Stop Japan's senseless dolphin killing: sign the petition

[Happy Hopping]

http://www.glumbert.com/media/dolphin

The above graphics video shows how Japan kill mammals senselessly. Please sign the petition to the Prime Minister of Japan

[Ralf Hutter]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/t ... 956355.stm

[YugenM]

-deleted-

[Happy Hopping]

how did you find that article?

[JohnnyWakko]

That is very disturbing and pathetic behaviour on behalf of those people involved.

[qviri]

how did you find that article?

With an open mind?

[jaganath]

how did you find that article?

With an open mind?

or maybe Google?

[Ralf Hutter]

how did you find that article?

With an open mind?

or maybe Google?

Or maybe a bit of both!

[Erssa]

They look delicious.

[Bobfantastic]

They look delicious.

Hmm, maybe grilled with a little balsamic vinegar and some crushed peppercorns, and served on a bed of squid-ink tortellini?
(scurries to kitchen...)

[andyb]

I would eat dolphin given the opportunity, however its just disgusting to think about eating it raw.

As far as whether dolphin Hunting is ethical of not. It doesnt seem to be any less ethical than Whaling, Shark hunting, or any kind of fishing.

But like anyone that kills any of the above there are degrees of brutality, those Dolphins that are slowly dying in pain on the back of a pickup is un-necessarily cruel, but up to that point there is no logical distinction with fishing or Whaling.

Like many things that people dont aggree with, the primary reason is that we somehow think more of a Dolphin than a shoal of fish. Is it because Dolphins are intelligent, is it because we like the look of them.??? It cant be the amount of pain and suffering compared to 100 fish thats for sure.

I doubt that there would be much logical defense of Dolphin hunting if it was seen to be done far more humanely.


Andy

[nick705]

As far as whether dolphin Hunting is ethical of not. It doesnt seem to be any less ethical than Whaling, Shark hunting, or any kind of fishing.

I guess it would depend if you had a religious belief (it would have to be religious, there's no scientific evidence), that humans are somehow fundamentally different from every other species, and everything else on the planet was put here for our own benefit to treat as we see fit.

There's no doubt that dolphins' brains are larger and apparently more complex than our own which, if that's any indication of sentience (or degree of sentience), makes hunting them logically no more ethical than hunting other humans for food.

The way in which they're hunted is inexcusable regardless, although given what goes on in factory farms in the West I don't suppose we have much room to take the moral high ground.

[qviri]

There's no doubt ... apparently more complex

So is there no doubt, or are they apparently more complex?

[nick705]

There's no doubt ... apparently more complex

So is there no doubt, or are they apparently more complex?

Thank you for the nitpicking, Mr. Semantic, but there's no contradiction.

[andyb]

Is the reason why people dont like:

a, Hunting other animals/ battery farming because of how the animals are treated.

b, Is it because of their intelegence.

c, Is it because of the "fluffy factor" (Dolphins arent fluffy but they are idolised by some, or even thought of as pets).

In some parts of the world, Cats and Dogs are eaten, in Ginnea (and Peru) Ginnea Pigs are eaten on a regular basis - this is normal, the French eat Horses - this is normal, the Japanese eat Dolphin - this is normal.

If we ignore the fact that a person in one part of the world eats something that people in another part of the world dont like, then it is only the barbaric nature of the Dolphins death that should be a cause of concern.

Would any Dolphin lovers eat Cat, Dog, or Ginnea Pig.???

Personally I am willing to eat any animal on the planet so long at it looks appetising, with the exception of animal types that I have had as pets or are endangered species. The fact that that animal is intelegent or not is not an interest of mine.


Andy

[qviri]

There's no doubt ... apparently more complex

So is there no doubt, or are they apparently more complex?

Thank you for the nitpicking, Mr. Semantic, but there's no contradiction.

No, I was actually being serious. Brain size is not the absolute determinant of intelligence, and I was earnestly wondering if we know for sure that dolphin brains are more complex than ours.

[nick705]

No, I was actually being serious. Brain size is not the absolute determinant of intelligence, and I was earnestly wondering if we know for sure that dolphin brains are more complex than ours.

OK, well, a quick google gives this to be going on with.

I suppose you could argue the definition of "complexity" if you really wanted to, but neural density, the development of the cerebral cortex and the presence of advanced structures seems as good as any.

I suppose I should qualify "no doubt" with "insofar as we can ever know anything 'for sure' in science and pending evidence to the contrary," but that gets a little tiresome...

[jaganath]

Personally I am willing to eat any animal on the planet so long at it looks appetising, with the exception of animal types that I have had as pets or are endangered species.

The exclusion of pets as food is no more defensible than the hunting of dolphins; the revulsion against eating dolphins is a combination of the intelligence argument, the fluffy and cuddly argument, and also the fact that in the past dolphins have been seen as signs of good luck for sailors (superstition basically). A dolphin is the marine equivalent of a dog, man's best friend.

Brain size is not the absolute determinant of intelligence

I think brain size as a percentage of body mass is regarded as quite a good indicator? I don't know how dolphins measure up in that area.

Personally I find the hunting of whales even worse than hunting dolphins.

[nick705]

I think brain size as a percentage of body mass is regarded as quite a good indicator? I don't know how dolphins measure up in that area.

It's quite a good indicator (encephalisation quotient), and humans do better than any cetaceans.

As you'd expect though, it's not that simple, as a shrew's brain represents around 10% of its total mass, making them about five times as intelligent as humans on that basis alone.

[andyb]

The exclusion of pets as food is no more defensible than the hunting of dolphins

That was my point, as those are my stipulations of what I will and wont eat. Other people obviously have different opinions, and I cant complain with those on moral grounds.

I do have to question people who say NO without thinking about it (such as religious beliefs), or because Fur looks so much nicer than scales, and the obvious one, pets - I for one wont eat a Rat, or a Cat as I used to have both as pets, I have never owned a Dog, so I would be OK eating one, although I have also had a Rabbit as a pet, and I have eaten Rabbit on a few occasions. I can only conclude that the not-eating certain animal types (for me that is) is solely down to how close a bond I had with said animals. Rabbit is rather nice, and some rabbit gloves I have got are awesome

On Moral grounds I refuse to eat Veal because of the way the animals are treated, and I wouldnt eat Dolphin that has been treated like the ones in the linked video. Then again though I wouldnt eat ANY fish because of the way they are killed - however I cant stand the taste of fish.


Andy

[nick705]

That was my point, as those are my stipulations of what I will and wont eat. Other people obviously have different opinions, and I cant complain with those on moral grounds.

I think the intelligence argument, the pet argument, and the cuddly argument are all really headed in the same direction - how closely we can identify with the potential meal as a "person" rather than as a lump of meat which hasn't been immobilised yet.

People who've worked with dolphins don't need to dissect their brains to realise they're capable of very human-identifiable behaviour - happiness, anger, jealousy, boredom, curiosity, humour, grief, even gratuitous cruelty. Whilst those people couldn't eat a dolphin any more than a member of their own family, they'd often happily eat a cow which appears to do nothing much all day except eat, shit and reproduce, making it seem more primitive and less of a "person," hence fair game for the pot. The Japanese don't see dolphins as anything more than fish, and treat them as such.

It rather begs the question, if (when?) we come into contact with a life form that's demonstrably more intelligent than we are although physically very different, do we regard them as animals or people, and should we try to eat them? More to the point, will they have any compunctions about eating us, and do we have any legitimate cause for complaint (other than self-preservation) should they choose to do so?

[Erssa]

I think those fishermen kill those dolphins in very humane way. If you have been cut sometime in your life (for example with a kitchen knife), you should know, that the pain from a cut is usually very short in duration. It's usually a quick sting followed by numbness or throbbing feeling. I don't think I'm coming out as macho, when I say I have never cryed for the pain, when I have been cut, not even when the gash has been deep.

Just because these dolphins are wiggling after their throats are cut, it doesn't necessarily mean they are in terrible pain or suffering. Their blood is just gushing straight out of them. Probably an easy way to die for a human or for an animal. This throat cutting has a more pragmatic reason, it is meant to drain the blood out of the animal, dead animals don't bleed. I think it's all the blood that makes most people sick about this video, most people just can't stand blood.

I don't really think this is cruel treatment of animals. If you want to see cruel treatment, check this (warning very graphic content) video and see how chinese people skin alive animals. I don't own dogs, but I love them. I think pretty sickening to see alive animals trying to struggle as their skin is pulled off. The look in their eyes afterwards is just so sad. They don't even finish them off, afterwards, but just wait for them to die out.

[Happy Hopping]

Is the reason why people dont like:

a, Hunting other animals/ battery farming because of how the animals are treated.

b, Is it because of their intelegence.

c, Is it because of the "fluffy factor" (Dolphins arent fluffy but they are idolised by some, or even thought of as pets).

Well, for any warm-blooded animals, in our country, there is bylaw when they are killed. Cows, lambs, etc., we don't torture them to death. I mean, I eat chickens, lambs, etc. But the country has strong by law as to how to kill them. They have to die in a humane way or else it's torture.

So if japanese like to eat dolphins, that's their choice, but the way the mammals are treated before they die is torture.

Local farmers across our nation killed cows daily for meat, do you see them drag a cow by a truck across town and cut its throat slowly and wait for it to die?

[andyb]

I had already mentioned that part.

As far as whether dolphin Hunting is ethical of not. It doesnt seem to be any less ethical than Whaling, Shark hunting, or any kind of fishing.

But like anyone that kills any of the above there are degrees of brutality, those Dolphins that are slowly dying in pain on the back of a pickup is un-necessarily cruel, but up to that point there is no logical distinction with fishing or Whaling.

My point that you quoted was more along the lines of why do Dolphins get special treatment rather than fish, they are both alive, they can both feel pain, and they both suffer while being hunted/squashed and drowned in a net.

Why not have the title "stop the worlds senseless killing of sea creatures" that way it would cover the millions of Fish that are tortured to death, alongside the hundreds of Whales and Dolphins, and dont forget the Albatrosses that are drowned by accident whilst trying to drown Tuna fish - at least the Albatrosses are an endangered species.


Andy

[Erssa]

Why not have the title "stop the worlds senseless killing of sea creatures" that way it would cover the millions of Fish that are tortured to death, alongside the hundreds of Whales and Dolphins, and dont forget the Albatrosses that are drowned by accident whilst trying to drown Tuna fish - at least the Albatrosses are an endangered species.


Andy

Because dolphins are cute and can do tricks. Tuna or cod aren't cute. Golden rule: killing animals is ok, as long as they are ugly.

[jaganath]

Why not have the title "stop the worlds senseless killing of sea creatures" that way it would cover the millions of Fish that are tortured to death, alongside the hundreds of Whales and Dolphins, and dont forget the Albatrosses that are drowned by accident whilst trying to drown Tuna fish - at least the Albatrosses are an endangered species.


Andy

Because dolphins are cute and can do tricks. Tuna or cod aren't cute. Golden rule: killing animals is ok, as long as they are ugly.

It's got nothing to do with whether the creature is ugly or not; it is very clear that these creatures are intelligent and possibly even self-aware; we have laws against killing gorillas and other "higher" animals, I don't see why dolphins should not be included in this.

PS. millions of fish that are "tortured to death"? WTF are you talking about?

[Xhyra]

Denis Leary put the entire "cuddly" argument into a rant once upon a time, if memory recalls it went something like there being a long line of all the animals in nature reporting to humanity on why they shouldn't be eaten.

Guy: Alright, what're you?

Otter: I'm an otter.

Guy: And what do you do?

Otter: I swim around and do cute people things with my hands and eat of my tummy!

Guy: You're ok. Next.

Cow: I'm a cow.

Guy: You're a baseball mitt, get on the F'ing truck.

[Ralf Hutter]

[Erssa]

Xhyra and Ralf: Ahrg, can't stop laughing.

[Erssa]

It's got nothing to do with whether the creature is ugly or not;

Yes it does. Kids do all kinds of awful stuff on animals, they tease and torture them. I don't know where you come from or what kind of plays you did as a kid, but when I was a kid, my friends had no respect on ugly animals like toads. It was dangerous business for toads to walk on the roads, they usually got to used as a substitute football. I remember once when I was really young and I was fishing with my cousin and we caught a fish. There were some cows grazing near by, surrounded by an electric fence, so we electrocuted the fish on the fence, just to see them twist from the shocks. During summer I used to catch flys, I tore their legs and wings off and then burned them with magnifying glass. There's no chance we would have done these things to something cute, like a puppy or a kitten, being cute was probably the only reason, that saved these animals from us, we had no concept of animal intelligence at that age. I'm still sure cuteness saves puppies and kittens from kids. In a perfect world most adults would grow out of these habits, but sadly we don't live in perfect world and cuteness is really a factor in deciding which animals are ok to kill and which aren't (especially, if you are equipped with XX chromosomes).

it is very clear that these creatures are intelligent and possibly even self-aware; we have laws against killing gorillas and other "higher" animals, I don't see why dolphins should not be included in this.

Gorillas are an endangered species, that's why the killing is prohibited. Gorillas are also cute and fluffy.