Exhaust Fan for Fractal R5

Control: management of fans, temp/rpm monitoring via soft/hardware

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doyll
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Re: Exhaust Fan for Fractal R5

Post by doyll » Thu Dec 17, 2015 2:36 am

Hi Abula.
Good to see people I know. Hope you are enjoying the holiday season.
Been lurking here for awhile. Looks like a nice place be with good knowledge and info. Hopefully I can add some as well and help others. As you know, my forte is airflow and related components.

Bearmann,
For good airflow case needs to have at least as much exhaust vent area as intake vent and fan area. If using exhaust fans, I like to keep their flow rate out of case less than filtered intake fan flow rate into case. This means all air coming into case is filtered with a little leaking out of case through venting without fans and holes, but with almost no pressure differential between inside and out side of case there is no restriction of airflow through case.

The hardest thing to do in most cases, (no pun) is to get smooth front to back airflow. Bottom fans can help GPU, but top venting and fans almost always cause bottom to top airflow .. which moves GPU heated exhaust up around CPU cooler.

I know it is sometimes hard to understand what I'm trying to say. For something that seems so simple it can be extremely complicated because of all the variables and the cause to effect of each.


I use a simple indoor / outdoor digital thermometer with wired remote sensor to monitor case airflow temps. I position the probe in front of cooler intake (CPU or GPU) to see what the air temp going into them is compared to room temp. Less the 5c difference under heavy load is okay, 2-3c is quite good. (It is not uncommon to see 10-16c difference)
Image
  • A cheap indoor/outdoor thermometer with a piece of insulated wire and a plastic clothspin works great.
    Made up with floral wire and tape. We don't want anything to short out with metal.
    Clip and position sensor where I want to check the temp. Make it easy to see what the air temp going into components actually is relative to room temp. wink.
    Optimum cooling wis when air temps going into coolers only being 2-3c warmer than room.. 5c or less is good.

As Abula said, I'm active on OCN and have a thread there of guides and tutorials. 1st post is index, click on topic of interest to see it. Hopefully I can do one here too, but having to put all images on web instead of being able to move them directly to post makes it very time consuming. Just setting it up so topics in index link text is is time consuming.

Bearmann
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Re: Exhaust Fan for Fractal R5

Post by Bearmann » Thu Dec 17, 2015 6:19 am

I am getting positive airflow, at least at idle. I checked my fan speeds last night and they are all around 550 RPM at idle, both CPU and case fans.

CA_Steve
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Re: Exhaust Fan for Fractal R5

Post by CA_Steve » Thu Dec 17, 2015 7:02 am

doyll wrote:...but having to put all images on web instead of being able to move them directly to post makes it very time consuming.
You can upload images to SPCR via post using the upload attachment tool (below your message body and options). We'd rather host the image than have it at a third party site as third party stuff has a tendency to disappear over time.

Abula
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Re: Exhaust Fan for Fractal R5

Post by Abula » Thu Dec 17, 2015 7:20 am

CA_Steve wrote:
doyll wrote:...but having to put all images on web instead of being able to move them directly to post makes it very time consuming.
You can upload images to SPCR via post using the upload attachment tool (below your message body and options). We'd rather host the image than have it at a third party site as third party stuff has a tendency to disappear over time.
I second steve suggestion, even my paid imageshack account botted or changed links recently, all my posts that i have linked test, pictures and so on are lost, well not lost but i have to relink each.... probably re upload, and probably will do it over time, but time atm is not that free.

But i can see doylls side, SPCR forum is based is powered by phpBB, while most of the big forums are running vBulletin or alikes, and this makes the posting of images/videos among other things different, sometimes takes a long time to post in two different sites. At the same time, OCN does have similar way to capturing the images, in the past they were more easily to use 3rd party sites, now you have to write the code as the image linking is toward the sites upload.

Sorry for the offtopic.

doyll
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Re: Exhaust Fan for Fractal R5

Post by doyll » Thu Dec 17, 2015 7:46 am

CA_Steve wrote:
doyll wrote:...but having to put all images on web instead of being able to move them directly to post makes it very time consuming.
You can upload images to SPCR via post using the upload attachment tool (below your message body and options). We'd rather host the image than have it at a third party site as third party stuff has a tendency to disappear over time.
Thanks for that! :D
I hadn't noticed it. Will make it much easier than having to use PhotoBucket or Image shack. FYI, is basically what I do over on OCN.

Is there a simple way to use first post of a thread as index and link other post to that index list so it works like the thread in this link?
http://www.overclock.net/t/1491876/ways ... -data/0_20

That is the tread I would like to post here with user posts removed. ;)

doyll
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Re: Exhaust Fan for Fractal R5

Post by doyll » Thu Dec 17, 2015 7:55 am

quest_for_silence wrote:
MikeC wrote:Besides WC is still a pita. :roll:

+1: though, if you have 250W to cool *quietly*, it's the only game in town (so, pick your poison).
A good air cooler has no problem quietly cooling a 250w CPU, or even a GPU .. if system airlfow is set up properly they can cool even more without even getting noisy.

Bearmann wrote:I am getting positive airflow, at least at idle. I checked my fan speeds last night and they are all around 550 RPM at idle, both CPU and case fans.
How are you controlling the case fans' speed?
Bearmann wrote:
Ken5d wrote:I'm in a very similar situation. I want to move the rear Fractal fan on my R5 to pair it with the front intake, and get a PWM 140mm for the rear (and possibly another for the bottom; haven't decided yet).

No one has mentioned the Phanteks PH-F140HP, which sounded quite appealing in the "First 140 mm Fan Roundup" of a few years ago. Is there a reason why this one is now out of favor? Amazon's selling them for only $15, which seems pretty darn cheap for a good PWM 140mm fan. Am I missing something?
My understanding is that many of the Phantecs products are copies of the Noctua products (correct me if I am mistaken). Some may have an issue with this.

Would anybody offer an opinion on the durability of the Phantecs UFB (Updraft Floating Balance) Bearing versus the Noctua self-stabilising oil-pressure bearing (SSO-Bearing)? The Phantecs fan does come with a five year warranty versus the Noctua's six year, but I wonder how the fans function a few years out from being new.
Phankeks is not copying Noctua fans as far as I can tell, and I play with lots of different fans. As for market names of bearings, they are just marketing hype. It doesn't really make much difference what bearing is as long as it is a quality bearing. Even sleeve bears compared to ball bearings is more marketing hype. A quality sleeve bearing with last 5-7 years in constant use, but a poor quality ball bearing might not last a year. For example, I have 5-6 year old TY-140 sleeve bearing fans called Enhanced Hyper-Flow Bearing (EHFB). that are still running as good as they did when new.

Bearmann
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Re: Exhaust Fan for Fractal R5

Post by Bearmann » Thu Dec 17, 2015 8:44 am

doyll wrote: How are you controlling the case fans' speed?
I'm using the UEFI of the Asus Maximus Hero VIII MB. The front case fans are on a manually set curve, while the CPU/rear case fans are on the standard curve of the CPU/CPU_opt headers, at least for now. I'm not sure if I want to install AI Suite 3 or not- some people are having issues with it and I understand that it is difficult to uninstall.

doyll
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Re: Exhaust Fan for Fractal R5

Post by doyll » Thu Dec 17, 2015 8:54 am

Bearmann wrote: I'm using the UEFI of the Asus Maximus Hero VIII MB. The front case fans are on a manually set curve, while the CPU/rear case fans are on the standard curve of the CPU/CPU_opt headers, at least for now. I'm not sure if I want to install AI Suite 3 or not- some people are having issues with it and I understand that it is difficult to uninstall.
If it works and case fans run up at same time to similar speeds as CPU fan I wouldn't mess with it. As long as everything is staying cool enough, "Be happy, don't worry!" :D

CA_Steve
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Re: Exhaust Fan for Fractal R5

Post by CA_Steve » Thu Dec 17, 2015 12:33 pm

doyll wrote: Is there a simple way to use first post of a thread as index and link other post to that index list so it works like the thread in this link?
http://www.overclock.net/t/1491876/ways ... -data/0_20

That is the tread I would like to post here with user posts removed. ;)
Answered via PM to keep this thread on track.

doyll
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Re: Exhaust Fan for Fractal R5

Post by doyll » Fri Dec 18, 2015 2:26 am

CA_Steve,
Thanks for the info and sorry for the hi-jack

Bearmann,
What are your temps and fan speeds?

Ricimer
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Re: Exhaust Fan for Fractal R5

Post by Ricimer » Tue Dec 29, 2015 6:06 am

Hopefully on topic,

I have a new build using the R5 and I'm having some noise issues with it.

Some build info
6700K
Asrock Z170 Extreme 4
Msi gaming 780ti
2 SSD, 2 HDD.

At the moment I have a NF-A14 PWM as intake and a second as exhaust.

When idle, and using the fan profiles on my motherboard, I can run the fans with very little noise, up to around 850rpm. However when gaming, the case starts to warm up quite quickly. When the fans increase to 1100rpm or above, they really are very noisy, much more so than my old machine.

Is anyone else using this combination? It might just be that I'm overreaching, trying to keep case temperatures below 40c with a 780 that exhausts into the case, while also wanting a quiet case (I'm not going to try silent just yet ;) )

In terms of the noise, I do wonder if it's mostly the grill, the intake is also loud, but the exhaust is worse.

Lastly, I've ordered a third GP-14, I will try with them as 2 front intakes and exhaust when I can to see how they compare

CA_Steve
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Re: Exhaust Fan for Fractal R5

Post by CA_Steve » Tue Dec 29, 2015 7:55 am

Is it really the ambient case temperature you are measuring or is it a motherboard sensor? What are the other devices (HDD, SSDs) showing for temps? Chances are, you could ease up on the fan profiles and not have any thermal issues.

Are you using the middle HDD cage or is it removed?

Abula
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Re: Exhaust Fan for Fractal R5

Post by Abula » Tue Dec 29, 2015 8:07 am

@Ricimer Weclome to SPCR.

Seems to me that you are trying too hard to keep temps down, while its ideal it will cost you noise, what temps do you have on load on your gpu and cpu cores using your case fans at 850rpms? and what cpu cooler are you using?

When i had my R4 running my setup, the only way my NF-A14 PWM went that high were under prime95, on gaming or usual load i never passed 900rpms.

Bearmann
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Re: Exhaust Fan for Fractal R5

Post by Bearmann » Tue Dec 29, 2015 8:11 am

So you have 4 case fans presently, 2 NF A-14's and two GP-14s? Where are they located? As CA_Steve mentioned, are you using the middle drive cage?

Ricimer
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Re: Exhaust Fan for Fractal R5

Post by Ricimer » Tue Dec 29, 2015 8:20 am

CA_Steve wrote:Is it really the ambient case temperature you are measuring or is it a motherboard sensor? What are the other devices (HDD, SSDs) showing for temps? Chances are, you could ease up on the fan profiles and not have any thermal issues.

Are you using the middle HDD cage or is it removed?
It's the motherboard temperature sensor, SSDs read 36 (and 18, temperature sensor appears essentially useless on the cheap sandisk SSD). The HDDs are 37-39 (HGST 7200rpm). The middle bay has the 4 drives in it.

Maximum CPU core temperature (at 39 MB temp) was 75, which is pretty good with prime95/3dmark running, NH-U14s for the CPU cooler, although a little loud at 1500rpm. In an actual game (been testing with Dragon age inquisition) then CPU and its fan are fine (1200 rpm or below, less than 70 CPU).

GPU is a little more warm than I would like, 74 at 75% fan, but if I removed the lower cage and put a second intake in then this would probably come down.

Just trying to get a feel for acceptable temperatures, so I will tweak the profile to make it less aggressive and see how it goes. Asrock fan tuning in the bios isn't particularly helpful, minimum of 5 degree increment for MB monitoring and the default motherboard maximum temperature is 70!


Last case was the obsidian 800, so while the cooling wasn't actually that great, it was big enough for everything to just worry about cooling itself! At least I can lift the R5.

Ricimer
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Re: Exhaust Fan for Fractal R5

Post by Ricimer » Tue Dec 29, 2015 8:24 am

Abula wrote:@Ricimer Weclome to SPCR.

Seems to me that you are trying too hard to keep temps down, while its ideal it will cost you noise, what temps do you have on load on your gpu and cpu cores using your case fans at 850rpms? and what cpu cooler are you using?

When i had my R4 running my setup, the only way my NF-A14 PWM went that high were under prime95, on gaming or usual load i never passed 900rpms.
Hi, thanks for the welcome, see previous post for temps, I might well just be being too cautious, the old machine had very little monitoring and a lot more space for heat to leak out. Along with fixed low speed fans, there was nothing to configure. I guess I was just a little surprised how loud the Noctuas are on max speed.

Ricimer
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Re: Exhaust Fan for Fractal R5

Post by Ricimer » Tue Dec 29, 2015 8:26 am

Bearmann wrote:So you have 4 case fans presently, 2 NF A-14's and two GP-14s? Where are they located? As CA_Steve mentioned, are you using the middle drive cage?
Just the two NF-A14 PWMs fans installed at the moment, replaced the GP-14s during the initial build. One front intake, one exhaust. Currently using middle drive cage with 4 drives in it.

Bearmann
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Re: Exhaust Fan for Fractal R5

Post by Bearmann » Tue Dec 29, 2015 8:39 am

You will probably get more airflow to the CPU and GPU if you remove the 3 bay HDD cage and move the 5 bay HDD cage to the bottom. Even better if could could consolidate your HDD's and just use 3 in the 3 bay cage at the bottom.

doyll
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Re: Exhaust Fan for Fractal R5

Post by doyll » Tue Dec 29, 2015 8:46 am

You might find some of the info in "Ways to Better Cooling" helpful. 1st post is index. Click on topic of interest to see it.
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=68947

If you have any questions, please post them here.

lb_felipe
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Re: Exhaust Fan for Fractal R5

Post by lb_felipe » Fri Jan 08, 2016 9:22 am

doyll wrote:I've found most of the time if good intake fans are uses no exhaust fans are needed .. and if needed it is more to change the case airflow patterns than to increase case airflow. By this I mean flowing a cool air supplying to component and flowing their heated exhaust out of case without it mixing with the cool air supply.

I would change the front intakes to fans better designed to overcome resistance. The filters and grills need more powerful fans. At least this proved true in all previous versions of Define cases. I'm quite fond of TY-14x series fans from Thermalright. The TY-147A is black housing with white fan, PWM 300-1300rpm. Problem is it is not square and uses 120mm fan mounts. Making them 140x140 is pretty easy if you have access to a good power miter saw or table saw Just trim the rounded sides. I don't know how Define R5 front mounts work, but in Define R4 the fans clip in, and 140x140 flat sides on TY-14x fans clip in nicely.

If you need more info please ask. I have a tutorial and drawings for cutting them to 140x140mm and also a pattern for making a 140x140 adapter to use them on 140mm fan mounting pattern.
Do you think if a Corsair 400Q with three intake fans (Slip Stream SL [500 rpm]) were used, an no exhaust fans, that may have the same positive pressure and dust free effect that a Silverstone RVX01 (or other Raven, Fortress FT02/05 etc) does have?

http://www.silverstonetek.com/raven/pro ... a=en&top=C

http://www.scythe-eu.com/en/products/fa ... m-120.html

http://www.corsair.com/en/carbide-serie ... tower-case

(with the advantage of using quietest sleeved bearing in the vertical orientation)

xan_user
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Re: Exhaust Fan for Fractal R5

Post by xan_user » Fri Jan 08, 2016 9:37 am

Ricimer wrote: ...
GPU is a little more warm than I would like, 74 at 75% fan...
74 wont be an issue. you have enough thermal room there to lower the rpms a bit.

doyll
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Re: Exhaust Fan for Fractal R5

Post by doyll » Fri Jan 08, 2016 9:39 am

lb_felipe wrote:
doyll wrote:I've found most of the time if good intake fans are uses no exhaust fans are needed .. and if needed it is more to change the case airflow patterns than to increase case airflow. By this I mean flowing a cool air supplying to component and flowing their heated exhaust out of case without it mixing with the cool air supply.

I would change the front intakes to fans better designed to overcome resistance. The filters and grills need more powerful fans. At least this proved true in all previous versions of Define cases. I'm quite fond of TY-14x series fans from Thermalright. The TY-147A is black housing with white fan, PWM 300-1300rpm. Problem is it is not square and uses 120mm fan mounts. Making them 140x140 is pretty easy if you have access to a good power miter saw or table saw Just trim the rounded sides. I don't know how Define R5 front mounts work, but in Define R4 the fans clip in, and 140x140 flat sides on TY-14x fans clip in nicely.

If you need more info please ask. I have a tutorial and drawings for cutting them to 140x140mm and also a pattern for making a 140x140 adapter to use them on 140mm fan mounting pattern.
Do you think if a Corsair 400Q with three intake fans (Slip Stream SL [500 rpm]) were used, an no exhaust fans, that may have the same positive pressure and dust free effect that a Silverstone RVX01 (or other Raven, Fortress FT02/05 etc) does have?

http://www.silverstonetek.com/raven/pro ... a=en&top=C

http://www.scythe-eu.com/en/products/fa ... m-120.html

http://www.corsair.com/en/carbide-serie ... tower-case

(with the advantage of using quietest sleeved bearing in the vertical orientation)
Kinda hi-jacking, but okay. First of 500rpm fans are not going to keep component cool at anything but an idle. Second, I don't understand what you are trying to ask comparing the 400Q with Silverstone. Big difference in case and fan quality is first thing that comes to mind.

Basically you need case fans that can more air at full speed than component fans do. Obviously if the case fan do not change speed and airflow rates at the same time component fans do, the only way they can supply enough air to handle component demands is to be running at high speed all the time. This is why I almost always build systems with case fans on automatic controls same as components. When component works and build heat demanding more cooling from it's own fans, the case fans increase in speed and airflow at the same time.

lb_felipe
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Re: Exhaust Fan for Fractal R5

Post by lb_felipe » Fri Jan 08, 2016 1:03 pm

Imagine a Raven or Fortress rotated 90° to the left. It is the nearly same layout of a Corsair 400Q. Imagine a 400Q rotated... vice versa.

I just used Corsair 400Q as example, and because I see it has closed holes in the front, floor and ceiling. That might be optimal to make the positive pressure effect, and therefore avoiding the dust because its filter, putting three 120mm fans or two 140mm fans on its front as intake.

Sorry for not being able to express myself decently in English.

doyll
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Re: Exhaust Fan for Fractal R5

Post by doyll » Sat Jan 09, 2016 4:59 am

lb_felipe wrote:Imagine a Raven or Fortress rotated 90° to the left. It is the nearly same layout of a Corsair 400Q. Imagine a 400Q rotated... vice versa.

I just used Corsair 400Q as example, and because I see it has closed holes in the front, floor and ceiling. That might be optimal to make the positive pressure effect, and therefore avoiding the dust because its filter, putting three 120mm fans or two 140mm fans on its front as intake.

Sorry for not being able to express myself decently in English.
No problem with English. Well, probably no problem. :D But I don't even speak a 2nd language so you are already better then me.

I guess you are interesting in the 400Q case and are want to know if it will perform as well as Raven or Fortress? Turning 90 degrees has almost no effect on cooling. Changing the orientation means almost nothing.

Case layout, venting and fans are the important 'basics'. Of course components also play an important role. A downflow cooler makes it much harder to remove cooler's heated exhaust air without some of it mixing into and heating up cool air going to the cooler. This also applies to GPU coolers, but almost all GPU cooler make it near-impossible to keep some their heated exhaust air from mixing into and heating up their intake air.

But there are many things we can do to limit this heated air mixing with cool air. For example a case that is designed with no obstructions from intake to exhaust sides (front to back, bottom to top) and has motherboard oriented so GPU and CPU are not in the same line as airflow is can usually be setup to do a very good job of supplying components with air at or near room temperature.

Problem there are so many variables in each different case and component combination it is impossible to talk about what is best airlfow layout in general terms. Each has it's own problems.

It's kinda like going fishing. You can spend all day telling me how you fish and what the best way to catch fish is. Still, if we go out fishing on same stream you will most likely catch more fish. Not because you didn't try to tell me everything about how to do it, but because you see, hear, smell things and adjust your fishing method accordingly .. while I only notice a fraction of the things you do .. and even if I did notice them would probably not know what they mean.

lb_felipe
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Re: Exhaust Fan for Fractal R5

Post by lb_felipe » Tue Jan 12, 2016 10:47 am

Knowing a 2nd language is good, but it is better if you know English perfectly, like you Canadians do, regardless whether you know languages else. :wink: Beyond all, I always use the Google translator to write here. :oops: :)

I'm aiming at that case because it has white LEDs (I do not know another that has it), it has no external drives bays and no HDD cage at the front, in addition to dampening foam, which can help a little.

I look for just an enough air flow which can keep the inside temps acceptable plus and desirable dust free setup, which just is possible with filter on intake and positive pressure effect. Did you get me?

For teh rest, I got everything what you said, and I just have to thank for the lesson. Your posts is filled with wisdom. :wink:

doyll
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Re: Exhaust Fan for Fractal R5

Post by doyll » Tue Jan 12, 2016 10:56 am

lb_felipe wrote:Knowing a 2nd language is good, but it is better if you know English perfectly, like you Canadians do, regardless whether you know languages else. :wink: Beyond all, I always use the Google translator to write here. :oops: :)

I'm aiming at that case because it has white LEDs (I do not know another that has it), it has no external drives bays and no HDD cage at the front, in addition to dampening foam, which can help a little.

I look for just an enough air flow which can keep the inside temps acceptable plus and desirable dust free setup, which just is possible with filter on intake and positive pressure effect. Did you get me?

For teh rest, I got everything what you said, and I just have to thank for the lesson. Your posts is filled with wisdom. :wink:
If you are talking to me, I'm not Canadian. Much closer to you than Canada. I'm an American expat living in England. ;)

Ricimer
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Re: Exhaust Fan for Fractal R5

Post by Ricimer » Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:13 pm

Finally had time to rearrange the fans. I've now got 2 x front GP14, 1 x rear GP14 in the case. I'm also using the fan controller (on max) as they aren't pwm fans.


While they are slightly louder running at 12v (1000 rpm), I'm quite happy with the noise they make, cooling is now sufficient with the extra fan to run everything at maximum utilisation and stay below 40c for the motherboard sensor. I haven't moved the drives at the moment but may in the future when I can drop an SSD.

With prime95/3dmark demo loop temps are:

CPU: 74 max core temp at 100% fan speed (NH-U14S)
GPU: 74 max at 73% fan speed
HDD: 34 max, 26 for SSD

Quite pleased with the GP14 fans, although the Noctuas are quieter (at low speeds), pwm and more powerful. However, I think that they are quite a lot higher pressure which makes the noise more intrusive. I shall find another use for them at a late date.

All I can hear now is the damn barracuda 3TBs in the Define mini behind me! Sharkoon vibe fixers on the way for those though :)

doyll
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Re: Exhaust Fan for Fractal R5

Post by doyll » Tue Jan 19, 2016 3:14 pm

Pretty amazing how loud HDDs become when fans are quiet. :D

How tight are the HDD mounting screws through their rubber dampers? I've found the need to be almost loose. If they are even the least bit too snug the don't work as good as they can. This won't stop their clicking, but will usually quiet them down.

Ria Toshniwal
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Re: Exhaust Fan for Fractal R5

Post by Ria Toshniwal » Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:13 pm

Excellent Thread!!

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