New to quiet PCs and confused - what new case to buy?

[fmcgraw]

Hello all,

I'm currently spec'ing out a new Core 2 Duo system and am having lots of difficulty in determining what new case to buy. Some I can probably see locally (Antec), but others I would probably have to buy on faith (Lian Li). I've read through all of SPCR over the last few weeks and browsed through the last 6 months of posts in the Cases forum and still have many questions. I'm not looking for a completely silent PC, but definitely want something quieter than I have. Sorry this is a bit of a long first post but thanks for reading and for any guidance you can provide.

Current System (key components only):

• Thermaltake Xaser III case - purchased years ago when I knew nothing about the differences in cases. It's not a bad case (has 7 80mm fans) but I know I can do better (meaning quieter), plus it's HUGE
• P4 3.4E (Prescott, socket 478) with standard Intel sink/fan
• Abit IC-7 MB
• 2 GB OCZ PC-3200 DDR 400 (2-3-2-6 timing)
• Leaadtek 6800GT w/stock cooler/fan
• 13GB HD out of an old Compaq (not sure of brand but it's noisy) + 30GB Maxtor + 250 GB Samsung SATA II (just bought for Vista BETA)
• Rosewill 450w PS - my weakest point currently and the source of much of my extra noise
• X-Fi Fatality - bought recently at ZipZoom because of $80 rebate, replaced an Audigy 2

I'm waiting to buy the new system after Vista comes out because I want to buy a new video card that is DX10 compliant AND I don't want to upgrade from XP but would rather do a clean install. I also hope that by then DDR2 prices will have fallen further, and motherboards will be more plentiful for the Core 2. My system is used for heavy gaming so I'm looking to get the best I can afford. Most games are FPS with some RPG, such as FEAR, Far Cry, Splinter Cell, Oblivion etc.

Anyway, here is what I'm looking at for the new system:

• Core 2 Duo E6700 - I know the extreme is a little faster, but I'm not into overclocking and all the benchmarks I've seen put the 6700 in a virtaul dead-heat with the X6800.
• 2 GB Corsair 6400C4PRO DDR2-800
• Seagate Barracuda 7200.10 ST3320620AS 320GB Serial ATA 7200RPM Hard Drive w/16MB Buffer + my new Samsung 250GB SATA II
• Seasonic S12 600W
• X-Fi Fatality
• MB - no idea yet since so few are available. I'm thinking probably an nForce 590 based board that will allow SLI, though I don't know that I will do SLI initially
• Video Card - no idea yet since DX10 cards are not out. I'm hoping there will be a DX10 equivalent to the 7950GX2

Which brings me to cases. I'd like to replace the Xaser and go quieter, and hopefully smaller. I also very much want tool free, and a removeable MB tray would be nice but isn't a deal breaker. Here is what I'm thinking:

• Antec P180: saw at MicroCenter and truthfully thought it was pretty flimsy. Everything I've read says it's quiet, but not necessarily thermally efficient without modding, plus the non-inverted MB means long cable runs which can be problematic.
• Lian Li PC-101: the high quality of Lian Li appeals to me and it seems to have most of what I might want feature wise, but I'm still concerned about the thermal efficiency. The front fan does not seem to have access to much air. Does the inverted MB in combination with the PS at the bottom mean cable runs are the same as in a "standard" ATX case?
• Antec P150: it seems well regarded, especially here at SPCR. I've not done a lot of research on this one yet.
• Lian Li V1000 series: I've seen several people say how good it is in the forum, and I like the styling, but I'm still concerned about the thermal efficiency and how quiet it is. I would put quiet 120mm fans in (maybe Nexus)...would that help?
• Enermax Chakra: great price and the large and supposedly quiet 250mm fan is very interesting. Adding quiet 120mm fans front and rear seems to make this a very viable option for both sound and thermal efficiency. Has anyone had experience with this case yet? The one post I saw indicated no one had but maye since the thread started?? Here's the same link in the original thread to an online review: http://www.bigbruin.com/2006/chakra_1
• I've also considered Silverstone and some other brands but have not seen much readily available that appealed to me based on price(under $250), features, and styling, but I'm open to suggestion.

Last thoughts. Considering the Core 2 Duo's run so much cooler than the P4's, I assume there will be considerably less heat to dissipate than I have now, even under load. The bulk of the heat should come from the video card(s). With that in mind, I wonder if the Lian-Li cases might prove quiet and thermally efficient enough? I also assume this means I might get away with a less extreme CPU cooler? I had been planning on a Scyhthe Ninja, but maybe this will be overkill for the new CPU. I still think I'll do the Zalman VF-900 CU VGA Cooler, assuming it fits on whichever card I end up buying. I may even buy it now for my 6800GT and see if it helps. My room warms up considerably when I play games, which also means more noise as the fans try to cool the case.

I guess that's it. Thanks again for any words of wisdom.

David

[JohnnyWakko]

$0.02 on the BOX

I was a complete green noob to cases, had never even installed a MOBO and knew nothign about silenceing. I bought an Antec180b (as I thought it was the best looking box on the planet), i found installation was pess easy, I can also say it is not flimsy by any means, it can't be flimsy its friggin HEAVY! Why are you worried about thermo's if your getting Conroe? 180b sais "bye bye" to hot air.

$0.03 on PSU.
I bought my PSU (see sig) and its cables reached easily in the 180b, and could probably do with half their length.

[CoolZone]

despite no one responded in my thread,i can tell you this:
Antec P150 is way too small on the inside,you will have very BIG problems fitting the video card in it
Enermax Chakra:the 'quiet' 250mm fan is the problem.if it gets used or if it stops functioning,you won't be able to fix it if you are not any more in guaranty.
Also there is a problem with the cases A+ XClio 2,XClio 3.(the fan,and they are also small on the inside).
Besides the Lian Li i found an interesting case : A+ XBlade(http://www.apluscase.de/).It has a LOT of space inside and does not have a lot of leds to make it a 'circus' case(it does not have too much bling like the other cases).
Can you make more research besides this wonderful case i found to see if there are also options to buy a silent,cool and beautiful case?

[jwoolen01]

I recommend the pc-v1000. I recently moved my system to an Antec slk3000b, only to move it back into the Lian Li. It proved quieter and cooled just as well. It was also less prone to vibration and provided better cable management than the 3000b.

I have made some changes to my pc-v1000:

*added (4) 5.25" mesh bay covers
*suspended a Yate Loon D12SL-12 in the 5.25" drive bays
*removed drive rails in the HDD cages
*removed 1 HDD cage and added o-rings (from NoVibes) to the other.
*removed PSU plate.
*cut holes on the mainboard tray for better cable management.
(www.performance-pcs.com will do this for you if needed)

I have the first version of this case, so removing the drive rails, cages, and psu plate involved drilling out the rivots. The plus version of the pc-v1000 has screws on those components so removal would be a snap. If I had to buy a case again, it would be a pc-v1000plus.

[fmcgraw]

JohnnyWakko, thanks for your thoughts. I'm not completely ruling out the P180 and will look at it again, but I'm still concerned about the cabling questions.

jwoolen01, I appreciate your thoughts as well. The V1000 Plus II is probably at the top of my list and your experience helps me feel better about the case.

Coolzone, I agree the 250mm fan is the biggest concern with the Enermax, if it breaks where do you get a repalcement? I'm hoping someone will soon be able to speak to it from first hand knowledge as I'm still interested from a pricing standpoint. I've not seen the XBlade before but it does look interesting. I also went back and looked at the P150/Solo again and it does look like it might be a tight fit, and the review on SPCR even mentions how it might run how with a hot card, so the 150/Solo may be out of the running.

[cstup]

I too am looking at new cases. One for an existing P4-2.8 Prescott system, and another for a new Linux box I'm currently upgrading from a dual P3.

Coming from a "generic" server case on the P4 and an older Enlight case on the Linux box, I've been upgrading some of the components in an effort to help the noise.

For the P4, I put in a Seasonic S12-430, replaced the stock Intel cooler with one from Nexus (endpcnoise.com), and replaced some of the fans with much more quiet offerings. However, the case is just not well designed for flow, with terribly restrictive 80mm grills, etc.

So I too am looking at the overwhelming number of cases out there and can't decide what to get. I need something that can fit 4 5 1/4" exposed devices (CDR, DVDR, 2 hotswap HD enclosures), a floppy, and a single internal 3.5" drive.

These crazy "sideways" HD mounts don't interest me (how often do you need to look at the jumpers or see the cables anyway?), with EIDE I'd rather have the ability to have a standard arrangement, especially with a front fan blowing on them.

Seems 12cm fans are the way to go to keep flow up and noise down, so I'm concentrating there. Anyone have any suggestions for me as well?

Thanks!

[qviri]

Coolzone, I agree the 250mm fan is the biggest concern with the Enermax, if it breaks where do you get a repalcement?

A bigger concern could be, as raised by some members here, what does it do to your traditional front-to-back ATX airflow?

[Aris]

Coolzone, I agree the 250mm fan is the biggest concern with the Enermax, if it breaks where do you get a repalcement?

A bigger concern could be, as raised by some members here, what does it do to your traditional front-to-back ATX airflow?

I see way to many people here posting about "Bottom Front to Top Rear ATX Airflow". You do know that just because intel says it should be this way, doesnt mean its the only, or even the best way to do thing?

Take off the blinders and think for yourself on things.

About the 250mm fan. Everyone here agree's 120mm is better than 92mm, which is better than 80mm, which is better than 60mm etc etc. So why stop at 120mm? why not bigger? the only reason i can think is because fans larger than 120mm are harder to find and get easily. I remember not to long ago people said the exact same thing about 120mm fans. "their just too big, and too hard to find", now look at em, their everywhere. I like the idea of a huge fan that can run sub 1k rpm and be big enough to provide active cooling for every heat producing item in the case. Anything spinning that slow cant be very loud.

Their are reviews and articles that state over and over that any airflow, even if it seems to be insignificant, is imensly more effecient at cooling heatsinks than no airflow at all. Every time i see someone talking about a completely passive system someone brings up the point that a 5v 120mm nexus fan is inaudible, and will drop temps ALOT. Also ive seen many people that have testified that any fan spinning slower than 1000rpm is basically inaudible. This 250mm fan only spins at like 600-700rpm, even if the frequencies are horrible they would be so low and so soft i doubt you'd hear them anyhow.

[Felger Carbon]

...ive seen many people that have testified that any fan spinning slower than 1000rpm is basically inaudible. This 250mm fan only spins at like 600-700rpm...

The tip speed of a 250mm fan spinning at 500RPM is more than double the tip speed of a 120mm 1000RPM fan, and there are more blades, and the total blade area is over 4 times as great. Spinning blades make sounds.

[IsaacKuo]

About the 250mm fan. Everyone here agree's 120mm is better than 92mm, which is better than 80mm, which is better than 60mm etc etc. So why stop at 120mm? why not bigger?

Because it's harder to FIT a 250mm fan. There's really only one place to put a 250mm fan to utilize all of its airflow--in the side of the case with components receiving parallel airflow in all directions. If you widen the case to try to use front-to-back or bottom-to-top airflow, then half of its airflow simply misses everything.

The thing is...with a side fan the airflow still has to bend 90 degrees to get out of the case. And now you've got huge escape holes for sound in the side, front, and back.

OTOH, if you go with a non-traditional cube layout, then a 250mm fan might be used to good effect. I'm thinking of front-to-back airflow in a cubical tube, with the CPU, GPU, PSU, and hard drives each occupying its own quadrant of airflow. This still means some huge noise escape holes in the front and back, but at least now the airflow is straight and unobstructed.

In any case, utilizing a 250mm fan means making some radical changes to the rest of the computer.

(BTW, I do NOT agree that 120mm fans are better than 80mm fans. I'd say they're roughly equal, with one being better than the other depending on the situation.)

[Aris]

...ive seen many people that have testified that any fan spinning slower than 1000rpm is basically inaudible. This 250mm fan only spins at like 600-700rpm...

The tip speed of a 250mm fan spinning at 500RPM is more than double the tip speed of a 120mm 1000RPM fan, and there are more blades, and the total blade area is over 4 times as great. Spinning blades make sounds.

Fan blade noise isnt really a problem though. Its the motor noise that always has the annoying frequencies and odd ticks and whatnot. Fan blade noise consists of that soft "Whooosh" sound of air that most people find very subtle and unobtrusive.

Isaac: you talk about all the holes that would be needed that owuld let sound escape. What sound? the only fan you'd need is this one 250mm, and at stock 12v it spins at half the speed of the low speed yate loons that are so popular around here. It would be putting directed airflow over every major heat producing item in the entire case. About the only thing that may still need a fan is your PSU (depending on placement). Undervolting the fan down to 7v would drop rpm to around 400rpm.

i say just rip out all the case fans, open up all the vent holes. Slap one of these on the side of the case, and let the hot air find its way out wherever it wants. You dont have to worry about dead spots because the fan is large enough to put directed airflow on all major heat producing items.

The only other major sound source i could see is hard drives, to which you could either move to notebook drives or place the hard drives in some sort of sound dampening enclosure like the Smartdrive enclosures.

[epiphane]

Just to update my experience w/ LL cases

http://forums.silentpcreview.com/viewtopic.php?t=28987

still very happy w/ the results I get from both cases, even during the +100 F degree 2 week heat wave we had recently

my .02's...buy the best u can afford if u plan on keeping the system for long term

Cheers

[IsaacKuo]

Fan blade noise isnt really a problem though. Its the motor noise that always has the annoying frequencies and odd ticks and whatnot. Fan blade noise consists of that soft "Whooosh" sound of air that most people find very subtle and unobtrusive.

On most of my fans, the "whoosh" sound is the most annoying part. Good quiet fans have very little motor noise, but airflow noise is more or less unavoidable. Also, lower frequency noises are more difficult to absorb/block because it goes around better than high frequency noises.

Isaac: you talk about all the holes that would be needed that owuld let sound escape. What sound?

For most people, the hard drive is the biggest offender. On most of my rigs, hard drive noise isn't a factor but electrical noises are. Most of my motherboards make funny chirping sounds and many of my mobos/PSUs exhibit coil whine. On some of these, these noises are LOUD--much louder than a suspended 3.5" hard drive.

I used to be of the opinion that a free and open case was the best, on the theory that free airflow leads to reduced fan/airflow noise. In other words, it's best to not generate noise in the first place. However, I have since discovered that there are some noises you can't avoid generating in the first place. It's quite vexing.

Fortunately, most of these unavoidable noises are high frequency, so I've had a lot of success with my "U turn" philosophy (all intakes and exhausts to the rear).

i say just rip out all the case fans, open up all the vent holes. Slap one of these on the side of the case, and let the hot air find its way out wherever it wants. You dont have to worry about dead spots because the fan is large enough to put directed airflow on all major heat producing items.

You need to give the host air enough escape area to exhaust without restricting airflow. Any airflow restriction means turbulent noise. For sufficient area, the entire back and the entire front need to be open. Even so, the bending airflow paths virtually guarantee airflow restrictiveness and turbulent airflow noise. The straight-thru layout I suggest would minimize the turbulence noise.

The importance of minimizing airflow restrictiveness can be demonstrated by experimenting with a 120mm fan and a 120mm fan PSU. If you run an undervolted quiet 120mm fan in open air, it can typically be virtually silent. However, take the same fan at the same voltage and put it inside a PSU, and you inevitably get turbulent airflow noise. If you understand how airflow restrictiveness causes turbulent fan noise, then this is hardly surprising--the effective exhaust area is less than HALF of the 120mm fan area! (Note that the grill size might be ~60% of the area, but if you look just beyond the exhaust grill you'll notice the fan's frame is blocking a lot of this area.)

[Aris]

Most of my motherboards make funny chirping sounds and many of my mobos/PSUs exhibit coil whine

i get the feeling that you are currently in a realm of unnaturally low ambient noise. I have never heard any such noises from any motherboard. I heard it from a PSU once, but thats cause i think i was drawing more power from it than it was designed for.

as long as the noise of the fan turbulance is subtle, and smooth i dont care. It'll definately blend in with most peoples background noise of their homes.

the object is not absolute silence. the object is noise levels lower than normal ambient background noises. Turn on some of your favorite music at a low level and i guarentee you that your computer goes from quiet to silent instantly.

[fmcgraw]

Just to update my experience w/ LL cases

http://forums.silentpcreview.com/viewtopic.php?t=28987

still very happy w/ the results I get from both cases, even during the +100 F degree 2 week heat wave we had recently

my .02's...buy the best u can afford if u plan on keeping the system for long term

Cheers

I LOVE the idea of the sliders for the bottom of the case so it can be easily moved on carpet. I'm going to have to buy some for my current one. Thanks for the link on your mods, I'll look through it in more detail when I get my new case, which I'm sure will be a LL, as you had some interesting ideas.

[epiphane]

I LOVE the idea of the sliders for the bottom of the case so it can be easily moved on carpet. I'm going to have to buy some for my current one. Thanks for the link on your mods, I'll look through it in more detail when I get my new case, which I'm sure will be a LL, as you had some interesting ideas.[/quote]


Glad it helped...ur'll have fun putting the LL together...in between bouts of fustration that is.

Cheers

[ultrachrome]

With respect to Antec cases, you can't go wrong. Cosmetically they don't always compete with Lian Li but they are solid, no-nonsense designs. Especially, the Solo and P150 with their included elastic HDD mounts.

With respect to fans, just about any mid-tower ATX case that has a rear 120 fan mount and enough room to elastically mount your hard drives is a good platform for building quiet, cool-running machine. However, silence is only achieved after applying the concepts like ducting, elastic HDD mounting, fan and CPU undervolting are what make a silent pc.

The 250mm offering is a gimmick and unnecessary when a single 120mm fan running under 1000rpm can do the job.