Scythe Ninja Copper @ Jabtech.com

Cooling Processors quietly

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climber109
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Scythe Ninja Copper @ Jabtech.com

Post by climber109 » Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:10 am

I just noticed the Scythe Ninja Copper Edition is now on sale at jabtech.com.

http://www.jab-tech.com/Scythe-NINJA-Co ... -4065.html

Holy crap, it weighs a freakin kilogram! Not including a fan!

Looks like they are shipping it with the 800RPM slipstream fan.

Edit: Just noticed it is currently out of stock. Jabtech doesn't actually have them yet.

JazzJackRabbit
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Post by JazzJackRabbit » Sun Jan 13, 2008 11:58 am

A little too expensive and a little too heavy for an impulse buy. I'll wait for spcr review.

s_xero
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Post by s_xero » Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:26 pm

Indeed, but I really like the looks!

I don't know if the weight is that bad. My 650g Rev. B Ninja has no problem beeing carried around, while I didn't even bother to use a bolt-through.

Obviously that's a good Idea for this one.. But serious won't you be stupid if you used the Cu-version with a fan? :lol:

mcoleg
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Post by mcoleg » Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:43 pm

cooper absorbs the heat better than aluminum but it doesn't dissipate the heat as well as aluminum. so, actually, it might need a fan more than the usual version (at least at higher heat-loads).

chahahc
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Post by chahahc » Sun Jan 13, 2008 11:14 pm

mcoleg wrote:cooper absorbs the heat better than aluminum but it doesn't dissipate the heat as well as aluminum.
I personally would have to disagree with this. Logically, wouldn't a metal with higher thermal conductivity also dissipate more heat than a metal with a lower thermal conductivity? I believe that copper is a better thermal conductor AND dissipater than aluminum. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong though.

walle
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Post by walle » Mon Jan 14, 2008 12:19 am

s_xero wrote:.. But serious won't you be stupid if you used the Cu-version with a fan? :lol:
Soon to be guilty as charged I'm affraid :lol:

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Post by Bluefront » Mon Jan 14, 2008 12:29 am

Actually....the two metals dissipate heat to the air at the same rate, depending on surface area. Copper conducts much better, and due to it's density, is able to absorb better.....so the story goes. :)

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Post by Jipa » Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:07 am

AFAIK Aluminum indeed dissipates heat better than copper (I think CNPS7000Al-Cu was better than Cu), so that's main purpose is to be BLING.

About the price and weight. Normal Ninja costs 47 € here, which is around $70, so the price of the copper version is nothing to cry about. And about the weight... Well there was this 980 gr Cooler Master Hyper 6 already in the early 2004's.

So my verdict is that while being useless in terms of cooling power, it's also nothing special... Great :D

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Post by Tzupy » Mon Jan 14, 2008 8:24 am

Aluminium and copper AFAIK dissipate heat into the air about the same. And 7000 AlCU wasn't better than 7000 Cu also AFAIK.
But there are some special paints that can improve the metal-to-air heat transfer. I've seen those on Zalman Al products, but I'm not sure about Cu ones.

dhanson865
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Post by dhanson865 » Mon Jan 14, 2008 8:30 am

Copper absorbs heat quicker.

Aluminum is less dense (the misnomer is to say it weighs less).

If you use the same weight of copper in a HS design and the same weight of Aluminum you get better dissipation from the aluminum because of increased surface area. Increased surface area for less weight is why you see copper bases with aluminum fins. For the average CPU there is no reason to pay the weight penalty of copper.


Since the Copper Ninja weighs more it will cool the CPU better as it will draw more heat away from the CPU. Assuming it has the same size and shape the Copper Ninja will be hotter than the Aluminum Ninja. Working better means more heat in the Copper less heat in the CPU.

If you don't mind the weight buy the Copper, just don't put your bare fingers on it if you have a Prescott under it. :o
Last edited by dhanson865 on Mon Jan 14, 2008 8:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

walle
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Post by walle » Mon Jan 14, 2008 8:33 am

Well, we know that aluminium absorbs heat faster than copper, we also know that when it’s removed from the heat source it will cool faster since it’s less dense than copper, right, however, in a computer CPU (with its steady heat input) copper would be better because it’s better at keeping heat going into and out of the metal (much as it is with electricity). I admit, there are many variables that needs to be taken into account here and I don’t claim to know them all, and I’m sure that someone else could shed some additional light on this one, moving on though, the amount of heat dissipated is dependant on the surface area of the material (which was pointed out by Bluefront) In case of the aluminium and copper versions they appear to have about the same surface area, but with minor differences such as the spacing between the heat pipes and what not (sorry). Anyhow; since the temperature drop from the die to the surface of the heatsink is darn important, I would say that an all out copper version should (in theory) perform better since the copper transfers the heat better. By how much; is another question, if the performance increase is worth the additional monopoly money we all use, is also that; another question. I would lie though; if I said that I don’t like some bling bling from time to time and this one I just needed to have.

Look; it’s just not any heatsink mind you gents, it’s the frikking anniversary model! :D


Edit: seriously, I'm not trying to defend the purchase here :wink:
Last edited by walle on Mon Jan 14, 2008 10:09 am, edited 2 times in total.

Luminair
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Post by Luminair » Mon Jan 14, 2008 9:15 am

They've improved the heat pipe distribution like they did with the Mini. But being all copper is excessive :)

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Post by djkest » Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:39 am

Wow, I see a lot of different theories here. The truth, as I understand it, is since aluminum is less dense then copper, it cools off faster, but it also can't "hold" heat as well as copper can. It is about 3x cheaper than copper, and has a lower thermal coefficient. Copper: 401 W·m−1·K−1 Aluminum: 237 W·m−1·K−1. There are a lot of factors that come into play here, but this should perform better at a substantial increase in cost and weight. The redistribution of the pipes also will help improve things. One thing is for sure though, with an all copper heatsink it will definately feel warmer.

tehfire
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Post by tehfire » Mon Jan 14, 2008 9:52 pm

According to techpowerup, the copper ninja comes with a backplate. Seems that Scythe has finally answered our prayers...on anything that weighs over a kilo.

chahahc
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Post by chahahc » Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:06 am

It also looks like the lga775 mounting system for this version is a 478 adaptation to the backplate. So theoretically you could use any heat sink with a 478 mounting system on lga775 sockets with this kit....theoretically 8). Although I wouldn't really know what use that would be. :lol:

Grafter67
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Post by Grafter67 » Mon Jan 21, 2008 8:28 am

LGA775 Back-Plate Mounting Mechanism
This model includes a back-plate mounting mechanism for the socket LGA775 to increase the contact pressure and secure the mounting to compensate the weight of all copper model
from http://www.scythe-eu.com/en/products/cp ... ja-cu.html

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Post by JimX » Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:32 am

Wow, this means that the TR 775 kit that is already installed on my E6400-P5E is ready for the Cu Ninja! My SI-120 has already seen 4 board changes, it's time to rest. :D And it's concave...

The copper Ninja costs €59 here (preorder), minus 10-15% discount.

omgwtf
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Post by omgwtf » Thu Jan 24, 2008 1:48 pm

I think Ninja Cooper isn't more better to "normal" Ninja ;)

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Post by MikeC » Thu Jan 24, 2008 3:26 pm

Hey guys, pls stop with the myth-continuations!

copper vs. aluminum has been discussed ad nauseum over the years. The bottom line is simple: heat coefficient or conductivity tells us how quickly a material transfers heat. Transfers. It matter not a single iota which "direction" the heat is going, it simply moves faster through copper, mainly because of its higher density.

If you look at a table of heat conductivity for different materials, you'll see that copper rates nearly twice as high as aluminum.

Now this doesn't mean copper is automatically "better" for a heatsink than aluminum. Design, the actual heat source, and airflow all come into play. What you can say is that as you increase the heat, the amount of material (ie, heatinks fin surface area) and the airflow, the difference between copper and aluminum will become increasingly apparent.

IMO, with the Ninja, the copper version's advantage will probably be small on our test rig. It would be more useful for a hotter CPU than our Pentium D950 (still pretty hot)... perhaps under warmer ambient and lower airflow conditions.
Last edited by MikeC on Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

omgwtf
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Post by omgwtf » Thu Jan 24, 2008 4:39 pm

Hi Mike!

What do you think about passive mode with Ninja Cooper? I'm not 100% sure, but IMO copper is better in active mode only...
pls stop with the myth-continuations!
edit: Ups, sorry :D

hexen
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Post by hexen » Fri Jan 25, 2008 6:08 pm

the new ninja has been reviewed by ProClockers:
http://www.proclockers.com/review.php?id=312

long story short: the thermalright ultra120 beat it. (although the tests were done with a Noctua PF12 at 12 volts)

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Post by yamahaSHO » Fri Jan 25, 2008 8:14 pm

hexen wrote:the new ninja has been reviewed by ProClockers:
http://www.proclockers.com/review.php?id=312

long story short: the thermalright ultra120 beat it. (although the tests were done with a Noctua PF12 at 12 volts)
They said it was built exactly like the aluminum version over the Ninja. I think they overlooked the spacing on the heat pipes that are more like the Minja than the Original Ninja.

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Post by cloneman » Fri Jan 25, 2008 9:23 pm

MikeC wrote: If you look at a table of heat conductivity for different materials, you'll see that copper rates nearly twice as high as aluminum.
I want a HSF made of diamond now 8).

EDIT: Is it that far fetched to have a small layer of diamond on the base?

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Post by MikeC » Fri Jan 25, 2008 11:16 pm

cloneman wrote:
MikeC wrote: If you look at a table of heat conductivity for different materials, you'll see that copper rates nearly twice as high as aluminum.
I want a HSF made of diamond now 8).

EDIT: Is it that far fetched to have a small layer of diamond on the base?
Yeah, it's farfetched. :lol:

An engineer who worked with a very successful low cost aftermarket HSF company told me years ago when CPU cores were bare (ie, pre-P4 & A64) that copper bases really did make a difference back then. It would improve an otherwise all-aluminum HS by several degrees at full tilt with the CPUs of the day, because the copper would reduce the thermal resistance between the bare die and the fins. But when copper heatspreaders were introduced to CPUs, the advantage of the copper based disappeared -- the heatspreader effectively doing the job of the copper base. His PoV then was that copper based heatsinks were all about marketing. By the time of the >100W Prescotts, I lost touch with him and I don't know what he'd think now.

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Post by Felger Carbon » Sat Jan 26, 2008 12:56 am

MikeC wrote:...when copper heatspreaders were introduced to CPUs, the advantage of the copper based disappeared -- the heatspreader effectively doing the job of the copper base.
Mike, if the "heatspreader" was in fact a heatspreader, that would be true. Alas, the IHS cover is a tenth of an inch (or less) of copper. Its real purpose is to keep the CPU from cracking when the HSF is installed.

In an imaginary world, the very small die contacts the back of the IHS cover. The heat enters this thin copper cover, executes a right turn, and spreads the heat equally over the top surface of the IHS. This is fantasy.

In the real world, the top of the IHS and the bottom of the HSF (where all the weight of the Ninja is concentrated - cough) together form a metal block. The heat spreads in a hemispherical fashion from the small die (almost a point source in comparison to the composite metal block's ~1.4 inch square area). If the HSF metal block is aluminum, the thermal resistance of the path goes up considerably.

One consequence of this is that test fixtures using a heat source that's the same area as the IHS (the ones used by Frostytech, for instance) bypass this hemispherical heat path, and assumes that the IHS really is a heatspreader - so it doesn't matter that the heat source is the same area as the IHS.

I wish the top of the IHS were really a heatspreader in the sense that all the CPU's heat is spread uniformly on the top area of the IHS. It would make cooling a lot simpler, and a lot more effective.

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Post by MikeC » Sat Jan 26, 2008 10:11 am

Felger Carbon wrote:
MikeC wrote:...when copper heatspreaders were introduced to CPUs, the advantage of the copper base disappeared -- the heatspreader effectively doing the job of the copper base.
Mike, if the "heatspreader" was in fact a heatspreader, that would be true. Alas, the IHS cover is a tenth of an inch (or less) of copper. Its real purpose is to keep the CPU from cracking when the HSF is installed.
That's certainly one of them, agreed, and it was very welcome by most DIY enthusiasts back then. But you take my comment out of context -- the advantage of the copper base disappeared in the context of a budget cooler less than half the size of today's high performance coolers, dealing with <60W processors where the additional cost of a copper base was considerable in contrast to the small cooling gain (IRRC, he mentioned "a couple of degrees at best".)
In an imaginary world, the very small die contacts the back of the IHS cover. The heat enters this thin copper cover, executes a right turn, and spreads the heat equally over the top surface of the IHS. This is fantasy.

In the real world, the top of the IHS and the bottom of the HSF (where all the weight of the Ninja is concentrated - cough) together form a metal block. The heat spreads in a hemispherical fashion from the small die (almost a point source in comparison to the composite metal block's ~1.4 inch square area). If the HSF metal block is aluminum, the thermal resistance of the path goes up considerably.
What right turn? Heat doesn't "know" direction, it's not airflow -- it simply moves towards the path of least resistance.

Also, the die is bigger than you think -- see this pic of a bare C2D processor (from Legit Reviews):
Image

Finally, I did point out that the engineers comments referred back to the first P4s with heatspreaders; these were not the Preshots that got Intel into deep trouble, they started at less than 60W TDP. To quote myself -- "I don't know what he'd think now"; with hotter CPUs, his analysis wouldn't necessarily stay the same.

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Post by continuum » Sat Jan 26, 2008 9:00 pm

Wow... a full-sized Ninja in copper? o_0 Craaazy...

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Post by thejamppa » Sun Jan 27, 2008 8:44 am

continuum wrote:Wow... a full-sized Ninja in copper? o_0 Craaazy...
Makes you drool as the same time goose pumps of the fear for having over 1 kilo's hanging onto mobo... ^.~

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Post by yamahaSHO » Sun Jan 27, 2008 11:00 am

thejamppa wrote:
continuum wrote:Wow... a full-sized Ninja in copper? o_0 Craaazy...
Makes you drool as the same time goose pumps of the fear for having over 1 kilo's hanging onto mobo... ^.~
I felt the same about the Ultra 120 Extreme, so I made a support bracket.

Image

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Post by walle » Sun Jan 27, 2008 12:39 pm

Update: :evil:

I have still not received my copper puppy, have e-mailed the store but have yet to receive a response. I don’t know what’s going on here because I’ve ordered from them before with zero problems and deliveries has always been real fast. I had hoped to be able to show you this one installed, up and running giving you some feedback, such as; look, my motherboard is still intact, but with the rate this is going I begin to wonder if I have to actually telephone them as well as check with the post office again, perhaps I should have done so earlier but I’ve been busy and weeks do go by fast.

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