I have to this point built only quiet low-power inexpensive systems (Via C3, Geode) and have used Windows 98 and Me to run them.
Now I am pondering a system for my mother which would use XP (or whatever OS is current at the time) and where it would be desireable for the hardware to be at least adequate for a few years.
So I'm looking for that magical equation of speed and value and low noise where all are perhaps compromised for the best possible outcome. I'm quite overwhelmed by, and don't know a heluvalot about, all the available processors. I'm pretty sure that the new dual-core/high performance per watt offerings from Intel and AMD are way out of price range.
What I'm really trying to find out, then, is what is the best value, performance, easy coolability processor out there.
Any opinions would be much appreciated, and if they include appropriate motherboards as well, doubly so.
This won't be a gaming rig, so that level of performance isn't needed.
TIA
Best processor for value/performance/coolability?
Moderators: NeilBlanchard, Ralf Hutter, sthayashi, Lawrence Lee
AMD Sempron 3000 and above (socket 754). Has CnQ, easily sufficient for surfing, email, watching DVD's etc, anything that your mother is likely to use it for. Pair this with a motherboard with integrated graphics and sound and you've got a cheap, ready-made PC. Also prices of socket 754 CPU's will get even cheaper as the new AM2 processors are introduced.what is the best value, performance, easy coolability processor out there.
As to the motherboard, I am using a Winfast Foxconn 760GXK8MC but any cheap socket 754 with integrated graphics and CnQ support will do.
I would recomend an AM2 based system which is the new AMD platform. It is now possible to build a low end quiet system on the same platform as the highest end system unlike sockets 754 and 939. An AM2 sempron 64 3500+ is 100 bucks and a suitable motherboard with onboard graphics can be found for $80. The semprons above 3100+ come with cool and quiet which undervolts and underclocks the processor to 1.1V and 1Ghz when the computer is sitting idle. Also, pick up a minimum of 1Gb DDR2 RAM
Here is a link to a good motherboard. Onboard video is good enough for mom and should last her another 5 years. You might consider a board with DVI output except the ASUS out now appears to have problems.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6813138027
Here is a link to a good motherboard. Onboard video is good enough for mom and should last her another 5 years. You might consider a board with DVI output except the ASUS out now appears to have problems.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6813138027
By far, the sweetest low to mid-end deals I've found are Socket 754 Sempron 3100+ CPU/mobo bundles from Fry's/Fry's Outpost. The problem is patience--they don't run the deals all the time.
For a while, Fry's Outpost was doing a $80 CPU/mobo bundle for Socket 754 Sempron 3100+ with ECS NForce3 mobo. I love these--fast, cool, and very cheap! I'll bet they'll do the deal again, probably after Father's Day.
Just a couple days ago, I picked up the same bundle from a Fry's brick-and-mortar store in Dallas. But it was on sale for $70, making it an even better buy!
I see no reason whatsoever to go with AM2. It costs more, and your mother simply won't need the potential expandability.
For a while, Fry's Outpost was doing a $80 CPU/mobo bundle for Socket 754 Sempron 3100+ with ECS NForce3 mobo. I love these--fast, cool, and very cheap! I'll bet they'll do the deal again, probably after Father's Day.
Just a couple days ago, I picked up the same bundle from a Fry's brick-and-mortar store in Dallas. But it was on sale for $70, making it an even better buy!
I see no reason whatsoever to go with AM2. It costs more, and your mother simply won't need the potential expandability.
I disagree with both of the above. The coolest, most efficient will be a 90nm S754 Sempron undervolted under 1.1V. Generally a new Sempron 2500, 2600, or 2800+ on a motherboard with good CPU undervolting in BIOS. You may also find C'n'Q enabled Semprons/Athlons that can undervolt this low, but I haven't had any success with the newest E6 stepping chips.
AM2 is the least efficient K8 desktop platform. The efficiency order using the same chipset from high to low is S754, S939, AM2. My guess is that all AM2 processors have the 1.1V limit problem like the E6 chips. If not then that would be a good reason to go AM2.
Also, AM2 performs poorer than S939 with equivalent grade memory. AMD processors, especially those with smaller caches, benefit more from low latency memory than from increased memory bandwidth. DDR2 is just designed to solve a different problem. (DDR2 is a perfect match for a Netburst processor.)
However, there is one thing that might make me choose an AM2 motherboard. A much faster integrated graphics (IGP) that might actually perform significantly better due to the increased memory bandwidth of AM2. No, such IGP has been yet released (maybe RS600?). The current fastest IGPs don't even take full advantage of Dual channel DDR400 on S939.
My final answer is my E6 Sempron 2500+ 1.4GHz @ 0.88V, and it wants a new home too!
AM2 is the least efficient K8 desktop platform. The efficiency order using the same chipset from high to low is S754, S939, AM2. My guess is that all AM2 processors have the 1.1V limit problem like the E6 chips. If not then that would be a good reason to go AM2.
Also, AM2 performs poorer than S939 with equivalent grade memory. AMD processors, especially those with smaller caches, benefit more from low latency memory than from increased memory bandwidth. DDR2 is just designed to solve a different problem. (DDR2 is a perfect match for a Netburst processor.)
However, there is one thing that might make me choose an AM2 motherboard. A much faster integrated graphics (IGP) that might actually perform significantly better due to the increased memory bandwidth of AM2. No, such IGP has been yet released (maybe RS600?). The current fastest IGPs don't even take full advantage of Dual channel DDR400 on S939.
My final answer is my E6 Sempron 2500+ 1.4GHz @ 0.88V, and it wants a new home too!
I'll note that the cheap Fry's bundle motherboard, this ECS NFORCE3-A, does NOT have undervolting options in the BIOS. It has options to overclock and overvolt, but no options to underclock or undervolt.
Nevertheless, I stand by the recommendation on the grounds of "value". At the default clock/voltage settings, it's plenty cool enough to easily silence.
Oh, this mobo doesn't have integrated graphics. For a dirt cheap video card, this $6 deal for a 16MB Matrox Millennium G450 Dual Head AGP4x is unbeatable. For 2d work, Matrox quality is the best and the fact that it can support two monitors is a bonus! I picked up one of these dirt cheap cards and am very happy with its video quality.
Nevertheless, I stand by the recommendation on the grounds of "value". At the default clock/voltage settings, it's plenty cool enough to easily silence.
Oh, this mobo doesn't have integrated graphics. For a dirt cheap video card, this $6 deal for a 16MB Matrox Millennium G450 Dual Head AGP4x is unbeatable. For 2d work, Matrox quality is the best and the fact that it can support two monitors is a bonus! I picked up one of these dirt cheap cards and am very happy with its video quality.
I would say that Fry's deal is great.IsaacKuo wrote:I'll note that the cheap Fry's bundle motherboard, this ECS NFORCE3-A, does NOT have undervolting options in the BIOS. It has options to overclock and overvolt, but no options to underclock or undervolt.
Nevertheless, I stand by the recommendation on the grounds of "value". At the default clock/voltage settings, it's plenty cool enough to easily silence.
Yes, and any C'n'Q K8 (Sempron 3000+ and above) and really any motherboard = 1.1V operation at least and decently cool. If you get an older processor you may be able to get it down to 0.800V.
Yes, but clockspeed requires additional voltage for stability. There is a linear relationship with voltage required for stable clockspeed, and because power consumption is worse than the square of voltage. The most power efficient processor is the one with the slowest running on the smallest voltage.jackylman wrote:The 2600 is only a few dollars more and is 1.6 GHz vs. 1.4 GHzQuietOC wrote:My final answer is my E6 Sempron 2500+ 1.4GHz
If your Sempron 2600+ can run at 1.6 GHz at the same voltage as my 1.4 GHz Sempron 2500+ then it may be a wash. My 2500+ needs 0.98V to run at 1.6 GHz. And at that speed it still has 128kB more L2.
I think you missed the "performance" part of the post. A 1.4Ghz chip is not performance. While it may be sufficient, the poster stated that performance was a factor. This is why I went with the AM2 platform. If he decides that his mom needs more performance in a couple years (she wants to encode/decode h.264 home videos with Windows Vista), he will have the option of upgrading the processor and dumping in some more RAM without having to reinstall windows on a new platform. If he goes with S754, he gets a great platform (i love mine) but is investing in a obsolete platform incapable of supporting dual core chips. A sempron at 1.1V is still a low power system.
When i build a system for my family, I always try to keep it simple. I use off the shelf components and keep the noise to a resonable level. i don't try to go for the ultimate quiet that i do with my machines because family just does not care. Using off the shelf components, he can build a machine that turns off the cpu fan when idle, and the only other fan is the power supply. This is plenty quiet for me and should surely satisfy his mother. I also try to avoid very cheap components like ECS motherboards because I don't want to have any stability problems. I don't want to have to drive over to my moms house because her computer crashed again! If you stick to 1st tier parts then you loose the price advantage of the S754.
Still, if upgradeablity is not a priority, then S754 provides the same performance as AM2 and parts are easier to find right now. Personally, I'm not going to make the same mistake I did with AGP and go with the old standard thinking that it still has some life left in it only to get screwed when the best video cards are PCI-e. Think what advances could come with AMD on 65nm and you are stuck with S754 and reinstalling Windows on your moms computer yet again.
When i build a system for my family, I always try to keep it simple. I use off the shelf components and keep the noise to a resonable level. i don't try to go for the ultimate quiet that i do with my machines because family just does not care. Using off the shelf components, he can build a machine that turns off the cpu fan when idle, and the only other fan is the power supply. This is plenty quiet for me and should surely satisfy his mother. I also try to avoid very cheap components like ECS motherboards because I don't want to have any stability problems. I don't want to have to drive over to my moms house because her computer crashed again! If you stick to 1st tier parts then you loose the price advantage of the S754.
Still, if upgradeablity is not a priority, then S754 provides the same performance as AM2 and parts are easier to find right now. Personally, I'm not going to make the same mistake I did with AGP and go with the old standard thinking that it still has some life left in it only to get screwed when the best video cards are PCI-e. Think what advances could come with AMD on 65nm and you are stuck with S754 and reinstalling Windows on your moms computer yet again.
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~El~Jefe~
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Sempron that can do cool and quiet on an AM2 system with some decent mhz like 2.0 would be ideal for cheap, upgradeable, fast, and easy to make silent.
he will ahve to buy new ram anyways, he could just go get 2x512 meg sticks of ddr2 ram for very cheap.
I would recommend a board with nvidia 6150 graphics if there is one for am2. i havent quiet looked at that yet. 6150 is best value for performance for most anyone.
he will ahve to buy new ram anyways, he could just go get 2x512 meg sticks of ddr2 ram for very cheap.
I would recommend a board with nvidia 6150 graphics if there is one for am2. i havent quiet looked at that yet. 6150 is best value for performance for most anyone.
A ) the 930 D is hot. TDP is 95W, max dissipation would be even higher. Why buy a hot CPU that you have to fight to get cool when you can buy a cool-running CPU straight out of the box (and cheaper to boot), ie the AMD Sempron, either AM2 or S754.tay wrote:If you want the best usability for daily tasks get a dual core or HT CPU. I would reccomend a 930D for $200. Can be undervolted/underclocked and used in a quiet machine.
B ) the OP ruled out dual-core Intel/AMD in the first post.
We are not talking about building some kind of mega gaming rig here. I expect this PC will only be used for internet, e-mail and viewing 2D media; so it's integrated graphics and a Sempron all the way. After all, this is exactly the market that the Sempron was designed for: a budget processor that can easily handle everyday tasks.
Fuck I missed the mother part. Personally I find single core chips a complete pain to use and waste of time especially with switching between many apps. I prefer my dad's Prescott 2.8 user experience but it randomly crashes and only has 1 GB of ram. Anyway a 930D undervolted can be easily brought into the 70W range which is easy to cool quietly.
Way to sell him on the Prescott option!I prefer my dad's Prescott 2.8 user experience but it randomly crashes
...still more than the max TDP of the Sempron. Don't get me wrong, I'm not blind to the benefits of multi-core CPU's, I just don't think that's what's needed in this particular situation. It's reliability, coolability and value which are the key criteria here, all of which the Sempron scores top marks on. I'm probably beginning to sound like a stuck record, but that's my opinion anyway. The OP seems to have abandoned this thread, so I will probably leave it there.Anyway a 930D undervolted can be easily brought into the 70W range which is ...
How!!!?~El~Jefe~ wrote:I would recommend a board with nvidia 6150 graphics if there is one for am2. i havent quiet looked at that yet. 6150 is best value for performance for most anyone.
There is just no basis in reality for your statements.
AM2 is okay, just not as good price/performanc/power as S754.
S939 is slightly better than AM2.
Why in the world 6150? It has some nice features, but none that are needed, and its hotter than 6100, certainly hotter than ATI or VIA or SIS IGPs. Unless you are talking certain types of video decoding there is really no performance difference between the 6100 and 6150.
If the OP is used to C3 and Geodes, even a 1.4GHz Sempron is more than twice as fast as what he is used to. If he wants more speed the little Sempron 2500+ can run at 2.5GHz at default voltage.
If he wants 2.0GHz fine, a 90nm K8 needs at least 100% (really closer to 200%) more power at 2.0Ghz than 1.4Ghz while giving considerably less than 40% additional performance.
If gets stuck with a K8 with the 1.1V problem. Then sure many can run at 2.0GHz at 1.1V. It is NOT the most efficient K8, but it is okay.
As far as Press-hots: Intel does have efficient chips. Just not anything based on the Netburst/Pentium 4. Something from the Pentium M/Core line, but good luck finding an affordably motherboard. There's the Tualatin P3/Celerons, which are inexpensive, but they are basically equivalent to an Athlon XP with a slower bus.
If you want power efficiency get the slowest Sempron and an undervoltable motherboard with an IGP. VIA/SIS/ATI/nVidia in order from cool to hot.
If you want performance per buck (and not overclock) get a fast Sempron or maybe a 65nm Netburst P4 (dual or single). There are good reasons to get either. Sempron + AM2 is a decent choice here, but not really faster than Sempron + S754.
If you want insane cheap speed + you are willing to overclock: a Sempron + Tforce 6100 = 2.6~3.0 GHz for about $125. A $45 Ninja would be nice if you want this all to be quiet. The Tforce gives you the option of loading BIOS settings so you don't need to be wasting all this power all the time. I can waste the power I want when I want and save it when I want. All I need to do is reboot and load a set of BIOS settings.
So, far no Ninja for AM2.
Thanks to all!
I just want to say that I didn't abandon the thread, and have in fact been reading the posts with great attention. I do, however, live on the east coast and go to bed early, so some of this had to wait until this morning.
One more little question -- there are Semprons and there are Sempron 64s being offered (mostly Sempron 64s.) Are the 64s any hotter or any cooler for the same model number, or does it make no difference? Are the respondents in this thread talking about 64s, or, again, is there no need to differentiate for the purposes here?
I just want to say that I didn't abandon the thread, and have in fact been reading the posts with great attention. I do, however, live on the east coast and go to bed early, so some of this had to wait until this morning.
One more little question -- there are Semprons and there are Sempron 64s being offered (mostly Sempron 64s.) Are the 64s any hotter or any cooler for the same model number, or does it make no difference? Are the respondents in this thread talking about 64s, or, again, is there no need to differentiate for the purposes here?
It's confusing. Officially, there's no such term as "Sempron 64". The later Semprons which are compatable with 64 bit processing are officially called "Sempron" just like all other Semprons. This means that with the official terminology, there's no obvious distinction.
The Semprons I've gotten with the Fry's bundles are, AFAICT, not 64 bit compatable.
I don't think it has any effect on temperatures or heat (when running 32bit code), but someone please correct me if I'm wrong!
The Semprons I've gotten with the Fry's bundles are, AFAICT, not 64 bit compatable.
I don't think it has any effect on temperatures or heat (when running 32bit code), but someone please correct me if I'm wrong!
"Sempron 64" = K8 Sempron with 64-bit enabled.Reachable wrote: One more little question -- there are Semprons and there are Sempron 64s being offered (mostly Sempron 64s.) Are the 64s any hotter or any cooler for the same model number, or does it make no difference? Are the respondents in this thread talking about 64s, or, again, is there no need to differentiate for the purposes here?
"Sempron 64" is not an official AMD name.
Most 64-bit enabled Semprons are the "E6" revision chips, but some are older chips (like the original 90nm D0 stepping Sempron 3100+ I got from StarMicro has 64-bit enabled.) Both "Paris" = 130nm K8 Sempron and "Palermo" = 90nm K8 Sempron cores (D0 through E6 stepping) are full Athlon 64s with some features turned off. What features are turned off depends on which specific Sempron you buy. "64" just means 64-bit capability isn't turned off.
As far as I know all "E6" revision chips are 64-bit enabled, all S754 Sempron 3000+ and higher are C'n'Q enabled, while all Semprons 2800+ and lower are C'n'Q disabled.
The process and stepping mainly determine efficiency, but some of it is just luck of the draw. You can somewhat optimize your draw if you find out batch codes and year/week codes, have access to a database of overclocking results with those codes listed, and can hand pick out a specific chip from some others. Sounds like some work!
The E6 stepping should be highly desireable as it tends to be the most efficient design. C'n'Q support should be highly desireable for power savings and ability to undervolt and underclock on any motherboard. Except E6 + C'n'Q support seems to prevent any undervolting lower than 1.1V.
There is no great advantge in getting a 64-bit enabled Sempron unless you are going to run a 64-bit operating system, in which case you must get a 64-bit chip.
The older Semprons, like the deal Isaac mentioned, tend to be cheaper.
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~El~Jefe~
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6150 might be closer to actually running something possibly useful in the future. it doesnt run HOT it runs hot-er. 6100 is ok as well, but if you can get the faster, im not sure if i would bother with it.
am2 vs 754?? 754 is GHETTO. 754 is great until this new am2 came out, now its obsolete. Check out the boards I post here, they are obviously the replacements for the 754 idea.
why on earth would you plague anyone with a 2 version old system when they are buying it now?
the way this guy is talking now about 64 bit semprons, I am thinking that honestly, he should just get a dual core am2, the low, cold one, or at least, a regular 90nm a64, non-sempron, single core and just get the cheapest one of that day. That would be a 3500+ A64 AM2 chip. At least it the whole system will be supported for a long long time comming.
Asus Board Cheap
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Epox Rox
ati200G is a decent thing, it has been known to have pathetic USB 2.0 performance though, so I duno how i feel about it anymore. It is not being offered on this generation of AM2 yet. The new ati chipset sounds fantastic and cool running but isnt really out there yet.
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am2 vs 754?? 754 is GHETTO. 754 is great until this new am2 came out, now its obsolete. Check out the boards I post here, they are obviously the replacements for the 754 idea.
why on earth would you plague anyone with a 2 version old system when they are buying it now?
the way this guy is talking now about 64 bit semprons, I am thinking that honestly, he should just get a dual core am2, the low, cold one, or at least, a regular 90nm a64, non-sempron, single core and just get the cheapest one of that day. That would be a 3500+ A64 AM2 chip. At least it the whole system will be supported for a long long time comming.
Asus Board Cheap
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Epox Rox
ati200G is a decent thing, it has been known to have pathetic USB 2.0 performance though, so I duno how i feel about it anymore. It is not being offered on this generation of AM2 yet. The new ati chipset sounds fantastic and cool running but isnt really out there yet.
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Value. BTW, it looks like 754 is going to outlive 939.~El~Jefe~ wrote:why on earth would you plague anyone with a 2 version old system when they are buying it now?
No. He's only asking if there's a difference in the heat generated.the way this guy is talking now about 64 bit semprons, I am thinking that honestly, he should just get a dual core am2,
Look. Not everyone is interested in CPU upgradability. I'm not. The only times I upgrade is when there's a big leap in performance. So far, that has always meant I needed to upgrade to a new socket type also. I'm hardly alone in this.
This guy is building a machine for his mother, and most likely she will NEVER need a CPU upgrade. Seriously, the OP is used to C3 and Geode systems. Compared to them, a Sempron 3000 is scorching fast.
For web browsing and Microsoft Word, the difference between a "ghetto" socket 754 Sempron and a fancy schmancy dual core AM2 will be barely perceptible. Heck, even a C3 or Geode can handle those tasks acceptably--but a socket 754 system can be significantly faster and LESS expensive.
I'm with Isaac on this one. He's looking for hardware that will be "at least adequate for a few years." In a few years AM2, 939, 754, and 755 will all be obselete, so there's no point in picking the socket du jour just to have the newest option. Either 754 or 939 have lots of mobo choices, but 754 has better cpu choices right now.
I would totaly be willing to spend an extra $30 to get the latest platform. It's up to the OP though what he determines value. I consider the up to date platform to hold some kind of value. I might also be mistaken but I believe that the extra cost of the platform can be offset by the lower costs of DDR2. This might have changed though since i last checked.
There is really not a whole lot of difference between 6100, 6150, and the ATI chipset. The Via and SIS graphics are not up to par with ATI and Nvidia but their chipsets are fine. Like the chipsets make any difference with an onchip memory controler anyways. The reason I would go for the 6150 is that they tend to have DVI output which may or may not be inportant to the OP. I like the DVI because i have LCD monitors and HDTVs that can use it. Otherwise, the graphics are fine for 2D applications and most video including HD. I've seen some graphs somewhere that showed the performance of the 6100 and 6150 video wise as pretty nearly the same. Both could handle 1080p video. Wish i could find that data.
There is really not a whole lot of difference between 6100, 6150, and the ATI chipset. The Via and SIS graphics are not up to par with ATI and Nvidia but their chipsets are fine. Like the chipsets make any difference with an onchip memory controler anyways. The reason I would go for the 6150 is that they tend to have DVI output which may or may not be inportant to the OP. I like the DVI because i have LCD monitors and HDTVs that can use it. Otherwise, the graphics are fine for 2D applications and most video including HD. I've seen some graphs somewhere that showed the performance of the 6100 and 6150 video wise as pretty nearly the same. Both could handle 1080p video. Wish i could find that data.
In what way? Are any new CPU's coming out for them? I'm pretty sure that they're both officially "dead".IsaacKuo wrote:BTW, it looks like 754 is going to outlive 939.
Will AM2 be obsolete in a few years? I don't forsee AMD changing sockets again anytime soon. Yeah, there's DDR3 at the end of this year (at the earliest), but look at how long they hung on to DDR. It really depends on the kinds of tasks that are planned for the system. If the processor is the limiting factor, then having a current socket will be very helpful. If new graphics are needed because of limited functionality/performance of the IGP, then he/she can use the expansion slot.Rusty075 wrote:In a few years AM2, 939, 754, and 755 will all be obselete, so there's no point in picking the socket du jour just to have the newest option.
AM2 is the way to go here, because we know 65nm K8L's will be coming out next year. By 2008, one can pick up a dual core K8L for cheap and cool it with the same apparatus.
For the most economy, I'd go with a 754 Sempron. For slightly more performance (but still largely economical), I'd go with a 939 Athlon64. The socket 939 Athlon64 3000+ is now $96 on newegg, and the 3200+ is $103, which now makes both of them decidedly "budget" processors. The Sempron is about ~$70.
I guess the big question would be: is the extra $30 worth the performance? You'll be capable of upgrading a bit further with a 939-based MB, although I doubt it matters much.
Flip a coin--either option is probably going to be more than suitable for your mother.
I guess the big question would be: is the extra $30 worth the performance? You'll be capable of upgrading a bit further with a 939-based MB, although I doubt it matters much.
Flip a coin--either option is probably going to be more than suitable for your mother.
In the sense that AMD plans to continue shipping 754 processors a year after it stops shipping 939 processors.jackylman wrote:In what way? Are any new CPU's coming out for them? I'm pretty sure that they're both officially "dead".IsaacKuo wrote:BTW, it looks like 754 is going to outlive 939.
From dailytech.com:
"According to AMD documentation, all socket 939 processors will stop shipping Q2 2007 with final orders occurring nearly half a year before end-date. AMD Roadmaps have socket 939 end of life (EOL) in Q4'06, while socket 754 is EOL Q4'07."
I suspect it will be the same as the current S754 lineup, the 62W number is indiscriminately applied to the whole range, but the lower end chips (<3100+) are closer to the 35W mark. That said, I haven't found my 3400+ s754 Sempron to be noticeably hotter than my 3000+, although they both tend to run at 1Ghz most of the time.How's the AM2 Sempron ? Are the 62W ones really consuming so much more power than the 35W energy efficient pieces? It seems the only difference is core voltage (1.35/1.40 vs 1.20/1.35).