Ugh.... Very Fustrated Newbie {Progress! 100 % completed!!!}

cmaples · Post by **cmaples** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 9:42 pm

First of all I want to say how great these forums are. However there is so much info. I can't make head or tails of it all. plus the search feature doesn't work very well so i'm having a hard time determining if someone else has answered my foolish questions. Sorry if you have already.

here goes,

I just upgraded my pc with,

intel D875PBZ board
p4 3.2
ATI raideon 9800xt
2 120gb seagate barracudas
2 gs ram

(basically i went to alienwares web page wrote down all the specs and order the parts online for half the price

I threw all this into my old ATX full tower case

Go to http://67.169.138.202 and click on the picture links to see my case and fans The red arrows indicate air flow direction

My hard drives overheated and my raid failed so i purchased and installed a bay cool III from pc power cooling. it has 1 80mm fan in the front of the case blowing air across the drives now they are cool to the touch.

according to Intel(R) Desktop Control Center my system is running at these temps under a full load.

CPU 68C
Sys zone 1 and 2 44C
intel HSF 5200 RPM
new VSF in the pic 1557 RPM

all of this when its only 75 deg far. in my room
the intel fan is so loud it keeps the wife up and when i close the case up and put the pc under any performance load i get temp. alarms on the cpu.

this summer it will easily get up to 90 deg F in my room

I'm looking for a solution. those fancy heat pipe coolers seem like they would work but i don't want something so heavy it might damage my board.

Please help me. I'm going to buy some ISODAMP or VersaDamp Grommets from e-a-r to help with the vibration noise but what should i put on my CPU? the stock fan heatsink is not adaquate in my case. I need more cooling power and WAY less noise. When i stop the intel HSF the system is quiet enough for my taste.

Could some one please recommend 3 or 4 heatsinks and fans? to help me narrow my search. Are there smaller heat pipe sinks that weigh less yet work equally well? I've heard great things about the zalman CNPS7000A-Cu will this keep my cpu out of the red and the wife in dreamland?

Thank you so much, I'm ready to pull my hair out. Your help is greatlyt appreciated.

Clint Maples

TheWesson · Post by **TheWesson** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 10:09 pm

First step: Attack your case. 44C is way too high. You're aiming to 30C. If you can get your case that much cooler, your CPU will be about that much cooler. If your heatsink is one of the temp-sensitive ones from Intel, that will also make the fan less fast (and loud.)

Cut things (like fan grills stamped into the case front and front bezels) until you have a pretty clear path for air to get in your PC and out again.

Tidy up cables so your bay cool can get air through your PC too. Hopefully it is getting air from the room?

A better heatsink with a good fan will help you some too. But you can probably get a *big* temp drop just by cutting as above.

O by the way your power supply is dumping its heat into the room and not into your case, right ... ?

the wesson

peacefulpc · Post by **peacefulpc** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 10:14 pm

omg...where to start!!

you have some extremely hot items in there, and not a great case to deal with that heat. i think the case is the first place to start - something with better cpu ventilation, like a fan adjacent to the processor.

i don't suppose there's a chance you could afford the zalman tnn case?
(>$1000)

short of that, you won't ever get quiet with those components, but you can prevent overheating with a better case and airflow.

i'll think more tomorrow,
good luck!

Wedge · Post by **Wedge** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 10:42 pm

LX-6A19
or
SLK3700AMB

lenny · Post by **lenny** » Wed Jun 09, 2004 10:43 pm

hi, cmaples

The Zalman TNN is overkill, IMHO

But I can suggest a few things.

1. The case
2. The CPU HSF
3. VSF = Vantec Stealth Fan? Replace with Panaflo. But this can be done later, after you attack the other problems.

Read the recommended parts list on the main site.

For the case, you can either remove the grills so that they're less restrictive, or you can just get another case. Once you've improved airflow, you can try reducing fan speed.

For CPU HSF, I highly recommend the Zalman CNPS7000 / CNPS7000A. Use the included fan mate to dial down the voltage. I'm running my P4 2.6 at the lowest setting.

You didn't mention the fan on the 9800XT. I have a 9800Pro and it sounds terrible. I replaced that with a Arctic Cooling VGA Silencer. I'm not sure if Rev 3 fits the 9800XT, you might want to check. Not only does it cool better with less noise than the stock cooler, it dumps the waste heat out of the case. A winner all around, in my books.

Good luck.

cmaples · Post by **cmaples** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 12:27 am

TheWesson wrote:
Cut things (like fan grills stamped into the case front and front bezels) until you have a pretty clear path for air to get in your PC and out again.

Tidy up cables so your bay cool can get air through your PC too. Hopefully it is getting air from the room?

O by the way your power supply is dumping its heat into the room and not into your case, right ... ?

the wesson

Sorry vsf= variable speed fan. i got it at compusa. it is supposed to vary depending on temp.

Yes the bay cool draws in room air and the PSU blows hot air out.

Thats a good idea about the cutting. I'll have to get a dremmel or something.

TheWesson · Post by **TheWesson** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 12:47 am

Take everything out of the case before dremeling the case of course, because of metal bits flying around.

Or never mind the dremel and use good-quality tin snips to snip fan grills etc w/o emptying the case.

Search for "Wiss snips" in this site's forums and you will find a very nice article on snips.

CompUsa also sells these things called "case nibblers" which a lot of people use. Slow but steady - they progress by punching little holes I think.

I used garden shears the first time on fan grills, which also worked.

...

The main thing I'm guessing you need is some front intake airway.

Some people attack the sides or bottom of the front bezel, to make 1" wide (2" or 3" or 4" long) holes that don't show too much.

Also as was already mentioned - I agree it'd be nice to have a hole in the case right by the CPU for exhaust. Even better to have a fan in that hole.

...

vsf - you are probably best off disabling the temp control somehow. If the sensor is at room temp (the fan is intaking), it will be pretty slow. or maybe you should swap the vsf to the case back for exhaust, where it will sense the temp of case air. At 44C I imagine it will be going fairly fast.

the wesson

maxxymus · Post by **maxxymus** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 1:55 am

1. Kill Fan Grills
2. Organize your cables... it's a real mess.. hide them behind the motherboard or something.. Just make sure not to reduce natural airflow.
3. Put VGA Silencer on Radeon.
4. Kill all intake fans.
5. Put better HSF on CPU. The stock one doesn't perform so well at all. Back in the days, I switched from stock to Thermalright AX478 and temps dropped around 10-12c.
6. You can cut bottom of case for improved airflow.

Waste of money that RAID cooling. If you just had improved airflow you wouldn't need it and would've saved on space and money.

Post by **Ralf Hutter** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 5:47 am

cmaples wrote:Thats a good idea about the cutting. I'll have to get a dremmel or something.

DON'T WASTE YOUR MONEY ON A DREMEL!!

For the money you spend a a Dremel you can buy a great case like the Evercase 4252, or the Antec 3700AMB 0r 3700BQE, or the Compucase 6A19, etc.

To reiterate what all of the above posters have already stated: Your case is your biggest problem. I wouldn't waste the time with your current case, it's very poorly designed and would take a lot of time and effort to make it even mediocre. Buy a new case and start from there.

1) New case.

2) Zalman 7000AlCu HSF for the CPU.

3) VGA Silencer for the vidcard.

4) One or two quiet 120mm case fans.

You're talking somewheres about $90-130 depending on which case you choose and you'll be a million times better off than you are now.

Whatever you do, don't waste your time adding dampening stuff and grommets to your existing setup, it'll do nothing other than waste money and potentially make your case even hotter than it already is.

burcakb · Post by **burcakb** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 8:36 am

As others have already pointed out, you're not going to get anything done with that case. It's definitely gotta go. I use a Sonata but wish I had a Antec 3700AMG. Airflow is everything.

With good airflow and tidy insides, sleeved or folded cables, etc. even with your current hardware you should be able to get your temps WAY down.

Getting everything quiet is a totally different endeavour.

I'd list your noise sources as 1: HSF, 2:PSU, 3:Radeon, 4:disks.

For HSF, I've tried both Thermalright SP97 (SP94 for P4) and Zalman 7000Cu. The Zalman works better in low airflow cases, the thermalright gives you more options. If you have really good airflow there are a lot of other cheaper (albeit slightly noisier) solutions.

For the PSU, that's a really hard problem. Let that rest for now. Going after the PSU needs the rest of your case to be settled IMO.

Radeon: Arctic Cooling VGA Silencer, as advised. The zalman cooler is another option but you already have a lot of heat producing hardware in there, so I'd say that would be risky

Disks. Decouple them. preferably suspend them. They may not be making much noise by themselves but the vibrations are incredibly annoying and you won't realise the magnitute until you've tried suspension.

There you have it. Your first todo: get a new case & HSF. Work on it. Then post once more. Let's tackle it step by step.

Btw. USE ARCTIC SILVER THERMAL COMPOUND!!!!! BIG BIG YES-YES

cmaples · Post by **cmaples** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 9:18 am

I was thinking about a new case. maybe that CM stacker. I found a buddy with a dremmel and i love to tinker so i'm gonna hack up my case first. I think I can stream line it. I'm Gonna take this PSU back to compusa. The cable and connectors are so intertwined i can't bundle them together. their twisted like a cat 5 cable. Ugh. I've got a few idea from all of your suggestions. You guys are awesome. Thanks again

cmaples · Post by **cmaples** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 9:24 am

OMG i only have 1 day left to return my PSU! Sorry but the picture links are going to be down for the rest of the day as i need to yank my power supply. Cheers!

Leto · Post by **Leto** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 10:12 am

How much does AS Thermal cream compare to the Zalman stuff you get with the CNPS7000 in terms of Celsius degrees.

And how much do you get? Enough to apply 10 heatsinks or what?

burcakb · Post by **burcakb** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 11:17 am

I've got the big tube AS3 and it looks like it's lasted a lifetime!

Let's see, I reinstalled the HS on Thor at least 10 times, 5 times for wotan, twice for the radeon, three applications for northbridge, liberal use for two friends computers and I still have some left.

cmaples, until I saw your case, I was advocating that with experience and careful thinking, any case could be made silent. But I really really see no hope for your case. It just wont do. No matter how much you dremel it. The design is wrong. I really see no way to improve airflow in there. Try a different case.

TheWesson · Post by **TheWesson** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 11:52 am

well look at it this way, you can try things out on a case that's destined for the scrap heap anyhow - and then do it right the first time on the expensive case.

For example, snipping holes merits some practice!

the wesson

cmaples · Post by **cmaples** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 12:01 pm

OK! Thanks to everyones great advice, i set out on a mission.

First I threw the damn dremmel down because it was useless against my steel case.

then I removed the old 3.5" drive bay that was under the cdroms.

Then i got some sheet metal snips and cut out 2 120Mmm holes in the front of the case

I then removed the PSU and completely cut out the back plate.

Using a piece of flat stock sheet metal i laid out the design for the psu and a 90 mm fan and cut out the piece and then punched holes for all the screws.

After checking the fit i then used self taping sheet metal screws and a drill to fasten the new plate over the old hole.

I also cut out a hole in the back plate directly above where the CPU sits and installed and 80mm fan. (nothing else would fit, infact the size fit so perfectly it is a friction fit with no screws holding it in.)

I bought new round ide cables for better air flow and took back my psu and got one with neater cables

(SIDE NOTE) Anatec powere supplies intertwine their power cables. makes cable management very dificult. took that shite back got a better designed one.

You can see all of this at http://67.169.138.202 then click on the before and after.

now i'm just waiting for my new zalman cpu cooler (the all copper one) and my panaflo fans

Oh yeah some stats. you can see the before temps in my first post.

CPU 62C
Sys zone 1 and 2 39C
intel HSF 2580 RPM
new Variable Speed Fan in the pic below the psu 1280 RPM

Major improvements. no more temperature alarms!

You guys were so helpfull Thank you so much: TheWesson, lenny, maxxymus, burcakb. Your help is much appreciated. Once i get all the new parts I'll organize my cables and post some pics and stats.

Thanks again!

Clint

cmaples · Post by **cmaples** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 12:09 pm

On a side note. The sheetmetal sheers(left and right cut), metal hole punch, drill bits, very large metal file, screws, flat hammer, dolly bar and a few other tools that I couldn't have done this without were all supplied by my dad who, it turns out, used to be a sheetmetal worker for 20yrs..Hmmm way to go dad. I had no idea, and we bonded. He was all kinds of excited to teach me something. It was really quite touching actually, But i digress, my point was i needed very specialized tools to do this stuff. and without them it would have been more practical to buy a new case then spend the money on the tools.

It was lots of fun though.

clint

burcakb · Post by **burcakb** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 2:13 pm

Clint, what can I say? WOW!!!!

Thats QUADRUPLE As for effort & imagination. MASSIVE APPLAUSE.

You've planned 2x120mm on the front. Please remember that ALL 120mm fans make noise at default voltages as they move huge amounts of air. You'll want to undervolt them all the way down.

You also need to check your case air pressure. Measure the low voltage 120mm against your exhausts. I think you'll end up with a positive pressure case. Theoretically that'll help you with dust buildup in the case but you can bet you'll have dust problems with 2 such huge holes at the front. You might start thinking about filters to keep things clean.

Side note on dremel: I also just got me a dremel and wasted several cutting disks trying to cut sheet metal. It seems the correct way is to first drill a hole then use a tungsten-carbide cutter with a stabilizing brace to "walk" your cutting design on the sheet. Be prepared for a lot of steel dust though.

Again, excellent effort. I'm sure the Zalman will beat your CPU temps senseless

TheWesson · Post by **TheWesson** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 4:19 pm

hey that's cool! Great on the dad-bonding, too

I am now convinced that snips are the way to go now myself, despite having never tried a dremel.

6C drop at CPU -- most excellent!

I believe going from 5200 RPM to 2580 RPM on the Intel heatsink fan should have reduced your noise quite a bit too!

The VSF fan by the CPU - 1280 RPM? Dang, that's slow. The 80mm fans I have get to around 1800 RPM before making noise I consider noticeable. Perhaps just replace that one with a fixed speed fan.

kudos

the wesson

misc:
- and now for some ducting!
- please ask if you need to know how to 7v fans for quietness. Or, a fan controller might be good.
- More openings in side of bezel to let air into 120mm front intakes..?

but ... niice ...

cmaples · Post by **cmaples** » Sun Jun 13, 2004 12:52 am

Wesson.... Yeah I bought a zalman simple fan controller and a 3 pin y. I'm hoping that will let me set the same speed for both fans and save me a few bucks. Yes! the bezel. I worked on it a bit but it was really late. I need to open it up more. How much do you think I should remove? I doubled the size of the bottom hole but my case sits on carpet which basically plugs that hole up. how many holes would you recommend and aprox. what size? 1"x3"?

Thanks Again, You guys Rock!

Clint

TheWesson · Post by **TheWesson** » Sun Jun 13, 2004 8:54 am

Hi Clint!

The more fan opening the better. Big gaping fan holes are terrible to look at, though, and can let out some noise.

About the bottom front bit - you can buy or make little feet for your case to keep the bottom front opening off the carpet. Or have a pedestal from old books or magazines, even. Or wooden things.

Anyhow can you pretty much open the sides of the front bezel where the 120mm intakes are? It will need some support at some points of course and don't cut away anything it needs to latch into the case. Or notch the front bezel sides along the length of the fans, perhaps. Something like that?

the wesson

shathal · Post by **shathal** » Sun Jun 13, 2004 9:04 am

Wiss Tin Snip are your friend.

(speaketh the proud owner of 2 big holes (1 front intake, one back).

TheWesson · Post by **TheWesson** » Sun Jun 13, 2004 12:57 pm

cmaples wrote:Wesson.... Yeah I bought a zalman simple fan controller and a 3 pin y. I'm hoping that will let me set the same speed for both fans and save me a few bucks. Yes! the bezel. I worked on it a bit but it was really late. I need to open it up more. How much do you think I should remove? I doubled the size of the bottom hole but my case sits on carpet which basically plugs that hole up. how many holes would you recommend and aprox. what size? 1"x3"?

Thanks Again, You guys Rock!

Clint

Look at the watts per channel rating on your fan controller. You can use Y-splitters to your heart's content as long as you do not exceed the given watts per channel.

Don't use Y-splitters to put very powerful or many fans on your mobo's fan headers - I think the limit on those is about 3 or 4 watts; one fan (if it's one of the really powerful ones) can sometimes exceed that rating.

watts = volts * amps. Volts is 12 of course, and amps are usually written on the fan somewhere.

the wesson

cmaples · Post by **cmaples** » Wed Jun 16, 2004 7:17 pm

If I under volt both of my 120mm panaflo fans to 5 volts do you think I'll be able to get under that limit?

Does this math sound right?

The input power at 12 volts is 2.16 amps according to http://www.directron.com/120l1a.html

2.16 = 12*N

divide both sides by 12 = .18 amps per fan
Thus-
7 volts * .18 amps = 1.26 watts
5 volts * .18 amps = 0.90 watts

So 2 120mm panaflo fans would draw 2.52 watts at 7 volts
Or 2 120mm panaflo fans would draw 1.80 watts at 5 volts

So with both fans connected to a 3 pin y and then to zalman simple fan controller which is rated at 6 watts or lower I could run them at 7 or 5 volts off of the "front fan" connector on my intel mobo without any problem! Right? I hope?

Clint

P.S. fans get here on friday

TheWesson · Post by **TheWesson** » Wed Jun 16, 2004 10:16 pm

cmaples wrote:If I under volt both of my 120mm panaflo fans to 5 volts do you think I'll be able to get under that limit?

Does this math sound right?

The input power at 12 volts is 2.16 amps according to http://www.directron.com/120l1a.html

2.16 = 12*N

divide both sides by 12 = .18 amps per fan
Thus-
7 volts * .18 amps = 1.26 watts
5 volts * .18 amps = 0.90 watts

So 2 120mm panaflo fans would draw 2.52 watts at 7 volts
Or 2 120mm panaflo fans would draw 1.80 watts at 5 volts

So with both fans connected to a 3 pin y and then to zalman simple fan controller which is rated at 6 watts or lower I could run them at 7 or 5 volts off of the "front fan" connector on my intel mobo without any problem! Right? I hope?

Clint

P.S. fans get here on friday

Yep that math is good - I assume you meant "2.16 watts." So yes you could put two 120mmL1A's on one mobo header (even at 12 volts, probably, though that's pushing it a bit.)

I believe a fan controller can usually withstand a bigger power drain than your mobo fan headers can. You'd just have to look at the rated watts per channel for your fan controller.

Looking forward to your next success!

the wesson

burcakb · Post by **burcakb** » Thu Jun 17, 2004 7:07 am

Hmmm, I'm not sure. That math assumes that the power draw of a fan remains constant whatever the voltage. My guess is that the fan would require disproportionately more amps to drive the motor at lower voltages.

Still I don't think the increase would be significant for your question. I mean you COULD have plugged just one 120x38 mm Nidec fan into a header (3.3A x 12V = 39.6 Watts !!!!!)

cmaples · Post by **cmaples** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 1:12 am

Hmm. something else. I repinned my 4 pin fans to run at 5 volts but my HD are getting too hot. I know how to pin them for 7 ( thanx to these forums) however the article talks about how 7 volts can be dangerous and goes on about how you have to draw so much extra yada yada yada. Can i just pin it for 7 volts? or do i have to worry about something.

P.S. Some EAR sales rep sent me a sample box of there products for free! I'll try em out and fill everyone in on what sized isodamps i used for what fans and drives.

cmaples · Post by **cmaples** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 11:47 pm

Finally its done!!! Check out the pics http://67.169.138.202 click on New after pics.

Thanx again for everyones help.

shathal · Post by **shathal** » Sat Jun 19, 2004 12:13 am

cmaples wrote:Hmm. something else. I repinned my 4 pin fans to run at 5 volts but my HD are getting too hot. I know how to pin them for 7 ( thanx to these forums) however the article talks about how 7 volts can be dangerous and goes on about how you have to draw so much extra yada yada yada. Can i just pin it for 7 volts? or do i have to worry about something.

P.S. Some EAR sales rep sent me a sample box of there products for free! I'll try em out and fill everyone in on what sized isodamps i used for what fans and drives.

Suggestion for 7V and "more control" - get a fan mate or even a multi-fan controller?

Ugh.... Very Fustrated Newbie {Progress! 100 % completed!!!}

Ugh.... Very Fustrated Newbie {Progress! 100 % completed!!!}

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