MikeC develope a SFF case after the P180?

[Aris]

I noticed that MikeC uses a shuttle zen as his reference PC.

but he developed a rather large tower with antec.

you think their is any way MikeC might get together with antec again or mabey Shuttle to develope a SFF quiet computer?

My system is pretty quiet, and switching to the P180 for me just doesnt make much sense as i probably wont reduce my system noise much. but i would buy a new case if it was a SFF and did the same thing.


id personally prefer a Micro ATX case from antec, rather than a shuttle case so that i can upgrade the motherboard instead of being stuck with a proprietary motherboard.

also i think it would be really cool if he could develope one of those external PSU's like the one used on the shuttle zen, but one that would work with any SFF computer. somthing around the 250w range would be plenty.

either do the ducting trick with the video expansion slot or mabey try a trick from hush/zalman and do a heatpipe deal to an array of passive heatsinks along the external side case panel.

id also like to see a hard drive cage that would support 2.5" drives from a stock configuration format. like some sort of actual decoupling with elastic bands or foam mats to lay on so that we dont have to go back in and mod it in ourselves after the fact.

give it those composite aluminum/plastic/aluminum case panels from the P180. with internal steel construction to reduce vibration as much as possible from a stock configuration.

mabey have like 1x 120mm fan, located in the middle of the case and try to do one of those airflow tunnels to cool the CPU as well as the rest of the case. mabey also make a heatpipe cpu cooler to go with the case like shuttle does.

id like to see some custom length sata/pata/power cables built into the case so we dont run into that problem of an awsome case with standard cables that are way too long to do anything with. or at the very least some sort of innovative cable managment system to deal with excess lengths in cables.


If MikeC could do all of that, in colaboration with Antec, i wouldnt ever buy any other case ever again.

[Tiamat]

Perhaps pm mike? Or did you want the opinions of other users about a quiet sff?

[Aris]

Perhaps pm mike? Or did you want the opinions of other users about a quiet sff?

idunno, i didnt quite think my posting through. i guess i just wanted to get all my idea's out, and get other people's idea's they would like to see in a SFF quiet case. and then mabey get some SPCR members to comment on if it could be done, mabey mikec even state his opinion on it publicly.

[IsaacKuo]

I'd like to see an ATX SFF similar in layout to my first scratchbuilt case. It is basically the size and shape of a Shuttle turned sideways, except taller. From the front, the layout looks like:

Code: Select all

 _____________
|             |
|       CPU   :  <-- 80mm side intake (top)
|=============|  <-- motherboard
|        DVD  |
| PSU    HDD  :  <-- 80mm side intake (bottom)
v-------------v

The body is split into two halves--the upper half with the motherboard, and the lower half with the drives and the power supply. This provides two airflow paths:

Side intake (top) -> CPU -> Open PCI slots

Side intake (bottom) -> DVD/HDD -> PSU

Alternatively, there is an optional rear exhaust behind the CPU and an optional front intake in front of the PCI slots. This produces three airflow paths:

Side intake (top) -> CPU -> Rear case exhaust

Front intake -> GPU -> Open PCI slots

Side intake (bottom) -> DVD/HDD -> PSU

This layout makes it easy to work on the system. The lid and front cover are a single piece; removing it reveals all components and connections with easy access.

The drive cage slides out forward, and looks like:

Code: Select all

  ____________
H|  5.25 bay  |H
D|============|D
D|  5.25 bay  |D
 ^------------^

The mounting points for 3.5" hard drives on the sides are only an afterthought--they spoil the side intake airflow and are meant only for temporary use when transfering files.

The intended use is for one bay to be used with a 5.25" optical drive, while the other bay houses either a 3.5" or 2.5" drive using included suspension adapters.

[IsaacKuo]

...and yes, my case proposal is basically a computer tech's testing workstation enclosed in a box.

[winguy]

A mATX case too.

[IsaacKuo]

A mATX case too.

My proposed case would be for full size ATX boards (and below). The PSU and drive cage wouldn't fit side-by-side underneath an mATX board. Nevertheless, the overall dimensions are small enough to still be considered an "SFF" (maybe 12.5 inches wide, 10 inches deep, and 9 inches tall).

Oh--the PSU is supposed to be lying flat, upside-down. If it were laid on the side, the added height would be excessive.

[pangloss]

I'd love a SPCR SFF case as well. The P180 appears promising, but as many have pointed out, it's quite large.

How large would a mATX supporting case have to be compared to the Zen? I'd appreciate the flexibility of picking my motherboard as well. I think Aris' ideas are spot-on.

[Aris]

A mATX case too.

My proposed case would be for full size ATX boards (and below). The PSU and drive cage wouldn't fit side-by-side underneath an mATX board. Nevertheless, the overall dimensions are small enough to still be considered an "SFF" (maybe 12.5 inches wide, 10 inches deep, and 9 inches tall).

Oh--the PSU is supposed to be lying flat, upside-down. If it were laid on the side, the added height would be excessive.

well they already did a full size ATX quiet case. they should do a mATX case next i think.

and personally id prefer to have 1 centrally located 120mm rather than multiple 80mm fans.



I want a mATX case that MikeC himself would use as a replacement for his SPCR Reference shuttle zen box.

[MikeC]

This collaboration with Antec was a one-time affair, though there has been talk about other projects. There are lots of good ideas already proposed above, and I think it might be possible to modify existing SFF barebones -- though with a lot of work.

I know mATX boards are becoming more popular, and there is probably a niche for a quiet small mATX case for the DIYer. The question is whether Antec or any other case maker also thinks so. It's a question of the tooling costs for a non-standard design. Anyway, the interest is noted & I will see if such a project can be initiated.

[Aris]

thanks for posting on my thread mike. i really appreciate it.

its too bad about that antec deal being a one timer. mabey if sales of that case are really good, antec will contact you asking for help on another project


on the note of modify'ing existing SFF barebones. which ones would you suggest for ultimate silence capabilities with the least effort. cause anything is possible if you put enough time and effort into it.

ive considered the Antec Aria as well as the Chenming mATX cube http://www.newegg.com/OldVersion/app/Vi ... 485&depa=1

what are your thoughts on those, and is their anything else you would suggest if not either of them.



thanks again for your time, and keep up the good work.

[IsaacKuo]

well they already did a full size ATX quiet case. they should do a mATX case next i think.

Okay, okay...but I simply don't feel it would make the overall package much more compact. For quiet computing, you want to have a lot of height above the CPU anyway. I'll admit my case design has a large space for the PCI slots, but at least this provides unrestricted space for GPU cooling solutions.

and personally id prefer to have 1 centrally located 120mm rather than multiple 80mm fans.

Why, exactly? For silencing purposes, two 80mm fans is generally quieter than one 120mm fan. More importantly, the two separate airflow paths allow for superior cooling and airflow control.

I imagine the typical configuration would be to have the upper 80mm case fan blowing air through the CPU heatsink (a heatpipe tower), while the lower 80mm intake has no fan. Instead, airflow in the lower half is provided by the PSU.

Because the two airflow paths are independent, it's possible to run the upper fan with medium airflow for CPU cooling while the PSU fan runs with very low airflow for cooling itself and the hard drive.

I am, of course, a big fan of single fan systems. However, my single fan experience with my 2.4ghz Northwood has erased any doubt I may have had that more powerful systems need more to remain silent.

Anyway, I am curious about what sort of internal layout you think your ideal mATX case should have. Are you thinking of something like the Shuttle Zen? How would you lay things out to make the end result significantly more compact than what I proposed?

Just going with the basic Shuttle Zen layout, the width of the case is already greater than the depth of my proposed case. (Remember that my case is similar to a Shuttle turned sideways). Theoretically, you could make up for that with a shorter length, but then where are you going to fit the drives?

[ddrueding1]

The Antec Aria includes quite a few of the ideas proposed here.

1) single 120mm exhaust
2) special composite side and top panels (same as P180)
3) good "cross-flow" airpath from front to back
4) room for 3 hard drives (2 side-mounted like above diagram)

I've build a few great HTPC systems using the Aria. With just a few mods it becomes a very quiet and versatile chassis.

1) open up the PSU intake and do a Nexus fanswap
2) mod the drive cage to support a suspended 2.5" drive

[Aris]

Anyway, I am curious about what sort of internal layout you think your ideal mATX case should have. Are you thinking of something like the Shuttle Zen? How would you lay things out to make the end result significantly more compact than what I proposed?

i dont wish to speculate on how i would make it, i just was stating what i wanted it to do. I'll leave the actual design and development to the proffesionals. as long as the end product meets the needs i dont care how they got from point A to B.

[IsaacKuo]

It doesn't really take a trained "engineer". Mainly, what most of us do with fiddling with computer equipment provides experience enough to tell us what we do and don't like in a case layout.

Surely, I'm not the only one here who has extensively fiddled with caseless computers (i.e. the components are sitting on a desk). When you do it, you naturally move stuff around where the cables are convenient. That's my main inspiration for this SFF case layout--arranging components so the cables "make sense".

Code: Select all

  Front View
 _____________
|             | 
|       CPU   :  <-- 80mm side intake (top) 
|=============|  <-- motherboard 
|        DVD  | 
| PSU    HDD  :  <-- 80mm side intake (bottom) 
v-------------v

The drives are positioned with PATA cable management in mind. On most motherboards, the IDE ports are along the front edge, on the CPU side. The drive cage is positioned so the IDE cables have a "straight shot", with no cable-gami required to keep them out of the way of airflow.

With the top/front removed, the PSU is recessed out of the way--yet the cable bundle sprouts out the front for easy access. With many motherboards, the power connectors are near the front edge. That leaves virtually all of the cable clutter neatly tucked away in the lower section. The upper section is free of cable clutter, so all components are completely accessable.

Think about how pleasant it would be to work on this computer! Change memory? Right there in front of you. Swap the processor or heat sink? Nothing in your way. Insert or remove expansion cards? No problem.

The only thing between this case and nirvana is the fact that you have to pull out the drive cage to add/remove an optical drive. I haven't figured out a good way around that one.

[tay]

well they already did a full size ATX quiet case. they should do a mATX case next i think.

The P180 is absolutely massive, Isaacs solution is anything but. Needless to say I like his idea (otherwise I wouldnt have bothered responding) but I am far too lazy to engineer such a design for my own use. Of course you lose most of your PCI slots which is becoming less of a concern these days

and personally id prefer to have 1 centrally located 120mm rather than multiple 80mm fans.

My experience matches up with isaacs here as well. The only problem with using multiple 80mm fans is that over a 2-3 year lifespan some of the fans start to get noisier because there are more of them to break down. Of course it is also more efficient space wise for a 120mm hole than 2x80mm holes.

[Ackelind]

I'd like to see an ATX SFF similar in layout to my first scratchbuilt case. It is basically the size and shape of a Shuttle turned sideways, except taller. From the front, the layout looks like:

Code: Select all

 _____________
|             |
|       CPU   :  <-- 80mm side intake (top)
|=============|  <-- motherboard
|        DVD  |
| PSU    HDD  :  <-- 80mm side intake (bottom)
v-------------v

The body is split into two halves--the upper half with the motherboard, and the lower half with the drives and the power supply. This provides two airflow paths:

Side intake (top) -> CPU -> Open PCI slots

Side intake (bottom) -> DVD/HDD -> PSU

Alternatively, there is an optional rear exhaust behind the CPU and an optional front intake in front of the PCI slots. This produces three airflow paths:

Side intake (top) -> CPU -> Rear case exhaust

Front intake -> GPU -> Open PCI slots

Side intake (bottom) -> DVD/HDD -> PSU

This layout makes it easy to work on the system. The lid and front cover are a single piece; removing it reveals all components and connections with easy access.

The drive cage slides out forward, and looks like:

Code: Select all

  ____________
H|  5.25 bay  |H
D|============|D
D|  5.25 bay  |D
 ^------------^

The mounting points for 3.5" hard drives on the sides are only an afterthought--they spoil the side intake airflow and are meant only for temporary use when transfering files.

The intended use is for one bay to be used with a 5.25" optical drive, while the other bay houses either a 3.5" or 2.5" drive using included suspension adapters.

That top drawing looks kind of like the KlossPC, but with the CPU intake at the top > ducted town to a thick 92mm fan and a heatpipe cooler quite like the XP90, and then a rear case fan.

The only problem with this is that the GFX is placed quite close to the cpu and disturbs the air flow a bit.

[Aris]

The P180 is absolutely massive, Isaacs solution is anything but.

yes but the topic of the thread is for a SFF case. not a small full ATX case.

preferably id like a case to use a smaller form factor than mATX, but right now the smallest form factor that is still somewhat widely supported and manufactured for is mATX and not any of the smaller form factors.


ive thought about a case size/layout since he asked about it for a bit. id want 1x 5.25" external bay for an optical drive. 1x 3.5" external bay. which you could use for a number of things, a floppy drive, a zip drive, a media card bay etc. 1x 3.5" internal bay. for the hard drive. perhaps with a built in dampener/size adapter for 2.5" hard disks that could screw into the 3.5" internal bay.

id want 1x 120mm fan punchout at either the rear or bottom/rear of the case(if you put the exhaust on the bottom near the rear though you'd have to mount the motherboard upside down inside the case.), but dont place the fan on the external panel of the case. rather somewhere in the middle. with the hard drive bay in a wind tunnel behind the fan like they are in the P180, and in front of the fan have the CPU. and then have the wind tunnel discharge the hot air from the case at the 120mm fan punchout.

the powersupply like i stated earlier would be external. with a plug on the back of the case that you would plug the powersupply into, and on the inside of the case it would seperate into the connectors needed to plug everything inside the case in. all the wire leads would be cut to exact lengths to reach the desired locations or as close as can be.

2x front usb ports, 1x front firewire port, 1x mic and 1x headphone jack on the front.

preferably a pullout motherboard track, cause working in such small cases is sometimes a bit tough cause of space issues.



with a bit of imagination you can sorta put all of that together in your head and get a pretty good idea of what the case layout would look like

but since mikec said this prolly wont happen, or at the very least not for a while. im thinking of taking this case:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6811125485

and modding it a bit. gunna take the support brackets that are currently placed in the middle of the sides from front to back panel out, and put in support rods at the top corners instead so i can put a larger heatsink on the CPU. prolly an xp-120. then duct the fan from xp-120 to the exhaust 120mm punch out so that the fan isnt attatched to the case itself. have this fan blow cool air in and directly onto the cpu. then my seasonic PSU in replace of the stock PSU, the 120mm fan on it facing down pulling the hot air from the video card area and out of the case.

it will have 2x 120mm fans, both will be papst, and both will be 7volted. the cpu fan sucking cool air in and the psu blowing it out. and neither of them will have direct connection to any of the case panels, so the noise from them that does manage to eminate from the back of the case will be further muffled by indirect paths.

i'll put a hitatchi 80g 2.5" hard drive in it, suspend mounted. and a 6600gt video card with a heatpipe passive heatsink on it. then put acoustipak sound dampening material on all the surfaces to further dampen any noise.

it will be 1 more fan that i would like to have in my case, but since i cant get an external PSU brick like the one for the shuttle zen, it will have to do for now.

[Mar.]

For me, the ideal case would be CAST IRON, treated to be rustproof and designed to sit on the floor. This means no air vents on the bottom of the case like on the 3700/3000b. All the edges would be sharp, and it would be a pain in the ass to open and close.

I'm not kidding.

[Devonavar]

Isaac:

As mentioned by Ackelind, your SFF layout has already been produced by Trigem computers in the form of the Kloss PC. With some minor mods, this thing has the potential to give the Shuttle Zen a run for its money. Keep your eyes peels for a review coming up soon...

Devon

[IsaacKuo]

The P180 is absolutely massive, Isaacs solution is anything but.

yes but the topic of the thread is for a SFF case. not a small full ATX case.

The case I describe is both an SFF case AND a full ATX case. The two are not incompatible concepts. I am quite familiar with how compact you can cram things around a standard full size ATX mobo and a standard ATX PSU. See my Gallery entry "Single fan madness pt 3" for one extreme example.

ive thought about a case size/layout since he asked about it for a bit. id want 1x 5.25" external bay for an optical drive. 1x 3.5" external bay. which you could use for a number of things, a floppy drive, a zip drive, a media card bay etc. 1x 3.5" internal bay. for the hard drive. perhaps with a built in dampener/size adapter for 2.5" hard disks that could screw into the 3.5" internal bay.

From a silencing perspective, having a 3.5" bay is IMO not nearly as useful as having a 5.25" bay. My case proposal uses a cage with two 5.25" bays, which is not significantly bulkier than a 5.25" + 3.5" bays. Note that while I explicitely include side mounting points for a couple of 3.5" drives, these are crammed into empty spaces which are meant to provide airflow to the drives.

My experience with enclosing notebook drives leads me to feel that you can get MUCH better results with a 5.25" sized enclosure than a 3.5" sized enclosure. My PSP case enclosures are roughly the size of a 5.25" drive, and I consider them pretty close to the borderline. I'm not sure you can get much smaller and still acheive absolute silence.

id want 1x 120mm fan punchout at either the rear or bottom/rear of the case(if you put the exhaust on the bottom near the rear though you'd have to mount the motherboard upside down inside the case.), but dont place the fan on the external panel of the case. rather somewhere in the middle. with the hard drive bay in a wind tunnel behind the fan like they are in the P180, and in front of the fan have the CPU. and then have the wind tunnel discharge the hot air from the case at the 120mm fan punchout.

I really don't like the idea of mounting the motherboard upside-down. It seriously reduces the efficiency of heat pipe based CPU and GPU coolers. It also makes working on the computer a nightmare.

So let's keep everything right-side-up. Placing the drives linearly along the same front->back airflow path as the CPU basically means your case is at least as big as mine. If your case is an SFF, so is mine.

The placement of this fan is a bit of a puzzle. You talk of putting it "somewhere in the middle", but then you talk of putting the fan in front of the hard drive bay like in the P180. That means putting the fan in the front, which is worse than putting the fan in the rear.

Instead, it would seem to make sense to put the fan in the rear of the hard drive tunnel. That places the fan in the midpoint of the case. But then, you've got power cables to worry about--and worse, PATA cables (notebook drives still use PATA almost exclusively). So, you'd want to turn the drives 90 degrees so they're sideways--just like in my proposed case layout design.

the powersupply like i stated earlier would be external.

This is something I'd kind of like to see, but I view the advantages of using a standard ATX PSU outweigh the disadvantages. Comparing my proposed case to a typical SFF, the standard ATX PSU adds maybe only an inch or two to the overall height.

[IsaacKuo]

Isaac:

As mentioned by Ackelind, your SFF layout has already been produced by Trigem computers in the form of the Kloss PC. With some minor mods, this thing has the potential to give the Shuttle Zen a run for its money.

With those two 40mm fans in the rear of the PSU? I somehow doubt it.

As far as I can tell, the Kloss PC is nothing like what I'm proposing. The only vague similarity I can detect is that it is also split between an upper section and a lower section. Everything else is different. It's a mess of fans and intakes and exhausts, and uses neither standard ATX mobos nor standard ATX PSU.

[Devonavar]

With those two 40mm fans in the rear of the PSU? I somehow doubt it.

As far as I can tell, the Kloss PC is nothing like what I'm proposing. The only vague similarity I can detect is that it is also split between an upper section and a lower section. Everything else is different. It's a mess of fans and intakes and exhausts, and uses neither standard ATX mobos nor standard ATX PSU.

Only one 40mm fan in the rear, the other is just a vent without a hole. Because the PSU doesn't have to exhaust CPU or VGA heat, the 40mm fan actually isn't the main source of noise, although it does make for a noise floor that can't quite reach silence. It is fairly quiet though.

[Aris]

issackuo: reguardless, a full atx case is not a SFF case, it may be a small tower, but it wont be a SFF case. which is the topic of the thread. SFF stands for (Small Form Factor) and a standard ATX is not small. mATX is small hence the little m in front standing for "Micro".

if you would like to further your discussion about your ideal full atx small tower case in your own thread, go for it. But please dont hijack my thread to further your own questions/opinions on an off topic discussion.

[pandamonium54]

issackuo: reguardless, a full atx case is not a SFF case, it may be a small tower, but it wont be a SFF case. which is the topic of the thread. SFF stands for (Small Form Factor) and a standard ATX is not small. mATX is small hence the little m in front standing for "Micro".

if you would like to further your discussion about your ideal full atx small tower case in your own thread, go for it. But please dont hijack my thread to further your own questions/opinions on an off topic discussion.

I'm going to have to disagree with you here. "Small" is too subjective a term to work with, and issackuo's proposal can be compact enough for many people to consider small enough for SFF. Full-size ATX boards, IMO, are pretty large, but clever spacial placement and orientation can nullify that.

Besides, the ATX spec doesn't dictate that all "ATX" boards must be full size. Even if a board is slightly too large to fit mATX spec, it is lumped into the ATX category. I've worked with some ATX boards that are thinner than most mATX boards.

[Aris]

Besides, the ATX spec doesn't dictate that all "ATX" boards must be full size. Even if a board is slightly too large to fit mATX spec, it is lumped into the ATX category. I've worked with some ATX boards that are thinner than most mATX boards.

yes, but if your going to design a case, you cant do it for just the "smaller" full size ATX mobo's. if you are going to do a case that supports full size ATX boards it has to adhear to the standard and be able to support all sizes of full size ATX boards that also adhere to the standard.

granted ive seen some small sized cases that support full size motherboards, but i highly doubt you can beat the size of a shuttle zen in any configuration while at the same time being able to support all full size ATX motherboards.

i never intended this thread to turn into a discussion over exact layouts of specific people's ideal case designs. i just wanted to get opinions of things people would like to see in a case, reguardless of its overall design. like i stated earlier, i could care less how its put together as long as it meets my needs(which i listed in my initial post)

mabey im to blame for not specify'ing what exactly i wanted this thread to be about.

i wanted to see people come in and say things like "i saw someone do this one thing on this one case that i thought was really cool", and then discuss how well that type of thing would work in a SFF mATX or shuttle style case.

[IsaacKuo]

yes, but if your going to design a case, you cant do it for just the "smaller" full size ATX mobo's. if you are going to do a case that supports full size ATX boards it has to adhear to the standard and be able to support all sizes of full size ATX boards that also adhere to the standard.

Umm...no you don't. In my case, I chose to NOT support any ATX boards which extend further forward than the usual front standoffs.

i highly doubt you can beat the size of a shuttle zen in any configuration while at the same time being able to support all full size ATX motherboards.

The Shuttle Zen? No, not that particular model of Shuttle (it's their smallest, AFAIK). However, most Shuttle SFFs have mainboards which are similar in size to a full size ATX board. My full size ATX mobo Black Marble SFF is similar in size and shape to a classic Shuttle. It's just that the connector backplanes on a Shuttle mainboard are on a short side rather than a long side.

i wanted to see people come in and say things like "i saw someone do this one thing on this one case that i thought was really cool", and then discuss how well that type of thing would work in a SFF mATX or shuttle style case.

I'm sorry for steering the discussion into a different direction. Honestly, I look down upon your intended idea. What's the point of slapping together a fantasy list of a bunch of "really cool" features that are IMPOSSIBLE to combine together into an actual device? What's the point?

[MikeC]

However, most Shuttle SFFs have mainboards which are similar in size as a full size ATX board.

Must be a typo or something. Most Shuttle SFFs have mainboards that are smaller than any micro-ATX.

[IsaacKuo]

However, most Shuttle SFFs have mainboards which are similar in size as a full size ATX board.

Must be a typo or something. Most Shuttle SFFs have mainboards that are smaller than any micro-ATX.

Really? Oh, I stand corrected, then. For some reason I had thought the mainboards typically extended all the way to the forward edge.

[MikeC]

Really? Oh, I stand corrected, then. For some reason I had thought the mainboards typically extended all the way to the forward edge.

Oh, you do have a point about the length. A typical mATX board measures about 9" square. A full ATX board measures 9.5x12". Typical SFF boards don't go beyond 8" width and are usually 10-11" deep. The board on the Zen measures 7"x10".

So I was wrong. The overall dimensions for a typical SFF board is a bit rectagular while the mTAX is nearly square, and the overall area is probably slightly bigger for the SFF -- 81" sq vs. 70~110" sq for Shuttle SFF (the 110 size is recent -- they have become bigger in the last generation.)