!!!China vs. Japan Panaflo and Globe 120 vs. AF120CT!!!

Control: management of fans, temp/rpm monitoring via soft/hardware

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vortex222
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Post by vortex222 » Sun Sep 05, 2004 10:44 am

some of the time i use the coolermaster ballbarring mediumflow at 5v, they spin about 1100 rpm and never click. they just have a slight wooshing sound. however its far supirior to any fan at defult speed that most computers have.

2 of those in a computer is usaly enough to cool it. and the psu is usaly very quiet as well. it puts them below the average noise of dells and soforth
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Post by Edward Ng » Sun Sep 05, 2004 10:49 am

I find their 80mm LED Rifle Bearing fans to be extremely good at medium and lower voltages!!! It's a shame that so far, the rifle bearing fans integrated into their coolers are a completely different story. :cry:
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vortex222
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Post by vortex222 » Sun Sep 05, 2004 11:20 pm

never tried them. the ones i use are the standerd ball barring.

there not nearly as quiet as the panaflo, but they work well for customers machines, and there very relyable.

i dont know if i can get them here or not, but im going to look for them.
Antec P180, Intel [email protected](400x8)1.2v w/ninja b passive, 16gb Corsair DDR2, Corsair HX520, 2x120mm Noctua, BFG [email protected] (software fan controlled), Asus P5Q-ProTurbo, sb-xfi premium, Corsair F60 SSD, 2tb WD green and 5lb Peal&seel /w some acustipac type product=faint, needs no work and weighs 60lbs.

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Post by Beerhunter » Mon Sep 06, 2004 4:15 am

Nice work as usual ED. I would bet this is the same too and only 5.49 :

http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDe ... 032&depa=1

Image

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Post by wim » Mon Sep 06, 2004 5:17 am

MonsterMac wrote:
(variance if not psychology and certainly not reason to start blaming country of manufacture)
We aren't blaming the country that manufactures the fans, we are just pointing out that Panaflo's made in Japan seem to be more consistent with how the perform acoustically than their counterpart made in China.
sorry, didn't word that very well - i didn't mean blaming the country
i meant it wasn't reason enough to presume the cause was attributable to whichever factory of manufacture.. yet

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Post by wim » Mon Sep 06, 2004 8:02 am

Edward Ng wrote: Any old Joe can post whatever they like in the forums here; pick and choose what you want to take and what you don't feel like believing in here. What makes my forum posts any different than anyone else's?
well thanks for the tip, but i'll pick and choose what i do/don't believe anywhere.

what made it different was the way you had claimed to answer the question once and for all - rather than e.g. saying 'i believe that..' or 'it's my opinion that..' - but maybe that's just "your classic style"
If anyone else other than myself, Russ, Ralf or Mike posted this, would your feedback be equally negative in attitude?
Or is it that I'm a, "confessed audiophile," that brought this tone of engagement forth?
ok ed you're obviously feeling personally attacked here. but since you've asked, i'll admit that things you've written on other occasions probably effect my "tone of engagement". but it's certainly not just the audiophile thing, i also think your few product reviews have been of lower quality than R, R & M's (although i'm sure they'll jump to your defence now)
and your writing personality in general. annoying. i don't mean to tell you to stop calling your pcs names like "sigma one" and "alpha three" 'cause your style is entirely your own business, but in answer to your question, yeah partly right.
Perfectly valid statement; this is why, as I said, take what you will, leave what you won't. There's nothing official about some random forum post, even if it's jazzed up with photos and structured in presentation--anyone could do that.
the (multiple) references in each of your forum posts that you're an spcr reviewer probably means, to the average reader, that your posts carry some more authority or credibility than the others (unofficially, and whether you like it or not). you should consider this an added responsibility for yourself, so i'm just trying to keep you on your toes and make sure you deserve that credibility.
I don't think you're the GM at the fab in China, but you do sound cheesed-off either way. Perhaps it still hits at home some place?
what did you mean by this question?
I never blamed the country of manufacture. I cited that the consistency of Panaflo's China fab is not up the level of their fab in Japan. This is no strike against my home country. Why blame the output of a single fab in a certain location on the fact that it's in that location? That makes no sense whatsoever.
erk..see above post :wink:
A perfectly fine conclusion; had my samples been consistently poor (make the chaff noise),
are you saying that some made no sh sh sh noise at all? from how far away can you hear the chaff noise? approx what is the frequency or period of the sh's at 5V? (want to make sure we're talking about the same thing here)
Too bad I've never tried any Papst fans.
as far i know tell they all click - but the clicking is same or very similar to what i thought we're talking about with the sh sh sh

except they click a lot louder than the panaflos do, and cost a bit more to boot
I have, however, tried quote a few AcoustiFans and find that they are quieter than the Panaflos. Oh, wait, I can't say that to you, right? I only have but my sample base to speak for. Go figure. Yet, come to think of it, why not? It is, after all, merely forum banter.
of course you can say that to me. i can't possibly dispute whether you find that they're quiter than panaflos.
and fwiw i actually tried to get some acoustifans a while ago, and mostly because of your high praise for them.. this was to put onto my zalman 7000, but i couldn't find any in australia so i used an Al evercool 92mm instead (for the record it's better than stock fan but a lot louder than a panaflo at 5V)

however because of the fact that the acoustifan don't start at 5V i've a suspicion that they may achieve quieter-than-panaflo status by simply spinning slower or pushing less air.
it remains to convince myself whether they actually are quieter in the noise-per-cfm sense, which is the only useful measure. but you like them and you appear to have a hint of perfectionism, i'm sure if they're good enough for you they must be a very good fan and will probably try again to buy one if i ever need another fan
Retailers are free to do whatever they like if they believe that it pleases the consumer and will earn them more sales over their competitors. In a world where price differences on cheap items are not the way to win the customer, superior service is a better way to do it. Do a little something extra, which costs nothing more than labor, and charge some extra money for it; $1.00 extra certainly wouldn't kill me, as a consumer, if I felt the services rendered were worth the money.
i agree entirely. but then i never accused the retailers of anything..
if there are idiots out there who really want to buy something useless, then i say sell them the useless thing - because after all it is the satisfaction of that "want" which you're offering, not necessarily the service/entity.
there is 'junk' sold all the time, and it's the demand for it which creates/prolongs its availability. you would probably not disagree, having seen some of the niche markets created by a subset of audiophiles.. (but dare i bring up your speaker cables again? hehe)
Not everybody's out to save that one buck (it's one dollar; I'll have one fewer can of Coke this week to make up for it, sheesh);
in absolute terms it's only $1, but it's 15% premium on the product and perhaps for no good reason.
I never placed that, "dubious claim," on the recommended list. That's up to Mike if he feels that belongs there or not. Mike has had experience with a fairly huge Panaflo sample base (well over a hundred), and he still chose to put that there.
true, good point - ..but even with huge sample base the issue can't have been particularly conclusive because of his double emphasis on the word may.
Blind testing is fine when you do not trust the person testing on a subjective front. Clearly, I trust my ears and ability to be objective, while you probably do not (of course I don't know for this for certain unless you make an open statement on the matter).
ed, the philosophy of blind testing isn't about whether or not you trust the person testing. the issue isn't even whether or not you trust your own ears - probably all normal people 'feel' like the input from their own senses is correct.

it's about having the sense to realise that your expectations can influence your perceptions. in fact if you're at all mathematically inclined, it doesn't even have to be that strict, it could just be admitting that you can't prove that your expectations don't influence your perceptions. you trusting your own ears and your ability to be objective might be something you'll reconsider one day, because it's not about the ears, it's about the brain. it's nice to assume your senses are like rational measuring devices but they're really much more complicated because of psychological effects. for example:

Image

in the picture above, squares A and B are the same colour. there are lots of cute optical tricks our brains play on us, where you can prove to yourself that expectation has influence. similar tricks work for taste/smell as well. do you have good reason to believe your ears are any different?

You reported your findings as they were, and so did I. This creates a wider sample base that we can all draw from; i.e., by my interpretation of the results you reported, all eight fans were effectively equally noisy and produced the chaffing, "sh sh sh sh sh," noise, which indicates six Chinaflos with the noise and two more Japanaflos with the noise. Correct me if I'm wrong there.
sorry actually i only looked at 5 chinaflo FBA08A12L's

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Post by peteamer » Mon Sep 06, 2004 10:48 am

Without predjudice :

I have to say, I'm with wim on the blind testing here.

I really believe none of us are capable of conducting listening 'tests' on items/equipment, especially with such little acoustic difference ,without predjudice if it is not done 'blind'...

I'm not an audiophile... (I've only got Linn/Arcam stuff... ) but even my friends, who are definately not (and I really do mean not ) audiophiles, would only consider doing such testings blind... (We've done (years back) several listening tests trying to prove/disprove various audio... beliefs, with a couple of scary results :oops: )

The picture wim offered is a fine example of the human mind and it's perception of 'facts'. For example if you carry a sheet of white paper around with you all day it will always 'look' the same... even under different lighting conditions. 'Ordinary' 35mm photography (with no extra artificial lighting) will prove that the 'colo(u)r' of the paper changes under different conditions... yet our eyes/brain tell us it is the same.....




I trust my brain... but I don't necassarily believe it..... :lol:


Pete

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Post by Edward Ng » Mon Sep 06, 2004 1:03 pm

That is correct; I have samples that make zero chaffing noise. I believe that was clear enough in the original write-up, but obviously this isn't the case. If you would like, I can always send you one of the samples that make no such noise. The ones that do make the noise were clearly audible across the room in the low ambient noises that I test in; that, too, was mentioned in the original write-up.

The difference is clear and obvious. There's no way to be subjective, biased or fooled by it. The ones that do make the noise are quite loud in output, and not something that I can just conjure or imagine because it's suppose to be that way. Should you prefer it, I can send you one sample that chaffs, the least noisy that I have, and one sample that does not. There's always the possibility that your samples do not chaff as loudly as mine do; I think you should see, with a multisample base to work from, that the degree to which they chaff varies as well. Sending you samples to test for yourself is better than all the typing I can possibly do; action speaks louder than words, as they say.

The other possibility, of course, is that I test at a much lower ambient noise level than you do. That the chaffing noise is clear and obvious across the room should be proof enough that during my tests, ambient noise levels were extremely low. The unfortunate thing is that I have no way to provide a concrete number for reference.

The amount of air moved by either fan is also something that I, unfortunately, cannot test for. Luckily, we have Mike working on just such a set of measurements, so we will know sooner or later. I do agree that there's a distinct possibility that volt for volt, depending on the temperature at the diode of the AcoustiFan, the Panaflo likely moves more air. On the other hand, we have seen for a while now that even undervolted, the AcoustiFans still move sufficient, useful amounts of air. As much? Probably not. Enough? Probably.

The price for AcoustiFans is still way too high; it's a premium that is only worth it if you can really take advantage of the difference. In most people's cases, the ambient noise level is high enough that the difference in noise between an undervolted Panaflo and undervolted AcoustiFan will prove virtually negligible, particularly for people living in urban areas, and for systems that are extremely well damped and/or isolated to begin with.

People buy useless things all the time; after all, joy is worth more than money. The question is whether or not it actually brings them any joy or satisfaction. I say if buying a big plastic sack full of, "100% pure (hot) air," makes you believe you will breathe cleaner and easier and helps you feel more confident in your health, then by all means, it's your money, do what you want with it. After all, you earned it, or at least I hope you earned it (the money).

A 15% premium for a reason that you don't think is any good, so don't pay for the premium. Somebody out there must feel the 15% premium is worth it, so they'll go for it. Their money, their emotions. If it's harmless to you or me, then fine. I'm not here to say what should make a person happier or not--that's something that's up to the person themself to decide.

Change the tally, then, to:

3 good Japan
3 bad Japan
2 good China
7 bad China

Finally, it is obvious that writing style is a subjective matter. I like chocolate ice cream and dark chocolate, others prefer vanilla and milk chocolate. Realize also that I'm no journalism major (my college degree is in Culinary Arts) and that English is my third language. The sort of thing I spend the most time reading (offline) are car magazines, so you can get some sort of idea as to what sort of reading I like to do.

-Ed

EDIT: PS I'm sure you realize this, but if the ambient noise level is extremely low, the difference between the chaffing and the non-chaffing samples will also get more obvious, almost as if amplified or exaggerated. There is little to nothing that we can do to control ambient noise levels short of building a chamber. This time of the year, it is extremely difficult for me to do any noise testing worthy of mention, due to crickets, cicadas etc., for example.
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Tad G
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PLEASE STOP THE FLAMING

Post by Tad G » Mon Sep 06, 2004 1:46 pm

PLEASE STOP!!

Ed Ng- I have come to appreciate your nicely written reviews here on SPCR, and to wim (and in fact--all others) I thank you for all the knowledge and information I have been able to glean from you as well, appreciating your points of view in equal fashion.

That's right---I look at EVERYBODY from Mike C. to the "unknown" poster of tomorrow,as EQUAL....

I see this SPCR BB as a GIANT SUPERMARKET---I take off the shelf what seems important and pertinent and even mission critical to me at a given time, and have no hesitiation or remorse about leaving other things behind--as they could/would/might benefit other viewers.

PLEASE STOP THIS BICKERING. LETS SHOW ALL READERS THAT WE CAN ALL "AGREE TO DISAGREE" .........IN UNITY!

Thanks.

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Post by MonsterMac » Mon Sep 06, 2004 7:45 pm

well i'd just like to say that my friend recently bought 4 chinaflo's for his lian li case, and just for kicks i bought my japanflo over to his dorm room and we did some testing, holding up to ears etc. and three of his chinaflo's were noticibly louder, the other one if there was a difference, was too small to tell.
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Post by wim » Sun Sep 19, 2004 2:12 am

Sorry it's taken me a couple of weeks to get back to you, I have just submitted my thesis (for B Engineering) and had been working non-stop on finishing it before deadline. Stressful stuff, and glad to have it behind me, I'm starting to enjoy the simpler pleasures of life again! :)
Edward Ng wrote: That is correct; I have samples that make zero chaffing noise. I believe that was clear enough in the original write-up, but obviously this isn't the case. If you would like, I can always send you one of the samples that make no such noise. The ones that do make the noise were clearly audible across the room in the low ambient noises that I test in; that, too, was mentioned in the original write-up.
this is surprising me, i'd have thought that it would be necessary for any fan to make some periodic noise (sh sh sh), however soft or slight. this is because a fan is basically a DC motor and requires some form of commutator mechanism.
but the sh noise i'm talking about from my japanaflo is certainly not 'clearly audible across the room'
and i do believe i have higher 'quiet' standards than most people here. i bought a seasonic tornado recently and for a while wondered what all the fuss was about with this psu many people seem very pleased with, it's pretty loud by my standard. so i thought maybe i just got a worse one, but then my friend bought zalman 300B. yikes! that thing should be called the tornado, it's waaaay louder than the seasonic.

if you would really post a fan all the way to australia to prove a point, i'm interested - that would be very good! but if arguing on forums gets me a panaflo reward you might just be encouraging me to be aggressive more often :lol:
The difference is clear and obvious. There's no way to be subjective, biased or fooled by it. The ones that do make the noise are quite loud in output, and not something that I can just conjure or imagine because it's suppose to be that way.
i'll admit that i had more in mind listening tests for your audiophile equipment, not panaflos, when i was writing about blind testing. but my comments were for you and anyone else reading to keep in mind in general, for future reference.. (i still think they're relevant for any useful listening testing to be done by silent pc enthusiasts)

if it really is the case that the difference is clear and obvious (i.e. one does make noise and the other doesn't; although i'd find it much more believable if one made this noise a lot softer than the other) then i would not insist on a blind test, but a few things to note..
-you didn't know that this would be the case before your testing
-the fact that square A is darker than square B is clear as day to me :wink:
Should you prefer it, I can send you one sample that chaffs, the least noisy that I have, and one sample that does not. There's always the possibility that your samples do not chaff as loudly as mine do; I think you should see, with a multisample base to work from, that the degree to which they chaff varies as well. Sending you samples to test for yourself is better than all the typing I can possibly do; action speaks louder than words, as they say.
ok
if you were actually serious about the fan send offer, pm me for mailing address
The other possibility, of course, is that I test at a much lower ambient noise level than you do. That the chaffing noise is clear and obvious across the room should be proof enough that during my tests, ambient noise levels were extremely low. The unfortunate thing is that I have no way to provide a concrete number for reference.
well ..yeah.. who knows. i think my ambient is very low..i can hear my own heartbeat, if that's some sort of measure. (maybe i just have a noisy heart :wink: )

australia is a pretty quiet place unless you live in melbourne or sydney (which i don't), it's mostly bush here. can do a lot of careful listening tests until the frogs out in the garden pond decide to start doing their sex call thing


@ Tad G... relax man! you're the only one WRITING IN CAPS here.. :wink:

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Post by Edward Ng » Sun Sep 19, 2004 6:10 am

I just ordered 5 Enermax (actualy Globe) 80mm fans from NewEgg for sampling; as soon as I receive them, if they're as quiet as AcoustiFan AF80CT (again, made by Globe aswell), then I'll be willing to send off a couple of my Panaflos to you; one horrible one and one noiseless one, and maybe a third one, one that's not as bad, but not perfect.

I will expect to be able to get at least the good one back; you just let me know how they turn out, acoustically, and then let me know how much it will cost you to send them back to me and I'll reimburse you.

Seems shipping isn't all that bad on lighter items; I just put in my order for the Storm G4 with Cathar and it's only a few bucks AUD for air mail; the insurance option was even less.
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Post by Edward Ng » Sun Sep 19, 2004 9:32 pm

Well, I don't know what to do now...

This evening was the first in months that there are no mother nature sounds coming in from outside, so my ambient noise level is finally at a sufficiently low level that I be confident in any listening tests that I do.

For reference, I can hear Sigma One from 3 feet away; normally, it is only audible from a foot away (during early morning hours; daytime it's impossible to hear this machine even if I wanted to, due to outside noise from traffic, although for the last few months I've not had any time where I could hear the machine at all, due to the nighttime noises made by cicadas and such; where the hell have they all gone all of a sudden?!?).

I dug out every single Panaflo I've got and did extensive listening tests on them; as Wim suggested, I basically did a blind test by testing them without looking at their labels at all, and simply putting fans that make the, "sh sh sh sh sh," noise into one group and fans that don't into the other group.

Keep in mind that unlike when I did my original listening tests, most of the fans were brand-spakin' new, with no use at all. Freshly unpacked. This time, all the fans have had quite a few hours of use.

I made an interesting discovery, and basically, my new results very much correlate with Wim's findings...

First off, after doing my listening tests, I found all but one Panaflo in the, "sh sh sh," pile. Every single Panaflo I have with the exception of one produces the, "sh sh sh sh sh," noise to one extent or another. However, the degree to which they produce that noise differs, and while some produce the noise in any orientation, some only make the noise on their side, or face down (face being the intake side of the fan). Again, only one sample did not exhibit any, "sh sh sh sh sh," whatsoever.

Finally, the one fan that didn't make any, "sh sh sh," noise, still shared a common sound signature with all the other pieces. That being a mid-frequency plasticky, rapid ticking sound.

That one last sample is from Japan (80L1A).

I suppose the lesson that I've learned here is to run my fans for at least a few hours before doing listening tests to evaluate them. Clearly, the Panaflos tend to even out over time and generally perform more similarly once broken in.

I'll get more of an opportunity to do more listening tests on all my fans once I receive the Globes and, "break them in," a little bit. I think we can get a more fair comparison that way. I'll take the fans and listen to them, and then divide them up into different piles without ever looking at their labels, and then when it's all said and done, I'll flip them over and see how the results turn out.

-Ed

PS How many hours do you guys want me to break in the Globes (Enermax-labeled) for? I can run all of them for the minimum set time to be sure. Does minimum 24 hours/fan sound good enough?

EDIT: Damn it, now I can hear Sigma One anywhere in the room. What's up with my hearing tonight?!? I better make sure that any listening tests I do from now on are with my sensitivity this high and ambient noise this low...

I'll be sure not to do any more listening tests from this day forth without at least being able to hear my ultraquiet rig anywhere in my listening room. This goes for the next fan comparison, 80mm Globes vs. 80mm Panaflos.

EDIT2: Say, Wim, when you did those tests with your friends, were your Panaflos broken in yet?
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Post by Ralf Hutter » Mon Sep 20, 2004 5:33 am

I always run any new fan for at least 24-48 hours before making a final determination. Quite often they change, sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse.
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Post by wim » Tue Sep 21, 2004 2:39 am

Edward Ng wrote:However, the degree to which they produce that noise differs, and while some produce the noise in any orientation, some only make the noise on their side, or face down (face being the intake side of the fan).
i've seen the orientation thing sometimes too.
and another thing you might notice is that a bit of a squeeze of the frame can sometimes change the sound character.
Again, only one sample did not exhibit any, "sh sh sh sh sh," whatsoever.
Finally, the one fan that didn't make any, "sh sh sh," noise, still shared a common sound signature with all the other pieces. That being a mid-frequency plasticky, rapid ticking sound. That one last sample is from Japan (80L1A).
if tick period is about same as sh period, it's probably still what i'm supposing is commutator noise. i've never come across a dc fan of any size or speed which doesn't make some commutation noise.
EDIT: Damn it, now I can hear Sigma One anywhere in the room. What's up with my hearing tonight?!? I better make sure that any listening tests I do from now on are with my sensitivity this high and ambient noise this low...
I'll be sure not to do any more listening tests from this day forth without at least being able to hear my ultraquiet rig anywhere in my listening room. This goes for the next fan comparison, 80mm Globes vs. 80mm Panaflos.
hm now i'm starting to think my ambiet is actually lower than yours. do you leave "Sigma One" on when you're testing?

here's how i do a listening test: turn everything off and take batteries out of the clock (it ticks! i hate it). i power on a PSU by itself (short motherboard plug with a paperclip). then i jam a pencil or something into the PSU grill to stop the PSU fan. since there's barely any load from a few fans and the PSU is out of case i haven't overheated a psu like this (yet). then i plug fans in thru a homemade 5V molex adapter thing, usually i plug in pairs and do pairwise comparisons.

there's no traffic around here and i can get it really really quiet some nights when the frogs are taking a break.
EDIT2: Say, Wim, when you did those tests with your friends, were your Panaflos broken in yet?
hrm well mine certainly were. as for the others guy, before we did this thing he told me he had spun all his 'flos and couldn't hear differences. whether this meant for only a minute to have a listen, or for a day - i don't know. (at least two of them were/are working in his system though)

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Post by ecto » Mon Oct 18, 2004 3:02 pm

Adding my experience:

Just tested the five L1A:s (actually, one is marked 1J) I have. All five fans exhibit this sh-sh-sh-noise (think rotor blade noise of a really really small helicopter :) I also tested an older M I had lying around (FBM-08A12M) - it also had this noise, but higher pitched and of course louder.

You can't really hear the sh-sh-sh at 12V as the wind noise is too loud, but it becomes apparent at 7-8V, and at 5V it's the only noise the fans make.

Out of the five fans three are Japanaflo's and two Chinaflo's. Even if I wanted to, I couldn't tell the difference between them. They all sound the same if you disregard the extremely small differences in sound characteristics that all fans have (differences you have to have your ear less than a couple of inches from the fan in mid-air to be able to discern).

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