post by **cmcquistion** » Sat Jan 10, 2004 6:48 am

JVM wrote:
cmcquistion wrote:I got my 0812C and I'm not that impressed. With AAM on, seeks are just as loud, and perhaps a tad louder, than my IBM 180 GXP with AAM on. This is when mounted in an Evercase 4252 with rubber grommets.

Sandra benchmarks scores are about 3% higher than the 180 GXP.
Perhaps a front door on your case would help?

Well, that certainly must have been an unpleasant surprise considering all that has been said about how quiet Samsung drives are.

AAM on could mean set for performance rather than quiet. Using DTemp, I find AAM enabled but current value set to maximum performance with my Maxtor HDD.

I have the case closed up, as usual.

I used the IBM/Hitachi Drive Feature Tool to turn on AAM and lower it to the quietest setting on both drives.

JVM · Post by **JVM** » Sat Jan 10, 2004 6:55 am

cmcquistion wrote:
JVM wrote:
cmcquistion wrote:I got my 0812C and I'm not that impressed. With AAM on, seeks are just as loud, and perhaps a tad louder, than my IBM 180 GXP with AAM on. This is when mounted in an Evercase 4252 with rubber grommets.

Sandra benchmarks scores are about 3% higher than the 180 GXP.
Perhaps a front door on your case would help?

Well, that certainly must have been an unpleasant surprise considering all that has been said about how quiet Samsung drives are.

AAM on could mean set for performance rather than quiet. Using DTemp, I find AAM enabled but current value set to maximum performance with my Maxtor HDD.
I have the case closed up, as usual.

I used the IBM/Hitachi Drive Feature Tool to turn on AAM and lower it to the quietest setting on both drives.

The Evercase 4252 has a front door?

So the Samsung came with AAM set for Fast (performance)?

Looking at the AAM utility for Samsung PATA drives, the settings are Quiet, Medium, and Fast - if I remember correctly. And the IBM/Hitachi utility works for Samsung? Can you provide a link to that utility?

Post by **Ralf Hutter** » Sat Jan 10, 2004 7:02 am

JVM wrote: So the Samsung came with AAM set for Fast (performance)?

Not that I know of. I've had 3 Spinpoints (all PATA though) and all have come with AAM set at the quiet mode by default. Maybe Samsung has the fast mode enabled on their SATA drives for some reason.

JVM wrote:Looking at the AAM utility for Samsung PATA drives, the settings are Quiet, Medium, and Fast - if I remember correctly. And the IBM/Hitachi utility works for Samsung? Can you provide a link to that utility?

Hitachi Feature Tool (about halfway down the page)

JVM · Post by **JVM** » Sat Jan 10, 2004 7:41 am

Does the Evercase 4252 have a front door that covers the external drives similar to the Sonata?

How did you know the Samsung 0812C came with AAM set to Fast (performance)?

cmcquistion · Post by **cmcquistion** » Sat Jan 10, 2004 9:08 am

JVM wrote:Does the Evercase 4252 have a front door that covers the external drives similar to the Sonata?

How did you know the Samsung 0812C came with AAM set to Fast (performance)?

No, the Evercase 4252 does not have a door.

When I got my 0812C. it booted up the IBM/Hitachi Feature tool and checked the AAM status. It was set to maximum performance. I lowered it to the lowest noise setting. The difference is noticable, but it doesn't change the noise, as much as my IBM/Hitachi 180GXP. On that drive, the difference is much more noticable.

As I mentioned before, though, with both drives set to lowest noise, this Samsung drive is NOT quieter (seek noise) than the IBM/Hitachi 180GXP. It is about the same, or slightly louder than the 180GXP.

Other mounting methods, such as sorbothane, foam, or elastic mounting, may produce different results. My results are applicable for rubber grommet mounting, specifically.

JVM · Post by **JVM** » Sat Jan 10, 2004 10:29 am

cmcquistion wrote:
JVM wrote:Does the Evercase 4252 have a front door that covers the external drives similar to the Sonata?

How did you know the Samsung 0812C came with AAM set to Fast (performance)?
No, the Evercase 4252 does not have a door.

When I got my 0812C. it booted up the IBM/Hitachi Feature tool and checked the AAM status. It was set to maximum performance. I lowered it to the lowest noise setting. The difference is noticable, but it doesn't change the noise, as much as my IBM/Hitachi 180GXP. On that drive, the difference is much more noticable.

As I mentioned before, though, with both drives set to lowest noise, this Samsung drive is NOT quieter (seek noise) than the IBM/Hitachi 180GXP. It is about the same, or slightly louder than the 180GXP.

Other mounting methods, such as sorbothane, foam, or elastic mounting, may produce different results. My results are applicable for rubber grommet mounting, specifically.

It looks like your results are valid in that you are comparing the two drives under the same circumstances - correct?

Kind of surprising that Samsung would have their SATA drives set to Performance but I kind of expected that. Still, I am very surprised of the noise level being louder than the IBM/Hitachi.

If I recall correctly, the Samsung drives are *supposed* to be quieter than the Seagate drives when seeking. Could the Samsung SATA drives just be noisier than their PATA counterparts? And don't the PATA versions come with AAM set for Quiet?

Strange, very strange.

JVM · Post by **JVM** » Sat Jan 10, 2004 10:32 am

cmcquistion wrote:
JVM wrote:Does the Evercase 4252 have a front door that covers the external drives similar to the Sonata?

How did you know the Samsung 0812C came with AAM set to Fast (performance)?
No, the Evercase 4252 does not have a door.

Ahh, another good reason for a front door. I believe a front door would help reduce HDD sound, especially if that front door was treated with acoustical dampening material.

JVM · Post by **JVM** » Sat Jan 10, 2004 10:38 am

Ralf Hutter wrote:
JVM wrote: So the Samsung came with AAM set for Fast (performance)?
Not that I know of. I've had 3 Spinpoints (all PATA though) and all have come with AAM set at the quiet mode by default. Maybe Samsung has the fast mode enabled on their SATA drives for some reason.

The reason could be experimentation. When I called Samsung a few months ago to inquire about their SATA drives, the tech guy said the SATA drives are still in the experimental stage - and there were Samsung SATA drives available to buy!

JVM · Post by **JVM** » Sat Jan 10, 2004 10:44 am

cmcquistion wrote:
JVM wrote:Does the Evercase 4252 have a front door that covers the external drives similar to the Sonata?

How did you know the Samsung 0812C came with AAM set to Fast (performance)?
No, the Evercase 4252 does not have a door.

When I got my 0812C. it booted up the IBM/Hitachi Feature tool and checked the AAM status. It was set to maximum performance. I lowered it to the lowest noise setting. The difference is noticable, but it doesn't change the noise, as much as my IBM/Hitachi 180GXP. On that drive, the difference is much more noticable.

As I mentioned before, though, with both drives set to lowest noise, this Samsung drive is NOT quieter (seek noise) than the IBM/Hitachi 180GXP. It is about the same, or slightly louder than the 180GXP.

Other mounting methods, such as sorbothane, foam, or elastic mounting, may produce different results. My results are applicable for rubber grommet mounting, specifically.

Is that IBM/Hitachi a PATA or SATA version? I ask because I know at Samsung's website their is a utility to change AAM for their PATA drives but not SATA: http://www.samsung.com/Products/HardDis ... /hutil.htm

bluenote · Post by **bluenote** » Sun Jan 11, 2004 4:47 am

this advice on the seek noise of the sata spinpoint 0812c is worrying me a little. I'm about to buy a 80go sata hard drive, to put in a silent drive enclosure i already own. i was intersted ind the spinpoint cos it seems to wook cooler than the other but if the seek noise is really present....
perhaps a hitachi 7k250 or a seagate will give a better result?

JVM · Post by **JVM** » Sun Jan 11, 2004 6:20 am

bluenote wrote:this advice on the seek noise of the sata spinpoint 0812c is worrying me a little. I'm about to buy a 80go sata hard drive, to put in a silent drive enclosure i already own. i was intersted ind the spinpoint cos it seems to wook cooler than the other but if the seek noise is really present....
perhaps a hitachi 7k250 or a seagate will give a better result?

Interesting is only one complaint so far. Perhaps it's all relative? But when he says the seek noise even with AAM enabled for Quiet the Samsung seeks are louder than his IBM/Hitachi, well, doesn't sound too good.

I should have my new system with the 0812C set up by the end of the week and I could let you know my opinion. However, I am enclosing it in a Zalman cooler in a 5.25" bay. If that Samsung is louder than my Maxtor D740X, I'll be very disappointed. The thing is why should the Samsung SATA drives be noisier than their PATA counterparts? Granted the SATA is enabled for Fast but he changed it to Quiet and it still was noisier than the IBM/Hiachi. So, what could be the reason these new Samsung SATA drives produce more seek noise at the same AAM setting than the PATA versions? Or do they?

Post by **MikeC** » Sun Jan 11, 2004 8:49 am

JVM wrote:
bluenote wrote:The thing is why should the Samsung SATA drives be noisier than their PATA counterparts? Granted the SATA is enabled for Fast but he changed it to Quiet and it still was noisier than the IBM/Hiachi. So, what could be the reason these new Samsung SATA drives produce more seek noise at the same AAM setting than the PATA versions? Or do they?

There is such thing called sample to sample variance. It happens with just about everything that makes noise. There is probably more variance with noise than other parameters because in the vast majority of components, noise is a derivative of other aspects of performance which take precedence.

In other words, a drive maker has production specs for all the individual parts that go into a drive, and these all have to pass within a certain tolerance. Dimensions and bearing toleraance and maybe weight distribution (in platters) are probably among the key parameters that are tested. If a drive is made with components that meet the various critera, then it should produce X amount of noise some high percentage of the time (say 95%?), But it is quite possible that certain combinations of parts (that still meet specs) may produce a bit more noise or vibration -- and still also pass final inspection or QA unless the noise is significantly out of the norm -- whatever tolerance the manufacturer uses for noise. It could well be that given the complexity of noise testing, not all HDDs that come off the assembly line are tested for noise, and the drive is assumed to meet the noise spec as long as all the other specs are met.

This is only an educated guess, but one based on listening to and using multiple samples of many same-model HDDs from several makers -- Seagate, Samsung & IBM/Hitachi.

cmcquistion · Post by **cmcquistion** » Sun Jan 11, 2004 9:10 am

My IBM/Hitachi drive is a PATA version and the Samsung 0812C is a SATA drive. The IBM/Hitachi Drive Feature Tool is capable of changing the AAM features on both of these drives. It is a really great tool.

I previously had a 160 GB/8 MB cache version of the SATA Samsung drive. It showed about the same amount of seek noise, which I was somewhat dissapointed in. For this reason, I decided to try out the 80 GB variant, since it has a single platter and should be quieter. It probably is a bit quieter. I couldn't do a side-by-side comparison of the 80 GB and 160 GB, because I had already sent off the 160 GB drive to a customer.

The IBM/Hitachi 180 GXP drive is probably the quietest IBM/Hitachi drive I've ever used, with AAM turned on (the 7K250 might be better, but I haven't tested them side-by-side.) This particular 180GXP drive is an 80GB model, which, I think, has a single platter. When I say that the Samsung's seek noise was equal to, or somewhat greater than the seek noise of the 180GXP, when both drives were set to their quietest AAM levels, I am not saying that the Samsung drive was incredibly loud or annoying. Overall, it is a quiet drive. It just isn't as quiet as I had hoped, and my comparison between these two drives is applicable only to these two drives.

I should mention that the Samsung 0812C's seek noise level was significantly lower (almost inaudible,) when the drive was just sitting on a piece of acoustic foam in the bottom of the case. When I mounted it, using rubber grommets, in the hard drive rack, I noticed much more seek noise. This is quite important for those considering purchasing this drive. This drive can be incredibly quiet, if mounted, using softer methods (foam mounting, for instance). I imagine that sorbothane mounting or elastic suspension mounting would also yield low noise levels.

I must reiterate my statement above.

cmcquistion wrote:Other mounting methods, such as sorbothane, foam, or elastic mounting, may produce different results. My results are applicable for rubber grommet mounting, specifically.

Those buyers that intend to mount these drives, using rubber grommets in cases such as the Antec SLK3700XXX or Evercase 4252, need to know that they won't get rock-bottom noise levels, by simply rubber-grommet mounting these drives. Other methods, however, can yield very much better results. In my case, I had to ship these drives, as part of complete computer systems, across the US, from Tennessee to California. I believe that rubber-grommet mounting was the best option available, for this reason. Had these systems been for my own, personal use, I would have used foam mounting or elastic suspension.

Post by **MikeC** » Sun Jan 11, 2004 9:19 am

There's no question that mounting methods affect HDD noise tremendously, and perhaps in different ways in different cases for different drives. Having said that, I would say that the case for elastic cord suspension is extremely strong for achieving the very best noise performance with any reasonably quiet drive in just about any decent case: Suspension mounting with softish elastic gives you the lowest noise possible from that drive, regardless of case. This does not apply to acoustically noisy drives like many Maxtors and almost all the WDs, which need both noise blocking (like with Smart Drive) AND decoupled mounting to achieve really low noise.

cmcquistion · Post by **cmcquistion** » Sun Jan 11, 2004 9:22 am

MikeC wrote:There's no question that mounting methods affect HDD noise tremendously, and perhaps in different ways in different cases for different drives. Having said that, I would say that the case for elastic cord suspension is extremely strong for achieving the very best noise performance with any reasonably quiet drive in just about any decent case: Suspension mounting with softish elastic gives you the lowest noise possible from that drive, regardless of case. This does not apply to acoustically noisy drives like many Maxtors and almost all the WDs, which need both noise blocking (like with Smart Drive) AND decoupled mounting to achieve really low noise.

I agree 100%

This is why I strongly prefer elastic mounting over any other method.

My deepest thanks, Mike, for writing your original Elastic Suspension article. That article changed the way I thought about quiet computers. Among other things, I'm using elastic, now, for fan suspension and fan decoupled mounting, using elastic and weather stripping. Suspending fans, with elastic, can make a great difference, when you can do it. Generally, you can't create an airtight seal, when elastic suspending fans, so the application is limited to those uses, which don't need an airtight seal. Hard drive cooling fans can be mounted this way and I've given serious thought to some of Zalman's (flower?) heatsinks that require a fan on a bracket. Those fans, I imagine, could be made even quieter, by suspending them with elastic, as opposed to mounting them with a rigid, vibration-conducting, arm. My decoupled mounting method, using foam weather stripping and elastic, I believe, is superior to EAR grommets. For one, it is cheaper. Secondly, transferred vibration is lowered. Third, there is a 'seal' between the fan and the case. With EAR grommets, there is a small gap, which is counter-productive, when negative case pressure is needed (to cool front hard drives, for example.)