New metallic TIM from TherMax Korea: HiFlux TIM HF-60110BT

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Slaugh
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New metallic TIM from TherMax Korea: HiFlux TIM HF-60110BT

Post by Slaugh » Mon Oct 17, 2005 12:54 am

There's a new thermal compound on the market: the HiFlux TIM HF-60110BT. It's made by TherMax Korea and it's supposed to beat AS5 in thermal conductivity. The HiFlux TIM comes as a thin metal sheet (low melt alloys) that you apply on the CPU... It seems pretty good on paper... However, I see a problem:
In order to get the TherMax to flow, you have to run the CPU up to 65ºC. Once this is done, the material is set and you achieve consistent results at all temperatures
65ºC is very high for any Athlon64... My Athlon64 never (or barely) reaches 50ºC at full load... Maybe a few hours of CPUburn would help to melt the product on an Athlon64... For those Prescott "powerplants", it shouldn't be a problem... :)


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StarfishChris
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Re: New metallic TIM from TherMax Korea: HiFlux TIM HF-60110

Post by StarfishChris » Mon Oct 17, 2005 1:59 am

In order to get the TherMax to flow, you have to run the CPU up to 65ºC. Once this is done, the material is set and you achieve consistent results at all temperatures
I believe 65° is the maximum operating temperature for 64s. Mine shuts down by then (system hangs). The only processor I would ever use this for is a Prescott - too dangerous with any other processor, even an Athlon XP.

Correction: 65° for all cores except Clawhammer/Sledgehammer, which are 70°.
Last edited by StarfishChris on Mon Oct 17, 2005 2:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

dibek
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Post by dibek » Mon Oct 17, 2005 2:01 am

If you really watn it, you could probably stop the cpu fan with your finger and wait till the temp goes to 65-70 :wink:

dibek
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Post by dibek » Mon Oct 17, 2005 2:25 am

I believe 65° is the maximum operating temperature for 64s.
I didn't know that.

scaryduck
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Post by scaryduck » Mon Oct 17, 2005 3:43 am

Should be fine on Northwood too; my 2.8C goes up to 70C when loaded and it hasn't stopped working yet. (Yet.)

Edit: but it's an Abit, so it's probably only 55C or so.

Erssa
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Post by Erssa » Mon Oct 17, 2005 4:24 am

My palomino athlon 1700+ idles around 60-63 degrees and goes upto 69 in load. Crappy heatsink with a crappy 40mm fan (fanmated to 6v). It's been running like this for 2 years now. No stability issues. People are too scared of temps imo...

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Post by JimX » Mon Oct 17, 2005 5:46 am

There's a test at http://www.overclockers.com/articles1268/. It seems to be working.

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Devonavar
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Post by Devonavar » Mon Oct 17, 2005 10:30 am

Maybe I'm missing something here, but if you can't get your CPU that hot, why do you need TIM?

Slaugh
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Post by Slaugh » Tue Oct 18, 2005 3:35 am

Erssa wrote:My palomino athlon 1700+ idles around 60-63 degrees and goes upto 69 in load. Crappy heatsink with a crappy 40mm fan (fanmated to 6v). It's been running like this for 2 years now. No stability issues. People are too scared of temps imo...
Athlon XP's have a critical temperature of 95ºC according to AMD, which is far from the 65ºC melting point of this product. In practice, an Athlon XP would probably crash or become unstable reaching the high 70's-80ºC. My Palomino (1900+) was idling at around 50ºC and could easily reach 65ºC at full load with the stock cooler. Try to get the same temperatures with an Athlon64 and your computer would probably hang or start acting very strangely... 65ºC is the critical temperature for an Athlon64 (70ºC for S754 CPU's).

With a Pentium IV, it's a different story. Theoretically, it's impossible to overheat the CPU because of the SpeedStep technology... A Pentium IV starts to throttle at around 70ºC (the CPU speed decreases to avoid overheating). I saw a video where a Pentium IV kept working after the heatsink was totally removed, but the system became "extremely" slow...

This stuff will definitely work for Pentium IV's (especially the Prescotts), it should also work with Athlon XP's... But I would never try this on my Athlon64... I'm pretty happy with the performance of my AS5 right now, and this one doesn't need to reach a high temperature to be melted... However, There's a good point about this product: it's a sheet that you apply and not a paste that you spread, so you're always sure to put the right amount of TIM on your CPU...

Mats
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Post by Mats » Tue Oct 18, 2005 6:54 am

Actually, the max temp for newer A64E is individual, and may times something like 55 - 57 degrees.
Here's a good link with some info.
Here is the program for reading MaxTCase.

I don't really see this as a problem, that temperature is the max for continous work. Going above 65 degrees once just for letting the compound flow doesn't scare me off. Or go for an Opteron instead, they have higher temps in general.

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Post by Devonavar » Tue Oct 18, 2005 11:00 am

If you read through the thread that Mats linked to, you'll find that that number is what AMD guarantees as the maximum stable temperature for the heatspreader casing. This is not the same as the 95 degree temp that Slaugh mentioned for Athlon XPs. XPs don't have heatspreaders, so the numbers are in on way comparable.

As far as I can tell, running above the max. casing temp shouldn't harm your CPU in the short term; it just won't be guaranteed stable, and it may void your warranty.

But, you still haven't answered my question, or the OP's question:

OP: How do you manage to get it above 65 degrees in the first place?

Me: What's the point of buying special thermal compound if it doesn't go this high?

Mats
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Post by Mats » Wed Oct 19, 2005 12:29 pm

Devonavar wrote:What's the point of buying special thermal compound if it doesn't go this high?
To get an optimal contact between the two surfaces. The lid/IHS and the heatsink gets soldered (don't get me wrong!) together, although I certainly don't mean that the heatsink will stay on by itself after that temp rise. Even if your CPU never goes beyond 40 degrees you would see a big difference after you've followed that procedure. If it works at all, that is! :?

I don't think it's that strange, but I'm very curious how good it works compared to the competitors.

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Post by Straker » Wed Oct 19, 2005 6:14 pm

Devonavar wrote:OP: How do you manage to get it above 65 degrees in the first place?
Me: What's the point of buying special thermal compound if it doesn't go this high?
...if it hasn't melted in place yet, it probably won't work very well, and so your CPU should hit 65 degrees pretty quick. if it doesn't get that hot, then it's obviously working pretty well even without being melted, was still easier to apply than regular TIM and then you can probably reuse it.
sort of backwards really, like asking why one would need a fan for their heatsink if the heatsink never gets hotter than the CPU. :D

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Post by Tibors » Wed Oct 19, 2005 10:19 pm

Devonavar wrote:OP: How do you manage to get it above 65 degrees in the first place?
Me: What's the point of buying special thermal compound if it doesn't go this high?
Let's ask Devonavar's question a bit stronger. Maybe then you all will start understanding what he is trying to point out.

What is the point of wasting money on some supercharged termal compound if your CPU won't get to 65°C when using the generic thermal paste that came with your heatsink (or toothpaste).

Slaugh
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Post by Slaugh » Wed Oct 19, 2005 10:36 pm

That 65°C is a recommended temperature to assure adequate flow into all surface asperities of the CPU die or heatspreader. As Straker said, if the contact between this newly applied metal sheet and the CPU die/heatspreader isn't good, the temperature will quickly rise to 65°C. At this temperature, the product is supposed to melt, resulting in lower temperatures afterward...

There are other LMA that need lower temperatures to melt (as low as 10°C). Some of them are actually highly corrosive or toxic, so they're not suitable for TIM application. Here's a technical paper about the ones used for TIM applications (with TherMax Korea as one of the references):

Performance, Reliability, and Approaches Using a Low Melt Alloy as a Thermal Interface Material


These two paragraphs summarize everything without being too technical:
LMA alloys as a thermal interface material offer superior thermal performance due to their high thermal conductivities and low contact resistance, resulting from excellent surface wetting. Reworkability, ease of handling, and a lack of cure make this attractive in a high volume setting.

The various failure mechanisms which have plagued the past and present LMA products will be mitigated by applying a multidisciplinary approach to the challenge.
Tibor and Devonavar have good points here. If this product is only reducing your CPU temperature by only a few degrees, at the risk of voiding your warranty or ruining the CPU, then it's definitely not recommended. Maybe we should wait for more reviews on this stuff, or wait until trustful companies like Arctic Silver add something similar to their product lines... As I said in the first post, it looks good on paper, but after reading those technical papers, it became obvious that these products could be risky for what they really give.
Last edited by Slaugh on Wed Oct 19, 2005 11:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Ryan
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Post by Ryan » Wed Oct 19, 2005 10:52 pm

Would it be possible to apply it, put on speedfan and prim95, monitor temperatures on load, then lower speeds gradulay until it hit 65 or so degrees, then stop the prime95 and raise the fan speed? No damage to fans. Easily controlled.

StarfishChris
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Post by StarfishChris » Thu Oct 20, 2005 2:01 am

I think my question has been missed in all of this: what happens if your CPU cannot reach 65° at all? I wouldn't risk it with my A64, and in reality it stops a few degrees before that point - this would simply be unsuitable.

Now if it was 55°...

Mats
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Post by Mats » Thu Oct 20, 2005 4:26 am

Guess we'll have to wait and see, again.
But right now I think this product is more suitable for those who easily get to 65 degrees, like my friends P4. It stays around 65 in BIOS. :shock:

But if ou really want it for your A64E, then try to find out a way to heat it up while the computer is turned off in a safe way!

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Post by Straker » Sat Oct 22, 2005 7:14 pm

StarfishChris wrote:I think my question has been missed in all of this: what happens if your CPU cannot reach 65° at all?
Believe I already answered you, unless your CPU runs that cool without a heatsink. :shock:

I read that review a few days ago so I don't remember clearly, but to be fair, I think he did mention that the results didn't look as good using a real CPU as when he used a heat gun to melt it. Not sure if I'd be too comfortable using something that inherently limits its own performance... that is, it'd be a lot nicer if it melted 20 degrees lower, and so had more than one chance to get it right.

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Post by StarfishChris » Sun Oct 23, 2005 2:27 am

Straker wrote:
StarfishChris wrote:I think my question has been missed in all of this: what happens if your CPU cannot reach 65° at all?
Believe I already answered you, unless your CPU runs that cool without a heatsink. :shock:
Then I'm not willing to try it with a max Tcase of 57°!

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Post by Straker » Sun Oct 23, 2005 4:26 pm

Also, if you can't reach 65C without a heatsink, what do you need any TIM at all for? :D

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Post by StarfishChris » Sun Oct 23, 2005 5:50 pm

Straker wrote:Also, if you can't reach 65C without a heatsink, what do you need any TIM at all for? :D
So that it doesn't reach 60° and shut down or die...

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