Ninja cooling/mounting problem??

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pbecker
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Ninja cooling/mounting problem??

Post by pbecker » Sat Mar 17, 2007 3:15 pm

Hi all,

I have a problem with my newly installed Scythe Ninja Rev. B, it seems. The temps of my Intel Core 2 Duo E6300 (stock speed) with the case open are around 44-45C idle, 69-72C load. The load temp rises to around 80C when the case is closed. I am using Intel's TAT application for temperature monitoring and CPU loading. The case is an Antec NSK3400 with the standard TriCool fan swapped for a 120mm Nexus @ 5V, and I have also mounted a 120mm Nexus @ 5V on the Ninja itself. Judging from other people's experiences, this ought to be enough.

I have cut the Socket 775 mounting bracket a bit so it does not interfere with resistors and other stuff around the CPU socket (the motherboard is a Gigabyte 965GM-S2).

What on Earth might be wrong? The temps are, in my book, WAY too high to be caused by minor issues such as too little or too much thermal paste (I am using a thin layer of Arctic Silver 5). Please feel free to ask for more information if need be - I'm getting desperate so I will try almost anything!

Thanks beforehand!

Felger Carbon
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Re: Ninja cooling/mounting problem??

Post by Felger Carbon » Sat Mar 17, 2007 4:41 pm

pbecker wrote:I'm getting desperate so I will try almost anything!
Are you willing to provide enough voltage for the fans to flippin' start? According to the recommended fans page, the Nexus 120 doesn't even start until 5.5V! Geez! Give the fans a fighting chance of working, willya? :lol:

finaldeathh
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Post by finaldeathh » Sat Mar 17, 2007 6:00 pm

The Ninja Rev B is shit at cooling.

You'd have to do a mounting mod to give more pressure. Even then, it's still not up to par with other highend coolers.

merlyn
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Post by merlyn » Sat Mar 17, 2007 6:13 pm

what's your ambient? have you checked to see if the c2d's heatspreader is flat? what's your gpu? have you tried blocking the rear intake as it looks like it could short-circuit the air flow path? I assume from your hsf mod there is enough pressure? what's your cabling like, does it interfere with airflow? some pic's in the gallery would be nice. based on your config and limited details i'd say your temps aren't that bad although if putting the case on raises the temps it would suggest that airflow is the issue.
agree with Felger, bump the nexus' up to 7v, the change in sound level is imperceptible.

hexen
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Post by hexen » Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:08 pm

finaldeathh wrote:The Ninja Rev B is shit at cooling.

You'd have to do a mounting mod to give more pressure. Even then, it's still not up to par with other highend coolers.
??
the ninja is recomended here on SPCR probably more than anything else as far as heatsinks go

and what are the 'other highend coolers' ?

dragmor
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Post by dragmor » Sun Mar 18, 2007 6:55 pm

pbecker,

Your temp numbers are roughly the same as my E4300.

finaldeathh wrote:The Ninja Rev B is shit at cooling.

You'd have to do a mounting mod to give more pressure. Even then, it's still not up to par with other highend coolers.
For intel's 775 socket I agree with you. With the supplied mounting mechanism the Ninja performs about the same as the stock cooler (with the supplied fan at 12v). It also has the hassle that most motherboard have caps in the way so you need to take a couple of mm of the bracket.

On 939 and AM2 the ninja shows a good temperature advantage, on 775 it just doesnt seem to have the mounting pressure.

J. Sparrow
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Post by J. Sparrow » Mon Mar 19, 2007 6:15 am

dragmor wrote:On 939 and AM2 the ninja shows a good temperature advantage, on 775 it just doesnt seem to have the mounting pressure.
Where did you got this info from? I've read someone was complaining about the Ninja B AMD performance on this forum, but I've never seen anything conclusive on that topic.

edit: forgot the important bit.
Last edited by J. Sparrow on Mon Mar 19, 2007 10:41 am, edited 2 times in total.

Maelwys
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Post by Maelwys » Mon Mar 19, 2007 9:52 am

dragmor wrote:For intel's 775 socket I agree with you. With the supplied mounting mechanism the Ninja performs about the same as the stock cooler (with the supplied fan at 12v). It also has the hassle that most motherboard have caps in the way so you need to take a couple of mm of the bracket.
I have to disagree. Mine is mounted on an Asus P5B with no modding, no fan, and a small bit of AS5 on a C2D E6600. My idle temps are around 33C with a 45C load. Ambient is usually 21-23C. Granted, I'm not overclocking, and I have a Nexus 120mm on the exhaust directly behind the Ninja, so there is some airflow through there. But overall I'm extremely pleased with the Ninja... I certainly didn't expect to see those temps with a passive heatsink.

hexen
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Post by hexen » Mon Mar 19, 2007 3:32 pm

Maelwys wrote: I have to disagree. Mine is mounted on an Asus P5B with no modding, no fan, and a small bit of AS5 on a C2D E6600. My idle temps are around 33C with a 45C load. Ambient is usually 21-23C. Granted, I'm not overclocking, and I have a Nexus 120mm on the exhaust directly behind the Ninja, so there is some airflow through there. But overall I'm extremely pleased with the Ninja... I certainly didn't expect to see those temps with a passive heatsink.
Maelwys,
your current setup is the EXACT system i plan to build (e6600 on a p5b with just one 120mm nexus on exhaust)
couple of questions:
-what case and powersupply r u using
-is the 120mm nexus your only fan in the computer (other than the powersupply)
-what kind of overall noise r u getting (dBA if possible)

Maelwys
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Post by Maelwys » Mon Mar 19, 2007 3:43 pm

Hex: I'm running an Antec Solo with a Crucial 620HX. The Nexus 120mm is the only case fan in the system (the other two are the power supply and video card fans). As for overall noise levels, I don't have a way to measure dBA, but the Nexus is the only thing that I hear at idle, and I can only hear that when the room is absolutely silent. For reference, my computer is on my desk, about 1m from my head, and sits in a corner.

Here's a link to my build specs here on SPCR. I posted in the System Advice forum initially and got some good feedback. Plus, I posted some temps:

viewtopic.php?t=38908

dragmor
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Post by dragmor » Mon Mar 19, 2007 4:13 pm

J. Sparrow wrote:
dragmor wrote:On 939 and AM2 the ninja shows a good temperature advantage, on 775 it just doesnt seem to have the mounting pressure.
Where did you got this info from? I've read someone was complaining about the Ninja B AMD performance on this forum, but I've never seen anything conclusive on that topic.

edit: forgot the important bit.
I'm basing it from experience, the Ninja B on AM2 seems to cool as well as the original Ninja or 9500. I've done 6 builds on AM2 (Sempron 3200+ to 4600+X2) since November and played around a bit with different heatsinks. The C rise seems to be close for all of them (and better than the stock heatpipe cooler). Even with the fan at 7v.

The Sempron showed the least difference, but since it puts out bugger all heat thats to be expected.

dragmor
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Post by dragmor » Mon Mar 19, 2007 4:21 pm

Maelwys wrote:
dragmor wrote:For intel's 775 socket I agree with you. With the supplied mounting mechanism the Ninja performs about the same as the stock cooler (with the supplied fan at 12v). It also has the hassle that most motherboard have caps in the way so you need to take a couple of mm of the bracket.
I have to disagree. Mine is mounted on an Asus P5B with no modding, no fan, and a small bit of AS5 on a C2D E6600. My idle temps are around 33C with a 45C load. Ambient is usually 21-23C. Granted, I'm not overclocking, and I have a Nexus 120mm on the exhaust directly behind the Ninja, so there is some airflow through there. But overall I'm extremely pleased with the Ninja... I certainly didn't expect to see those temps with a passive heatsink.
I'm assuming your numbers arent from TAT since they are so low. I've got an E4300 on a Gigabyte DQ6, when everything is stock (1.8ghz 1.325v), ambients ~28c. I get a C rise of ~27c. TAT readings of 42c idle 69c load. When I put a 9500 the C rise drops to ~15c. The CPU is mounted as best as the stock mounting allows.

Pretty much all gigabyte boards require grinding the bracket, and the Ninja B just doesnt seem as solid on 775 as it does on AM2.

I'm also not convinced that TAT is reading the E4300 temps correctly. But that shouldnt effect the C rise.

Maelwys
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Post by Maelwys » Mon Mar 19, 2007 5:56 pm

dragmor: You're right, I didn't use TAT for my tests, so I downloaded and redid my tests using TAT. The numbers are slightly different, but not as much as you might think.

Core 1 Idle: 35C
Core 2 Idle: 33C

Core 1 Load: 46C
Core 2 Load: 44C

Ambient is still 21C. Of other note is that my core temps dropped from load average to idle average in roughly 6 seconds once the load was removed from the chip. All in all, I still have to champion the Scythe Ninja for this build.

vortex222
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Post by vortex222 » Tue Mar 20, 2007 3:11 pm

i finaly ordered my scyth ninjaB today (and an HR-03) but I also read on the NCIX.COM forums of someone having a problem on there 775 system with presure. I got the impression the bracket was changed only recently.

I run a 939 system (asus a8n sli) so il see what its like and post it here.

prostuff1

Post by prostuff1 » Tue Mar 20, 2007 3:16 pm

Like another perosn in this thread I have an E4300 with Rev B Ninja. My temps are usually about 40-43 ideal and 55-58 load. I have the original fan just plugged in, no undervolting; nothing.

As far as i am concerned the stock mounting of the Rev B Ninja sucks. The push pin things are great for easy of use but are not really all that secure as far as i am concerned. Don't get me wrong the push pins hold the heat sink on but i don't think they apply enough pressure. When I feel like it i might take it apart and go the full monty by lapping the CPU and heat sink along with modding the mounting system.

vortex222
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Post by vortex222 » Tue Mar 20, 2007 3:50 pm

if i have to il do that to mine, so im not worried about it. Always fun to spend an afternoon with some sandpaper and a dremal.

hexen
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Post by hexen » Tue Mar 20, 2007 5:09 pm

what does the ninja rev b 775 mod entail?
is there a guide anywhere?

badbadtz560
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Post by badbadtz560 » Tue Mar 20, 2007 7:40 pm

since nobody has addressed this yet.. i have to ask if you checked the contact between the heatsink and cpu yet? it's a tedious task, but definately important... and often the #1 cause for an overheating cpu

incase that was already checked for.. Thermalright makes these lovely socket converter brackets that you guys can try out.. It seems that the 478 setup might be more sturdy than the 775 setup w/ the ninja ... you could try products like these:
http://www.jab-tech.com/Thermalright-LG ... -2570.html

o2brew
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Post by o2brew » Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:13 am

I can confirm that the Ninja rev B mounting can be a problem on 775 systems. With my 680i board out of the case last night I noticed that it was running a bit hot, close to 50C at idle. Pushing down lightly on the top of the Ninja the temps immediately dropped significantly. Down to 38C or so.

I've ordered the Scythe universal retention kit, hopefully the old mounting mechanism will hold it down a little tighter. I'll have to use rubber washers to keep the backplate from crushing a couple capacitors on the back, but I think it will work better overall.

Previously the system was keeping things much cooler. I don't know if a few uninstalls/reinstalls of the heatsink has caused the problem or what.

thejamppa
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Post by thejamppa » Wed Mar 21, 2007 12:09 pm

We obiously new Ninja Rev C. Let's hope Scythe will listen.

Mescalero
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Post by Mescalero » Wed Mar 21, 2007 5:33 pm

This sucks. I was planning to buy a Ninja in a short while and there's no really good alternative for use as a passive heatsink on a C2D.

oakdad
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Post by oakdad » Wed Mar 21, 2007 6:59 pm

I am thinking I get one of these
http://www.jab-tech.com/product.php?productid=3254
and don't forget the bolt through kit
http://www.jab-tech.com/Thermalright-LG ... -3605.html
they tested well also
http://www.silentpcreview.com/article290-page5.html

P.S. I would love to see this heatsink test updated for the C2Ds.

cmthomson
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Post by cmthomson » Wed Mar 21, 2007 7:23 pm

It has been repeatedly and consistently documented here on SPCR that the Ninja Rev B 775 does not cool nearly as well as the original Ninja. The consensus among a large number of knowlegeable posters is that the springs on the 775 push pin mounting attachment provide too little pressure.

This is independent of the issue of the mounting bracket bumping into the motherboard capacitors, which is easily fixed with a little filing.

One well documented way around the pressure issue is to use the universal mounting kit with the 939 mounting and the copper spacer. This produces results approximately as good as the original Ninja.

We don't need a Rev C. We need the original design.

ronrem
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Post by ronrem » Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:29 am

o2brew wrote:I can confirm that the Ninja rev B mounting can be a problem on 775 systems. With my 680i board out of the case last night I noticed that it was running a bit hot, close to 50C at idle. Pushing down lightly on the top of the Ninja the temps immediately dropped significantly. Down to 38C or so.

I've ordered the Scythe universal retention kit, hopefully the old mounting mechanism will hold it down a little tighter. I'll have to use rubber washers to keep the backplate from crushing a couple capacitors on the back, but I think it will work better overall.

Previously the system was keeping things much cooler. I don't know if a few uninstalls/reinstalls of the heatsink has caused the problem or what.
Bingo.

The funky pushpin hold-downs are a cheesy way to go,too often a big HS seems to lean a bit,resulting in a slight gap at the top of the chip and poor contact. Some wire from the heatsink to the case might add support and reduce the tilt effect.
It's ironic Intel made such a sweet CPU but there's a funky mount frame and dished heatspreaders (sometimes) so the cool/quiet is there only as a broken promise.

thejamppa
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Post by thejamppa » Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:26 am

cmthomson wrote: We don't need a Rev C. We need the original design.
Well, Original design was better, but it doesn't fit for AM2. Best thing would be if they could include old mounting mechanism in comming versions and work AM2 similar mounting mechanism with means bolts thru MB.

That is why we actually need rev C. For AM2 users, even failure rate with their current AM2 clip is not bad, the clip it self is big and can cause installation problems. I'd like to see AM2 users having similar mounting mechanism as old Ninja's K8 system was.

chienpourri
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Post by chienpourri » Thu Mar 22, 2007 6:18 am

o2brew wrote:I've ordered the Scythe universal retention kit, hopefully the old mounting mechanism will hold it down a little tighter. I'll have to use rubber washers to keep the backplate from crushing a couple capacitors on the back, but I think it will work better overall.
Please, let us know of your experience with this kit! I am deeply interested in knowing if it does work for socket 775 and Ninja Rev. B

Erssa
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Re: Ninja cooling/mounting problem??

Post by Erssa » Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:04 pm

pbecker wrote:Hi all,

I have a problem with my newly installed Scythe Ninja Rev. B, it seems. The temps of my Intel Core 2 Duo E6300 (stock speed) with the case open are around 44-45C idle, 69-72C load. The load temp rises to around 80C when the case is closed. I am using Intel's TAT application for temperature monitoring and CPU loading. The case is an Antec NSK3400 with the standard TriCool fan swapped for a 120mm Nexus @ 5V, and I have also mounted a 120mm Nexus @ 5V on the Ninja itself. Judging from other people's experiences, this ought to be enough.
Temps seem relatively high. I too have NSK3400 with (a softmounted) 12cm Nexus, my nexus is running at 750rpm and it's pretty quiet (doesn't even start at 5v, unless I help it with my finger). My x2 3800+ is cooled by a Scythe Ninja Rev. B (passive) and it idles around at cool 44c. My case is also choking for air, because I have pretty much blocked the front intake. Considering how similar E6300 should be (thermally) to my x2 3800+ I think you should have a lower temps, because a) you probably have better case airflow b) you are using a cpu fan.

Erssa
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Post by Erssa » Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:14 pm

Maelwys wrote:Hex: I'm running an Antec Solo with a Crucial 620HX.

....

Here's a link to my build specs here on SPCR. I posted in the System Advice forum initially and got some good feedback. Plus, I posted some temps:

viewtopic.php?t=38908
Btw, it's Corsair, not Crucial. I noticed you called it Crucial many times in that system advice thread as well. Just wanted to help you break the pattern ;).

J. Sparrow
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Post by J. Sparrow » Thu Mar 22, 2007 4:35 pm

cmthomson wrote:It has been repeatedly and consistently documented here on SPCR that the Ninja Rev B 775 does not cool nearly as well as the original Ninja. The consensus among a large number of knowlegeable posters is that the springs on the 775 push pin mounting attachment provide too little pressure.
Then it may be about time to attach a post scriptum to the current review...

Jumper
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Post by Jumper » Thu Mar 22, 2007 4:50 pm

In my SLK3800B, with a rear exaust Tricool on 'Low', and the Scythe fan on the Ninja Rev B @ 60% in Speedfan (~850RPM) I get:

Idle - ~37C
Load - ~55C
Ambient ~ 22C

This is with a Toledo X2-4200, TDP reported by the chip as 65W, at 1.35V and 2.2ghz.

To be honest I am very very disappointed - the stock HSF had *exactly* the same temps.

I am going to pull and remount when I put my HR-05 on the NB this weekend. I had a lot of trouble getting the Ninja clipped on with the mobo still in the case, so it is possible the paste application took a big beating. Will also check flatness of Ninja and X2 IHS.

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