new thermalright HTPC heatsink

yamahaSHO · Post by **yamahaSHO** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:35 pm

ryboto wrote:
yamahaSHO wrote:
ryboto wrote: but like I said, it does add resistance, and cost to Thermalright. They're out to make money after all...
Resistance to what? The heat is going to go to the path of least resistance. The heat pipes are already going through a base. Adding something above it isn't adding any resistance. It's add more cooling surface and more material to manage the heat before getting to the surface area for cooling.

My decision to choose a heatsink isn't influenced by a company making money, I choose by design and operation. I spend $35 for my Ninja 2's which also make use of the space.
Unless it's thermally superconductive(is there such a thing?), adding any material is going to add resistance to heat transfer. It will also add surface area. I mentioned this the first time I posted. Adding material above the base both adds surface area and resistance to heat transfer, because you've added material the heat must conduct through before convection to the air can take place.

As I said, the thermal resistance of the heatpipes is already so damn low, adding a block of aluminum might not be a.) economically worth it, b.) thermally advantageous, or c.) both.

Right, and as I've already stated... The heat pipes are already mounted in a block. They will conduct as normal. A larger block with fins isn't going to hurt what the heat pipes are doing. It's not going to hurt, in fact it will help for managing heat. The heat will be pulled from the CPU.

The resistance is nill... Just like when I size my 13" x 1.25" brakes for my car, I'm using a larger mass to better manage heat.

ryboto · Post by **ryboto** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 6:42 pm

yamahaSHO wrote:
Right, and as I've already stated... The heat pipes are already mounted in a block. They will conduct as normal. A larger block with fins isn't going to hurt what the heat pipes are doing. It's not going to hurt, in fact it will help for managing heat. The heat will be pulled from the CPU.

The resistance is nill... Just like when I size my 13" x 1.25" brakes for my car, I'm using a larger mass to better manage heat.

If you do the math, the thermal resistance through the heatpipes is going to be so low it will be where almost all of the heat is transferred( assuming you put fins on the base).Sure, adding another path in the thermal circuit can help, but consider the space you have, consider the number of fins you can make, and then compare the surface area of those to the fins connected to the heatpipes, it's going to be a small fraction. Add to that the airflow around the thicker lower surface area fins is going to be hot air at a lower speed than the air entering the main fins(the finned base would be directly under the fan bearing, a dead space for airflow), and you have a less than ideal setup for heat transfer.

I'd propose that if they're going to add anything, add a second level of heatpipes, they're more efficient than solid aluminum or copper, and you can get creative with designs. Issue is diminishing returns. Just as in this case, I highly doubt fins on the base would even help keep the CPU 1C cooler.

Post by **NeilBlanchard** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 3:21 am

Hi,

The air must be able to flow through the heatsink, so that the heat in the fins can be transfered to the air. Wider spacing would be a better choice, IMO; and if greater area is needed, then make the fins a bit deeper.

Closely spaced fins = noisier HSF.

ryboto · Post by **ryboto** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:32 am

NeilBlanchard wrote:Hi,

The air must be able to flow through the heatsink, so that the heat in the fins can be transfered to the air. Wider spacing would be a better choice, IMO; and if greater area is needed, then make the fins a bit deeper.

Closely spaced fins = noisier HSF.

yea, it's a good point, need a review on this thing. Those thick heatpipes are blocking a lot of potential airflow.

yamahaSHO · Post by **yamahaSHO** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 8:03 am

ryboto wrote:
yamahaSHO wrote:
Right, and as I've already stated... The heat pipes are already mounted in a block. They will conduct as normal. A larger block with fins isn't going to hurt what the heat pipes are doing. It's not going to hurt, in fact it will help for managing heat. The heat will be pulled from the CPU.

The resistance is nill... Just like when I size my 13" x 1.25" brakes for my car, I'm using a larger mass to better manage heat.
If you do the math, the thermal resistance through the heatpipes is going to be so low it will be where almost all of the heat is transferred( assuming you put fins on the base).Sure, adding another path in the thermal circuit can help, but consider the space you have, consider the number of fins you can make, and then compare the surface area of those to the fins connected to the heatpipes, it's going to be a small fraction. Add to that the airflow around the thicker lower surface area fins is going to be hot air at a lower speed than the air entering the main fins(the finned base would be directly under the fan bearing, a dead space for airflow), and you have a less than ideal setup for heat transfer.

I'd propose that if they're going to add anything, add a second level of heatpipes, they're more efficient than solid aluminum or copper, and you can get creative with designs. Issue is diminishing returns. Just as in this case, I highly doubt fins on the base would even help keep the CPU 1C cooler.

I disagree... Leave it at that.

Kaleid · Post by **Kaleid** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 6:44 am

Here's a review:
http://www.overclockersonline.net/?page ... 411&pnum=1

charonme · Post by **charonme** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 7:22 am

I believe additional base fins would increase the pressure loss ("resistance") of the desired airflow and would increase the heat dissipation only minutely but there is another issue that was not discussed: the base seems to be compatible with their already existing retention bracket so if they made the base different, they would have to manufacture and sell new types of retention brackets.

Those who say that the efficiency increase would be worth the cost increase I ask: how much exactly are you willing to pay for a 0.01 Â°C/W decrease?

To those who say the heat dissipation efficiency would be greatly improved I say: try to solder some find on the base, measure the difference and tell us.

bgavin · Post by **bgavin** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 7:14 am

Is the fin spacing and thickness known yet?

I keep a spread sheet of this and other data, that calculates the open air percentage based on a square area sample.

Elijah86 · Post by **Elijah86** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 7:16 pm

I emailed Sam the reviewer of the heat sink from overclockers and he said this.

"As for the actual measurements, here you go.

In total, there are 78 fins spanning a distance of 117.3mm, meaning each fin is
grossly 1.5mm apart(including fin thickness). When taking fin thickness into
count, the actual air space between each fin is about 1.10mm."

Luminair · Post by **Luminair** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:00 pm

yamahaSHO wrote: Ummm... With all that space, it could only HELP to put some sort of extra cooling fins on the block.

sorry but no, not necessarily. the reason for this is not complex if not intuitive. unfortunately you are sharing with us a very simple perspective on a very complex system

ps: holy old thread batman

pps: and just so I don't look like I'm making this up, realize that thermalright DID put fins on the block bases of older model heatsinks. they have since stopped, and their heatsinks still perform better than ever. hmmm... perhaps they are holding out on us a new generation of heatsinks with turbo base fins! those scurvy dogs...

Plekto · Post by **Plekto** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:24 pm

I see two issues.

- first, as everyone has noticed, tight spacing. The problem is that airflow over a heat sink has to reach a certain amount of CFM to work best. Because air itself can only be saturated with so much heat at once(without causing thermal buildup), you need lots of air moving over the thing.

- This brings me to the second point. Optimally the thing would have a heavy shroud over most of it - like a duct to force air through at higher pressures. The gap between the pipes and the base plus the small spacing and no shroud means that little if any air will actually reach the base or motherboard - not without ramping up the fan to full speed.

What a better design would look like would be shorter design that had very wide spacing plus close contact between the base's heatsink(which it shoudl have) and the fins.

http://www.scythe-usa.com/product/cpu/0 ... etail.html

I wonder if the reviewers could try something - test these coolers with the massive open space between the base and the fin assembly with a small fan blowing sideways across the open base area? I bet temps would drop a lot.(which would show how poor these designs are)

yamahaSHO · Post by **yamahaSHO** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 1:54 pm

Luminair wrote:
yamahaSHO wrote: Ummm... With all that space, it could only HELP to put some sort of extra cooling fins on the block.
sorry but no, not necessarily. the reason for this is not complex if not intuitive. unfortunately you are sharing with us a very simple perspective on a very complex system

What??? Care to enlighten us? I'd really like to hear what you think....

It can't be more complex than writing skills.

Luminair wrote:

pps: and just so I don't look like I'm making this up, realize that thermalright DID put fins on the block bases of older model heatsinks. they have since stopped, and their heatsinks still perform better than ever. hmmm... perhaps they are holding out on us a new generation of heatsinks with turbo base fins! those scurvy dogs...

God forbid that a company would cut things in order to make more money...

Luminair · Post by **Luminair** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 9:33 pm

yamahaSHO wrote: Care to enlighten us?

no, I do not care to hold an impromptu lesson on thermodynamic systems. ask your systems professor.

yamahaSHO · Post by **yamahaSHO** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 9:39 pm

Luminair wrote:
yamahaSHO wrote: Care to enlighten us?
no, I do not care to hold an impromptu lesson on thermodynamic systems. ask your systems professor.

Really? Wow. I even gave you enough time to Google it.

Seriously... If you can't back it up.... There's not much reason to be on a forum. You can't contribute anything and then not provide any proof when someone questions you.

jhhoffma · Post by **jhhoffma** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 9:41 pm

Luminair wrote:
yamahaSHO wrote: Care to enlighten us?
no, I do not care to hold an impromptu lesson on thermodynamic systems. ask your systems professor.

Then you probably shouldn't correct someone if you are unwilling to provide at least a logical argument to back it up. It's fine if you disagree, but tell us why, so we all understand the arguments being made. If you don't have the time to backup your post, don't post.

ryboto · Post by **ryboto** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 6:37 am

jhhoffma wrote:
Then you probably shouldn't correct someone if you are unwilling to provide at least a logical argument to back it up. It's fine if you disagree, but tell us why, so we all understand the arguments being made. If you don't have the time to backup your post, don't post.

I've already given him some reasons it isn't going to offer a huge improvement, reasons grounded in the basics of heat transfer, and he just decided to leave it at a disagreement, which is fine with me, really. Not sure why it's continuing if we already came to that conclusion though.

yamahaSHO · Post by **yamahaSHO** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:53 am

Well, considering I never said it would offer a huge improvment, what are you arguing??? The reason why this continued was because you made another post:

sorry but no, not necessarily. the reason for this is not complex if not intuitive. unfortunately you are sharing with us a very simple perspective on a very complex system

ps: holy old thread batman

pps: and just so I don't look like I'm making this up, realize that thermalright DID put fins on the block bases of older model heatsinks. they have since stopped, and their heatsinks still perform better than ever. hmmm... perhaps they are holding out on us a new generation of heatsinks with turbo base fins! those scurvy dogs...

ryboto · Post by **ryboto** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:14 am

yamahaSHO wrote:Well, considering I never said it would offer a huge improvment, what are you arguing??? The reason why this continued was because you made another post:

Look again, it wasn't me.

yamahaSHO · Post by **yamahaSHO** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:49 am

My bad.

jhhoffma · Post by **jhhoffma** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:55 am

ryboto wrote:
jhhoffma wrote:
Then you probably shouldn't correct someone if you are unwilling to provide at least a logical argument to back it up. It's fine if you disagree, but tell us why, so we all understand the arguments being made. If you don't have the time to backup your post, don't post.
I've already given him some reasons it isn't going to offer a huge improvement, reasons grounded in the basics of heat transfer, and he just decided to leave it at a disagreement, which is fine with me, really. Not sure why it's continuing if we already came to that conclusion though.

Uhh...wasn't referring to you. (That's why we use quotes!) If he was arguing the same points, that's what he should have said. If not, he should provide us with his reasoning. It's not about being right or wrong, I just want to know where everyone is coming from.

ryboto · Post by **ryboto** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:01 pm

jhhoffma wrote:
ryboto wrote:
jhhoffma wrote:
Then you probably shouldn't correct someone if you are unwilling to provide at least a logical argument to back it up. It's fine if you disagree, but tell us why, so we all understand the arguments being made. If you don't have the time to backup your post, don't post.
I've already given him some reasons it isn't going to offer a huge improvement, reasons grounded in the basics of heat transfer, and he just decided to leave it at a disagreement, which is fine with me, really. Not sure why it's continuing if we already came to that conclusion though.
Uhh...wasn't referring to you. (That's why we use quotes!) If he was arguing the same points, that's what he should have said. If not, he should provide us with his reasoning. It's not about being right or wrong, I just want to know where everyone is coming from.

I know you weren't referring to me. I was replying to you to let you know what had gone on in case all you had read was the reply he made to Luminair. I don't see anything wrong with my reply to you, was there something specific that didn't make sense?

charonme · Post by **charonme** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 3:25 am

stop it guys.

Elijah86 · Post by **Elijah86** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:09 pm

ryboto wrote:
jhhoffma wrote:
ryboto wrote: I've already given him some reasons it isn't going to offer a huge improvement, reasons grounded in the basics of heat transfer, and he just decided to leave it at a disagreement, which is fine with me, really. Not sure why it's continuing if we already came to that conclusion though.
Uhh...wasn't referring to you. (That's why we use quotes!) If he was arguing the same points, that's what he should have said. If not, he should provide us with his reasoning. It's not about being right or wrong, I just want to know where everyone is coming from.
I know you weren't referring to me. I was replying to you to let you know what had gone on in case all you had read was the reply he made to Luminair. I don't see anything wrong with my reply to you, was there something specific that didn't make sense?

I love to quote quotes of quotes of quotes of quotes.

whisper · Post by **whisper** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:42 pm

Elijah86 wrote:
ryboto wrote:
jhhoffma wrote: Uhh...wasn't referring to you. (That's why we use quotes!) If he was arguing the same points, that's what he should have said. If not, he should provide us with his reasoning. It's not about being right or wrong, I just want to know where everyone is coming from.
I know you weren't referring to me. I was replying to you to let you know what had gone on in case all you had read was the reply he made to Luminair. I don't see anything wrong with my reply to you, was there something specific that didn't make sense?
I love to quote quotes of quotes of quotes of quotes.

Just for Elijah...

spookmineer · Post by **spookmineer** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:30 pm

Yep.
The heatsink does look interesting.

Shingoshi · Post by **Shingoshi** » Sat Apr 18, 2009 11:56 pm

Unfortunately, I am the owner of an EVGA 730i. I had my Shuriken on this board until I upgraded my processor to a Q9400. The heatsink that's on here now is a Scythe Ninja (with a 120mm fan). It's not a downdraft processor. So my Northbridge is not being cooled. The processor I had before was an E1200 running at 2.7GHz. So I thought I would be able to do well with the Q9400 on this board. What a misjudgment! The EVGA 730i really sucks for overclocking. And I'm surprised I got the 2.7GHz from the E1200.

The Northbridge on this board has no cooling facility whatsoever. So it runs hot all the time. That means instability for any attempts at real overclocking. You absolutely MUST have a downdraft cooler on this board. So the AXP-140 seems like a good move up in performance.

Xavian-Anderson Macpherson
Shingoshi

halcyon · Post by **halcyon** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 4:21 am

More reviews (quality varies, just FYI):

Eiskalmacher (vs. Xigmatek HDT-D1284 @ 12V/7V/5V)
http://eiskaltmacher.de/portal/index.ph ... mitstart=4

Xbitlabs (vs. Thermalright Si-128 SE @ various fan speeds)
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cooler ... html#sect0

Overclockersonline (@ passive)
http://www.overclockersonline.net/?page ... 411&pnum=6

Dexgo (vs. Xilence Black Hawk, Scythe Andy & Samurai @ low speed)
http://www.dexgo.com/index.php?site=art ... re&seite=6

Of course, not all compared coolers have the same profile specs, but comparison sometimes gives a rough idea of performance at similar unrestricted air flows.

Shingoshi · Post by **Shingoshi** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 5:54 pm

An understanding of aerodynamics may help here...

NeilBlanchard wrote:Hi,

The air must be able to flow through the heatsink, so that the heat in the fins can be transfered to the air. Wider spacing would be a better choice, IMO; and if greater area is needed, then make the fins a bit deeper.

Closely spaced fins = noisier HSF.

There are two things (principles) you should be aware of.
1. Laminar Flow
2. Stall characteristics.

If any of you know what sailplanes are, you'll notice they have what's called high-aspect ratio wings. Meaning that the wingspan is significantly greater than the chord (measurement from leading to trailing edge). As a result, they produce greater lift. What the hell? Well here's how it's relevant. Wings with narrow chords move air across them with greater speed. That's because they have the lowest resistance of wings with wider chords.

Laminar flow is specific to the surface (resistance) of the wing itself. It also works for golf balls. That's why they have dimples on them, to produce lift. Laminar flow is essential to whether the wing is likely to stall at higher angles of attack. The bad news is that the wider the chord, the more likely the surface (wing) is to stall. Wider spacing of the fins would create greater turbulence. More turbulence = lower airspeed.

So increasing the depth of the fins (wings) would be less efficient, not more so. Also, the ability of the fan to cool adjacent components on the motherboard, is directly proportional to the airspeed exiting the fins. The wider the fins, the lower the airspeed. So again, wider fins don't work.

Xavian-Anderson Macpherson
Shingoshi

halcyon · Post by **halcyon** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 9:18 pm

Great explanation, thanks!

Shingoshi · Post by **Shingoshi** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:07 pm

I appreciate the Thank You!
I was hoping that I would be understood. And that the information would pertinent to our needs here. I was actually afraid that I wouldn't be concise enough. So if any one else wants to discuss this further, I'll gladly do so.

BTW. I think the Shuriken is very similar in design. The fins on it seem rather close together also. And I never complained about the noise. My first impression of the AXP-140 was, "Wow, that thing is really amazing. I like things that are well designed. And you can't get much better design than this.

Xavian-Anderson Macpherson
Shingoshi

new thermalright HTPC heatsink

retention bracket issue

stop

I have a Scythe Shuriken, and this one seems much better...

An understanding of aerodynamics may help here...

I appreciate the Thank You!