Ninja Worries

figment · Post by **figment** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 8:14 am

I'm currently gearing up for a June/July build. Most of the parts are easy enough to decide on, but I've been unable to come to any solid conclusions about what sort of HSF to use. First some info:

CPU: Intel Q9450
Overclock: Moderate Only. FSB to 300-333MHz
Usage: (Network/Multi-threaded) Development, Mild Gaming, Standard Usage (in order of importance and time spent)
Cooling Style: Low volume air for quietness. No water. No TEC. (otherwise I'd be posting on Tom's since that seems to be the answer to all problems there).
Other Build Details: No SLI/Crossfire. Passively cooled GPU. Antec P182 case. Motherboard options include (but not limited to) GA-P35-DS4 and friends, Abit IP35E/Pro

Now, since I've been lurking about here for a few months, I already know the answer to all my problems is the Scythe Ninja Plus Rev B with the TR bolt-through kit. However, looking at installations and reviews, I have some worries:

It's really huge.
It's not easy to install.
It may interfere with the Northbridge heatsink.
It will almost certainly overhang the memory slots.

Now, I know the size shouldn't be an issue, but it would force a focus on good cabling inside the case. What I'm really worried about is interference with the motherboard and RAM slots. This will effectively prevent me from buying DIMMs with any cooling solution beyond a simple heat spreader while also decreasing the airflow to them. Because this is a development box, I am unwilling to sacrifice any memory slots to my CPU cooler.
The leading contenders for replacing the Ninja would be:

Zerotherm NV120 (Some complaints about it being loud)
Zerotherm BTF90 (Lower ability to cool the CPU)
Ninja Mini (Might not clear Northbridge or nearby heatsinks)
Scythe Mine
Arctic Cooling Freezer 7 (I've had good luck with my Freezer64...)

I'm not even considering the TRUE. Frankly, I don't need that much dissipation. The Ninja seems to fit everything I want, but I'd rather not sacrifice my choice of motherboard and memory to save a degree or two of cooling. I'm very interested in hearing some comforting words about the Ninja or some other suggestions.

JazzJackRabbit · Post by **JazzJackRabbit** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 8:52 am

Ha, your setup is very similar to what I have/what I plan to upgrade to. Currently I've got Abit IP35Pro and Ninja Rev.B. I've got TR bolt through kit in the closet, but I'm currently not using it, I will use it though when I upgrade to 9450 though (OC'ed and lapped of course).

To answer some of your question, on Abit IP35Pro Ninja does not interfere with NB or with memory (I've got all 4 slots in use). Using TR bolt through kit won't change anything, so you're safe there as well. I suppose you could also use active cooling on your ram, but I'm not sure about compatibility there, that would depend on particular memory cooling kit you will be using. However, I really think it's not necessary, I've got my memory clocked at 894MHz and stable with no active cooling, I don't even have fan on my Ninja, just one exhaust fan in the case.

figment · Post by **figment** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 9:06 am

If you put a fan on the ninja, would it hang over the RAM?

Some of this is just me being overly paranoid. In all reality, with the one or two fans in the upper corner of the P182, I may be able to run the Ninja without its own fan, but I'd like the option if the CPU gets warm.

As for the memory, I'm not interested in active cooling, I was thinking more about the taller heatsinks which some of the DIMMS are using such as the Corsair XMS2, Patriot Viper and OCZ Reaper . Apparently the Ninja makes using these impossible on some boards.

Alex · Post by **Alex** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 11:32 am

I would certainly get the TRUE for your setup.

CPU: Intel Q9450 (95W TDP)
Overclock: Moderate Only. FSB to 300-333MHz (=>95+W TDP)

I run my E6750 (65W TDP) with a TRUE.

If you want silence get the best cooling there is and put a slow fan on it (if possible).

figment · Post by **figment** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 11:59 am

While I'm not questioning the TRUE's dominance in cooling and silence, I don't know if it's worth spending US$20+fan (US$35?) to drop my core temps by 4-6 degrees at load.

If I was planning a severe overclock, then the TRUE's greater abilities would be worth more. The Q9450 has an FSB of 266. Taking this to 300 or even 333 is a pretty moderate overclock. Even the BTF90 should handle that without problems.

The Ninja seemed like a good choice because at US$38 it is the best performer in its price bracket. What would I gain by using the TRUE? Is the Ninja insufficient for a Q9450? Will the temperature difference have some tangible benefits?

I'm not trying to be antagonistic. I'm really curious, and to be honest, now that you've said it, I'm questioning myself again and I'll see if the extra US$35 is a possibility in the budget.

figment · Post by **figment** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 12:37 pm

What about the Xigmatek HDT-S1283? It seems to perform on a similar level to the TRUE, but for less.

Why hasn't SPCR done a review yet?

Downsides: Like the Ninja, I'd need to get the bolt-through kit. Like the TRUE, I'd need to get a fan.

Alex · Post by **Alex** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 1:33 pm

figment wrote:The Ninja seemed like a good choice because at US$38 it is the best performer in its price bracket. What would I gain by using the TRUE? Is the Ninja insufficient for a Q9450? Will the temperature difference have some tangible benefits?

I'm not trying to be antagonistic. I'm really curious, and to be honest, now that you've said it, I'm questioning myself again and I'll see if the extra US$35 is a possibility in the budget.

OK, I just thought you were a silent enthusiast. Sorry. Ninja is probably OK.

My TRUE is above my northbridge heatsink (= no conflict for me), and the bolt through is good and relatively easy to mount.
My heatsink fan is ~1.5 cm away from my memory sticks and itÂ´s above them as well.

I agree the TRUE is not cheap but it is also very high quality.
It is up to you if it is worth the money.
I would say it depends on if your other components are silent (hard disc, PSU, case fans etc.). If they aren't, the Ninja will probably be a good choice.

I spent a lot less for my CPU (a dual core only) than you do so I don't know if your priorities are right. I would rather get the E8400 (dual core) and maybe upgrade again in about 3 years if necessary.
But the decision is yours.

figment · Post by **figment** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 1:50 pm

Let's say I'm a silence fan.

I'm not going to go to any length to create a silent build. It's all about the cost/benefit analysis to me. I value silence more than most people, but not so much that it is my only concern. For instance, a TEC will beat either the TRUE or the Ninja, but I'm not going to pay that.

That said, I've picked the Q9450 with its increased price because I know I will see an improvement with the quad core and the power savings over a year or two are more than enough to pay for the difference between a Q6600 and a Q9450.

However, even as I wrote it, I realized that if I'm willing to bump my budget US$80-$100 for a more efficient CPU, then a US$35 (or less) bump for a good cooler I don't have to worry about isn't really as much of a problem as I was making it out to be.

I haven't locked down all the other components (things can change a bit in 4 months) but currently the other important components look like they'll be:

PSU: Corsair 520HX
HD: Samsung Spinpoint 500GB
Video: 8800GT w/ Accelero S1

So far as I can tell, the build should be very quiet, but I'm not going so far as to suspend the HD or add extra damping. I may or may not use the top fan of the P182.

Does this change or help the recommendation at all? I've found the TRUE for US$55, putting it just less than US$12 over the Ninja assuming I'll get a (8/12)00RPM Slipstream for either and a bolt-through kit for the Ninja.

When I ask myself if $12 is worth it, I have to admit the suggestion is definitely a valid one. [/list]

Alex · Post by **Alex** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 2:46 pm

figment wrote:I haven't locked down all the other components (things can change a bit in 4 months) but currently the other important components look like they'll be:

PSU: Corsair 520HX

HD: Samsung Spinpoint 500GB

Video: 8800GT w/ Accelero S1
So far as I can tell, the build should be very quiet, but I'm not going so far as to suspend the HD or add extra damping. I may or may not use the top fan of the P182.

Does this change or help the recommendation at all? I've found the TRUE for US$55, putting it just less than US$12 over the Ninja assuming I'll get a (8/12)00RPM Slipstream for either and a bolt-through kit for the Ninja.

When I ask myself if $12 is worth it, I have to admit the suggestion is definitely a valid one.

With those components I think a TRUE is the better choice, but I might be wrong.

Keep your eyes open for WD6400AAKS reviews also. It might be silent.
viewtopic.php?t=46649
If you do not suspend your hard disc, the WD discs lower vibration (than Samsung) might help keep noise down.

A comparison between TRUE and your Xigmatech.
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cooler ... tek_9.html
Note TRUE is cooler even when it's fan is running slower (but different fan brands I think).

I have to admit Xigmatech has an innovative and interesting design.

Tzupy · Post by **Tzupy** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 8:36 am

@figment: AFAIK the Q9450 has a FSB of 333 and 8x multiplier, not 266 and 10x.
The 'standard' overclocking would be from 333 x 8 = 2,664 to 400 x 8 = 3,200.
My advice: if you can afford the CPU, then get the TRUE too. Just make sure you check the base quality before buying.

figment · Post by **figment** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 9:05 am

Wow.

How did I screw that up. Of course the FSB is 333. I think I copied the old numbers from the Q6600.

Thanks for the fix.

figment · Post by **figment** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 9:36 am

Tzupy wrote:Just make sure you check the base quality before buying.

Base quality?

Are you referring to the reported concavity of the TRUE's base? How exactly would I check that before buying? I don't think I know of any stores nearby which stock TRUEs and as far as I've heard, this is a "design feature" and I should expect all of them to have it.

derekva · Post by **derekva** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:40 pm

And here I thought you were concerned with stealthy Japanese assassins.

I ran (for quite a while) a Ninja in passive mode on an overclocked Opteron 175 running on an NForce 4 Ultra board and had no issues with cooling (in a P150 chassis) nor with interference with chipset cooling or RAM slots. Of course, this is all highly subjective (e.g. need to buy a motherboard with sufficient clearance around the CPU socket). The biggest concern should be clearance around the RAM slots as you can work around northbridge clearance issues quite easily. Just get a Thermalright HR-05 SLI or HR-05 IFX/SLI to offset your northbridge cooling. That's what I had to do to get around the XP90 on my current system.

Either way, unless you are overclocking, you probably won't need to worry about overheating the RAM (even if all you have is a heat spreader).

-D

figment · Post by **figment** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 7:38 pm

I'm not so worried about RAM cooling. I won't be overclocking the RAM so it won't be overheating. I don't know of any DDR2-800 modules which actually need anything beyond the the most rudimentary heat-spreader at stock speeds.

However, I had been considering the Corsair 2x2GB DHX modules, but they come with heat spreaders which include a "fringe" that extends above the PCB and may not fit beneath a fan on the Ninja.

Post by **NeilBlanchard** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 9:19 pm

Hello,

Can you post a link to this RAM, please? Pictures will help.

figment · Post by **figment** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 9:43 pm

It's nothing exotic:

CORSAIR XMS2 DHX DDR2-800 2x2GB

Corsair and Patriot have modules that use this design. I've heard good things about these DHX modules specifically.

Tzupy · Post by **Tzupy** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 4:55 am

AFAIK the base quality issues with the first batches of the TRUE weren't a 'design feature', but a manufacturing flaw.
Latest batches shouldn't have this issue, but it's wiser to check for it. IIRC the first batches of the Ultra-120 had this issue too.

Post by **NeilBlanchard** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 4:59 am

Hello,

Here's a picture of my original Ninja with some Mushkin RAM w/ standard heat spreaders on them:

The closest one just sneeks in under the clips. So with the Corsair RAM you showed, the closest RAM slot would have to be outside of the Ninja's footprint.

figment · Post by **figment** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 5:25 am

Thanks for the photo.

So my fears were true, I'd probably need to go passive with the Ninja if I used the Corsair RAM (or Mushkin, which was also an option)

Post by **NeilBlanchard** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 5:30 am

Hello,

The Ninja is very flexible: you can put the fan on any of the four sides and the fan can be "slid" up, and you can use different sized fans, as well. Or, you can use a duct to the case fan(s) -- or it can just be cooled by air moving in the case, in almost any direction.

Wibla · Post by **Wibla** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 5:30 am

You could just get a TRUE, the price increase is worth it, and noise levels wont exactly be higher.

figment · Post by **figment** » Sat Mar 01, 2008 6:35 am

This would be a Ninja in the upper corner of a P182. The only real options are:

Fan on "east" side (possibly blocking memory slots)
Fan on "south" side (possibly hitting northbridge heatsink and requiring the top vent to be used)
Passive, using nearby back & top fans as "pull" fans.

The TRUE has become a real possibility. It looks like it might just be simpler.

FartingBob · Post by **FartingBob** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 12:34 pm

Ive got a ninja plus rev B and was just making sure, is this the TR moutning kit that works with the rev B?
I installed my ninja last week and it was very difficult to get it to securely stay in place, even now i dont think its quite on perfect, which the temps suggest, averaging around the high 40's-low 50c when stressed, which is only 5c cooler than the exact same setup with the Intel stock cooler. Next week im upgrading my PSU so i'll do it all at the same time.
BTW, anyone know where i can get the mounting kit in the UK? My usual sites i use dont stock it.
EDIT: Found one here that seems to be what i need, and ships to the UK, although ill be paying twice as much for shipping as i am for the bracket. Not ideal.

Alex · Post by **Alex** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 4:43 pm

Here are some dimensions.

TRUE
http://www.thermalright.com/new_a_page/ ... x-size.jpg
41.4 mm above CPU. 132 x 63.44 mm + Fan.
On LGA 775 socket TRUE can be turned 90 deg.

Mobo compatibility list:
http://www.thermalright.com/new_a_page/ ... 20-mcl.htm

Ninja
http://www.scythe-eu.com/forum/ninja-pl ... sions.html
39 mm above CPU. 110 x 110 mm + Fan.

Mobo compatibility list:
http://www.scythe-eu.com/forum/mainboar ... -list.html

Fan width is usually 25 mm.

Edwood · Post by **Edwood** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 9:18 pm

I have the "Minja" installed on my E8400 and Abit IP35 Pro. Prefect fit. I have plenty of height clearance in my D.Vine HTPC case as well.

I've ordered the TR Bolt Thru kit, as I would like the improved performance from better clamping pressure, and the peace of mind as well.

I dislike those new push pin style retention for LGA775.

figment · Post by **figment** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 9:47 pm

I had considered the Minja as well, but others had complained that it worked on fewer motherboards because of lower clearance. Perhaps they were wrong. At the very least, its good to know it works on your Abit. I had been considering that board as well.

As far as the pushpins go, everyone seems to hate them. Except, of course, for Tom's Hardware. Apparently they think that pushpins are the best mounting mechanism for the LGA 775.