idle + 30C = Load ? no way! cpu heatsink problem.

dedogs · Post by **dedogs** » Thu Jul 14, 2005 10:30 am

Dear Geezers and Gals,

I have been living with an overheating nightmare for the last 3 months now.
Idle : 40C
Load: 71C

System Specs:
Enermax Noisetaker EG475P-VE SFMA 2.0 470W PSU
AMD Athlon(tm) 64 Processor 3200+(2.21GHz)
Thermalright XP-120 Heatsink
Epox EP-8KDA3J Motherboard
OCZ EL DDR PC-3200 Dual Channel Platinum Rev 2. 1GB
Seagate 200Gb SATA Hard Drive
3X Nexus 120mm fans
Thermaltake Tsunami Aluminium Case

From the Bios readings alone if the computer is left on for 10 minutes the CPU temperature is 63 degrees C.
When windows xp starts up the temp drops to 40 degrees C.
When a game is played the temp is 70 degrees C.
When Prime95 is run the temp gos up to 75 degrees C.

I have used articlean and artic silver 5 from Artic and I dropped 1 degree so am stumped what to do now.

The side of my case is even off otherwise the cpu raises 10 degrees C straight away.

I myself think it’s the nexus fan on the thernalright XP-120 not powerful enough but I have read great reviews on the thermalright XP-120 so maybe it’s the airflow in my case?

ALL ideas are welcomed!

Code: Select all

Run Prime95 to test Load tempurature.
_______________________
14/07/2005 16:27:05 - System FAN:1110, CPU FAN:1004, Power FAN:1110, System Temp:32, CPU Temp:40, VCORE:1617, VAGP:1504, Chipset(V):1584, +5V:5076, VDIMM:2704, BATT:3056, 5VSB:5076
14/07/2005 16:28:05 - System FAN:1125, CPU FAN:1016, Power FAN:1095, System Temp:32, CPU Temp:40, VCORE:1627, VAGP:1504, Chipset(V):1600, +5V:5076, VDIMM:2704, BATT:3056, 5VSB:5076
## Start Prime95
14/07/2005 16:29:05 - System FAN:1125, CPU FAN:1022, Power FAN:1102, System Temp:32, CPU Temp:55, VCORE:1715, VAGP:1504, Chipset(V):1600, +5V:5076, VDIMM:2704, BATT:3056, 5VSB:5049
14/07/2005 16:30:05 - System FAN:1125, CPU FAN:1016, Power FAN:1102, System Temp:32, CPU Temp:64, VCORE:1729, VAGP:1504, Chipset(V):1600, +5V:5076, VDIMM:2704, BATT:3056, 5VSB:5049
14/07/2005 16:31:05 - System FAN:1132, CPU FAN:1022, Power FAN:1102, System Temp:32, CPU Temp:71, VCORE:1734, VAGP:1504, Chipset(V):1600, +5V:5076, VDIMM:2704, BATT:3056, 5VSB:5049
## Stop Prime95
14/07/2005 16:32:05 - System FAN:1125, CPU FAN:1016, Power FAN:1117, System Temp:32, CPU Temp:61, VCORE:1632, VAGP:1504, Chipset(V):1600, +5V:5076, VDIMM:2704, BATT:3056, 5VSB:5076
14/07/2005 16:33:05 - System FAN:1125, CPU FAN:1022, Power FAN:1095, System Temp:32, CPU Temp:53, VCORE:1617, VAGP:1504, Chipset(V):1600, +5V:5076, VDIMM:2704, BATT:3056, 5VSB:5076
14/07/2005 16:34:05 - System FAN:1125, CPU FAN:1022, Power FAN:1095, System Temp:32, CPU Temp:42, VCORE:1617, VAGP:1504, Chipset(V):1600, +5V:5076, VDIMM:2704, BATT:3056, 5VSB:5076
14/07/2005 16:35:05 - System FAN:1125, CPU FAN:1022, Power FAN:1095, System Temp:32, CPU Temp:40, VCORE:1617, VAGP:1504, Chipset(V):1600, +5V:5076, VDIMM:2704, BATT:3056, 5VSB:5076

dedogs · Post by **dedogs** » Thu Jul 14, 2005 11:42 am

Sorry guys i forgot the image

here it is : http://www.peterhaines.f2s.com/nefn/case.html

OmegaZero · Post by **OmegaZero** » Thu Jul 14, 2005 11:54 am

I would start by (carefully!) giving the XP-120 a "finger test" while the system is on. If the processor is really 60C+, then it should be so hot you can grill a steak on it...

If I had to make a guess I would say you will find it only mildly warm, meaning that the heat is not transferring from the processor to the HS properly or the readings are incorrect.

Arctic Silver 5 has fairly detailed instructions for use - have you checked those out?

The XP-120 should work perfectly with a Nexus 120mm at 6V+. I have used this setup numerous times -it'll even keeps an over clocked 3.4GHz Prescott (+10%) cool if it is mounted correctly and case airflow is good.

Slidax · Post by **Slidax** » Thu Jul 14, 2005 3:06 pm

have you tried updating your bios. there is a slim chance the sensor is inaccurate

dfrost · Post by **dfrost** » Thu Jul 14, 2005 3:48 pm

Maybe your XP-120 is not making good contact with the CPU?

There have been complaints about flatness of that HS base, and the example I just purchased had edges distinctly higher then the center. I was disappointed, but half-expected it. An hour with some fine (320) to ultra fine (600) wet sandpaper on a sheet of glass flattened it nicely.

I'm using a Papst fan first, then I'll try a Nexus for comparison.

dedogs · Post by **dedogs** » Fri Jul 15, 2005 6:35 am

Thanks guys!

you have given me some great ideas.

I'm gona attach a floppy drive and update my bios then use the sandpaper trick or at least see if the heatsink is flat bottomed.

i just gota say i love you guys! giving up your free time to help others. If there were more people like you, the world would spin a whole lot better.

thanks

OmegaZero · Post by **OmegaZero** » Fri Jul 15, 2005 9:14 am

Not to disagree with my peers, but I would be cautious about sanding the heat sink or processor's heat spreader. I apologize for not having the time to find & link the exact discussion(s), but I am pretty sure I have read many discussions here at SPCR about lapping heat sinks and processors not necessarily being a good idea. Even at that, you are not guaranteed to see any improvement. If you sand unevenly or at an angle you could very well make the problem worse, cause the pressure from the clips to be uneven on the socket, etc. Before you start making permanent physical alterations, you may want to do a little troubleshooting.

As I suggested before, I would start by using your finger to see if the heat sink is hot (just don't burn yourself!). If your processor is really 60C+ you shouldn't even be able to touch the sink - you'll feel the heat radiating off of it before you even make contact. If the sink is really that hot, then there is no need to change anything about your mounting because the sink is doing its job. In this situation you should start looking at your airflow to see if there are any blockages or hot spots.

If the sink is not hot or only mildly warm, then you have a mounting problem or incorrect readings on the sensors. Try simply remounting the heat sink, being sure to follow all of the directions on Arctic Silver's website. Sometimes a little air bubble or something will get into the paste (even if you mount it correctly!) and stop the heat transfer from working properly.

As I said in my previous post, I use the XP-120 on all of my builds. All are Pentium 4s (MUCH hotter than your AMD), and all use a Nexus 120mm. I have never had to sand anything or alter any surfaces to achieve a load temperature of <50C. I have had to remount a time or two in order to get the HS sitting right in the paste and such.

Start with the easy, non-permanent stuff. If it doesn't work you can always sand it down later...

dedogs · Post by **dedogs** » Fri Jul 15, 2005 10:00 am

ok i will test for heat and do some more troubleshooting. Why this has to happen to me i dont know.

i have flashed my bios with the lastest version and the temps as reported from the bios are exactly the same.

here gos melting my finger off lol
i will be safe dont worrie

dedogs · Post by **dedogs** » Fri Jul 15, 2005 11:44 am

I've tested with my hand for the heat from the cpu and i cant feel that much heat.

on the same page as my case i have uploaded pictures of the heatsink and cpu when taken apart could you have a look and tell me if the thermal compond worked?

here it is : http://www.peterhaines.f2s.com/nefn/case.html

Post by **MikeC** » Fri Jul 15, 2005 12:35 pm

Totally agree with OmegaZero -- DON"T SAND ANYTHING!! You can only make it worse unless you have a whole lot of "handy" experience.

My immediate thought is that your motherboard temp reporting system is way off. That HS is way too efficent and that CPU way too cool for such temps to be happening.

Your finger test confirms that the HS is not getting warm at all. The pics of the HS base and CPU show that they were definitely making contact, though that central smudge looks a bit odd -- I am guessing you must have touched it when you pulled it off. If this is not the case, it could be that the heat spreader on your CPU is concave and the center is not making good contact with the HS base. In which case, you might want to exchange the CPU. But I've never heard of this being so serious.

Is there any instability in the system? Does the exhaust air from the PSU or case fan feel hot?

If the answers to the above are negative, then I'd suggest that there's nothing wrong, and you should just turn the temp monitoring off & relax.

There are 2 thermal sensors in both A64 and P4 CPUs. The first is a rough approximation of the casing temp, the second is a fail-safe device that triggers CPU shutdown when the core temp reaches 125C (or something like that). I've had experience with Soltek boards that did not access the first sensor but did access the second. Temp readings went up to >70s and got me freaked but I quickly realized the CPU wasn't really hot at all...

OmegaZero · Post by **OmegaZero** » Fri Jul 15, 2005 1:42 pm

I've had a look at the pics, and the first thing I noticed was the smudge in the center. My best guess is that it is either a finger print or an air pocket. It doesn't really matter which, as both would kill heat transfer. Having that happen in the center of the contact point between the processor and the heat sink (right over the core) would make it function as if there were practically no heat sink at all.

Not to be repetitive, but I would say that your next step should be to clean the processor and HS off and remount them. Again, pay close attention to the mounting instructions from Arctic Silver's website to be sure that you get good contact and no air gets trapped in the paste.

Once you have done this, have another look/listen/feel and see what is going on. MikeC mentioned checking the case exhaust - that is a good idea, as is checking around the case in general for extreme heat sources. Also, if you are really daring you can feel the motherboard area around the CPU socket to see if it is really hot. Again, if the CPU is really 60C+ it is going to be like touching a hot stove...

If the motherboard doesn't seem like it's sizzling (warm is ok, if it is too hot to touch then you have a problem) then I would agree with Mike C that the temperature sensors are just off. Such things are not uncommon. If the system runs stable and nothing inside seems ridiculously hot I would be inclined to just forget about it.

SebRad · Post by **SebRad** » Fri Jul 15, 2005 2:24 pm

Hi, I can see that sort of difference between idle and load temps with my system, at idle the CPU (diode) is typically quite close to the "case" temp. At full load with fans turned down it can be 30°C above case temp and the case temp goes up a bit too. However I think my CPU is hotter than yours and the heat sink is less effective so I'd expect your difference to be less. As your case temp doesn't change idle to load I think your case airflow is fine.
The other day I decided to clean the dust out of my Zalman 7000, I went for a very through job. I removed it from the PC, removed the fan and clip arrangement and washed it with soapy water and a scabbing brush

I'm pretty sure it was then clean

I then carefully put it back together with arctic silver 5 and the temps were ~5°C worse! I thought I knew about getting AS5 applied right so I left it a few days / thermal cycles to "cure" like its supposed to need, no better. Humm maybe I put too much so I took it apart and rearranged what was there into a thinner layer, looked OK. Fired it back up and when MBM got loaded it showed CPU (diode) temp of 70°C and rising

I hit the power and shut it down. I had another go, this time with more AS5, and it was similar to my first, post cleaning, attempt. After a few days it was no better and for want of a better idea I had a go with generic white paste. (Artic Cooling’s I think) It was much the same as the AS5 and by now I was some what bemused. After a while I decided to have another go with the AS5, I had been cleaning the CPU and HS each time but this time I was extra through. I also took extra care with the application on the CPU and rubbed a very sparing amount in to the HS base. I seam to have gotten it right this time as the temps are back where they were before I started

Moral 1: If it ain’t broke don’t fix it!
I’m not a novice and think I know what I’m doing and had taken trouble so I think
Moral 2: AS5 is difficult to get the best out of.
Whether your CPU with a heat-spread and hence much large area makes the application less important or whether the larger area makes it harder for the heatsink to squeeze the AS5 to the optimum thickness or if the 2 balance I wouldn’t like to say.
To get back to your original problem I’m in agreement with others, don’t do anything permanent before exploring all other options. As you say your heatsink isn’t getting particularly hot then I’d suggest a reseating as first thing to try. Having looked at your pics I think you may had too much AS5 but I'm not sure I trust my own advice anymore. I’d now recommend Artic Silver Ceramic as it’s supposed to be just as good as AS5 and much easier / more tolerant to apply.
Hope this helps, Seb

dedogs · Post by **dedogs** » Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:17 pm

Thankyou greatly for your replys!

after reading the artic article on compound removal i have realised that remenants must be left on the heatsink or/and the cpu.

i also applyed the thermal compound to the heatsink and the cpu before putting them together and thus introducing air pockets into the gap :/

im going to clean up both with some arti clean 1 and 2, then hope for the best and follow the guidlines.

from what i can remember the stock fan that came with the AMD processor worked far better than i have got the xp-120 to.

my processor had a thermal pad used when attaching the AMD stock heatsinnk.
i the cleaned the cpu with a citrus cleaner from overclock.co.uk and used artic silver 5 with the xp-120.
then i cleaned the cpu and xp-120 with articlean 1 and 2 before reaplying the artic silver.

hopefully i can undo the damage i have done to my poor system

You learn from your mistakes.

i'll keep you posted -- thanks all, you've been delicious.
if there is anything i can do to repay ya dont hesitate to ask

dedogs · Post by **dedogs** » Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:29 pm

Ow yeah....

my system never locks up and is very stable just doing normal photo editing and sound production.

when i start playing Battlefeild 2 if the temp gos up to much about 71C the system gos totally blank?

its still on because the monitor does not go to standby and the fans are still running but the whole computer is not responding?

i have to manual shutdown before i can use it again.

You say the AMD has 2 sensors inside? is there anyway it will report them to me or is it the winbond chip that does it for me?

Definatly the last time i buy an Epox board anyhow.

dedogs · Post by **dedogs** » Sat Jul 16, 2005 6:55 am

I dropped 5C by redoing the heatsink.

i just used ClockGen to change the voltage from 1.5 (1.66 real) down to 1.3 (1.4 real) now the cpu max temp is 54

Its running at 39C idle now

I can even put the side of the case on now!!!

hopefully ClockGen will get promotted more because its saved my life and comp.

thanks for your time guys you have been great helps.

l8r

OmegaZero · Post by **OmegaZero** » Sat Jul 16, 2005 7:22 pm

Glad to hear you got it all sorted out

Be sure to turn your computer off and let it cool down completely a few times in the next week or so to break in the AS5. You will see your temps drop another degree or two as the Arctic Silver "settles"...

dedogs · Post by **dedogs** » Sun Jul 17, 2005 7:13 am

I will do

If anyone else is reading this post with hot cpu?

then you can also try RMClock or Crystalcpuid if clockgen is not supported by your cpu/chipset.

http://www.cpuid.org/clockgen.php
http://cpu.rightmark.org/products/rmclock.shtml
http://crystalmark.info/download-e.html

An article about the software : http://www.silentpcreview.com/article231-page1.html