Samsung disappointment/new drive choice?

Silencing hard drives, optical drives and other storage devices

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silence_seeker
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Samsung disappointment/new drive choice?

Post by silence_seeker » Wed May 02, 2007 12:52 am

I've come to the point where I need a second external hard drive for my Apple Mac Powerbook G4.
I already have two OWC Mercury elite Pro al (Firewire 400/800, USB 2.0) fanless metal enclosures, one which already has a Samsung HD-400LD (400 GB ATA) drive mounted. which I bought last year.
Image

I have to say that I had high expectations towards the Samsung drive after having been recommended it here and read countless reviews where it's been praised for being such a "silent" drive.
I don't know how many people define silent, but it vibrates like crazy, causing a loud "hum" sound throughout the enclosure and wooden desk which it is placed upon. Certainly not "silent" in my book. Maybe it's "silent" if you manage to mount it in a way that vibrations aren't carried along the enclosure and the desk etc. It's hard to find methods for that in an external enclosure with limited space, but I imagine that screws with rubber "isolators" in between might help, though I don't know where to buy them.

Anyway, I'm not about to make the same mistake, but wondering if there really are "quiet" or "silent" drives to be bought?

Well, I can live with that drive being noisy because it'll be used as a backup drive. However, the one I'm looking to buy now will be used for video and audio editing, and I can't work in an environment with noise like that, so what do you recommend? I would like at least 400GB, but seeing that 500GB drives are available at a good price I think I'll go for that.

I've read countless reviews of Western digital drives which are supposed to be quiet, most notably the Caviar SE-16 (500 GB). I'd like to hear from anyone who's got this drive.
Unfortunately I noticed that it's a SATA drive, and my drive enclosure is made for ATA/IDE drives. It did however seem like the drive is backwards compatible with the ATA connector. Is this correct, or do I need to look at another drive?

whiic
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Post by whiic » Wed May 02, 2007 5:08 am

Don't act like you weren't warned. T133 review said: "Our usual recommendation to soft-mount any desktop drive goes double for the Spinpoint T: Its vibration level was very high, and a low 120 Hz hum could sometimes be heard even when the drive was placed on foam. When placed on a hard surface, the hum was amplified and came to dominate the noise character, confirming that hard-mounting would not be good for noise quality."

If you want lower vibration WD5000AAKB or T7K500 could be a better option if decoupling isn't an option. (And rubber screws probably don't offer enough decoupling to eliminate vibration induced noise with T-series Samsungs.)

WD has probably quieter seeks that Hitachi, and AAKS has been reported as having roughly the same seek noise as KS but with noticeably less vibration than KS. Some people complain about idle whine... I'm not certain whether they mean electronic squeel or if it's some kind of background scan. (My WD3200JB makes a fade-in/out hissssing type sound that varies with actuator position.)

If I remember correctly some people have reported that Hitachi drives have quite low vibrations. Seeks are likely not quiet, even though some people have reported seek noise to be somewhat lower than older generation Hitachis. These drives make a short offline scan once every 10 minutes (and also a unload/load cycle once every 12 hours), though with some new Hitachis the noise level of the offline scan is so low it may run unnoticed. Improvement? Yes. Enough to challenge WD? Wouldn't bet on it.

Steve_Y
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Post by Steve_Y » Wed May 02, 2007 7:10 am

In my experience those metal enclosures amplify hard drive noise quite considerably. I've used a WD Caviar SE16 WD5000AAKS in an Akasa Integral P2 HDD Enclosure, to me it was very loud, only tolerable as a backup drive that's used for a short time. The same drive was definitely quieter hard mounted inside a PC case.

In my experience, even the quieter 2.5" drives can be fairly loud and annoying in metal enclosures. If you want high capacity and low noise in external storage, I think you'll have to look at network attached storage that's located further away, of maybe make your own silenced enclosure.

silence_seeker
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Post by silence_seeker » Wed May 02, 2007 2:21 pm

whiic wrote:Don't act like you weren't warned. T133 review said: "Our usual recommendation to soft-mount any desktop drive goes double for the Spinpoint T:
I must have read the wrong review or misunderstood something along the way, because it seemed like every review and person I asked recommended that drive.
Oh well, I've bought it and will try to find a suitable solution to dampen the vibrations.
If you want lower vibration WD5000AAKB or T7K500 could be a better option if decoupling isn't an option. (And rubber screws probably don't offer enough decoupling to eliminate vibration induced noise with T-series Samsungs.)

WD has probably quieter seeks that Hitachi, and AAKS has been reported as having roughly the same seek noise as KS but with noticeably less vibration than KS.
I'm a little confused about which drives you're referring to.
The WD5000AAKB is the Western Digital Caviar SE16 (500 GB) model with an EIDE interface. Is this the same as IDE/ATA or SATA? My enclosure can only take IDE/ATA drives.
The T7K500 is the Hitachi Deskstar (500 GB) with an ATA interface, so I could use that one, but judging from the rest of your message it's not recommended over the Western digital drive, correct?

But what are you referring to when you write "AAKS" and "KS"?
Some people complain about idle whine... I'm not certain whether they mean electronic squeel or if it's some kind of background scan. (My WD3200JB makes a fade-in/out hissssing type sound that varies with actuator position.)
Any reports on how the Western digital drives do in this regard? What bothers me most about hard drives is that constant noise which in many cases sound like a vacuum cleaner, a jet engine or something along those lines. The "ticking" can be irritating sometimes, but if I had to choose I'd rather have loud ticking noises than a constant high-pitched whine. After hours of use that really wears you down. You notice it especially when you turn off the computer!

What about vibrations from the Western digital drive(s)? If the WD5000AAKB is indeed an ATA drive and can work with my external enclosure, would I do better with that drive than my existing Samsung HD-400LD (400 GB ATA) which I've just complained about the vibration?
Apart from the vibration however there is no noticeable seek noise, but that might be because it's masked by the vibrations.

mcoleg
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Post by mcoleg » Wed May 02, 2007 5:05 pm

before changing drives, try this - take your enclosure off the stand and put it down horizontally on some foam or a gel-pack. it just might do the trick.

whiic
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Location: Finland

Post by whiic » Wed May 02, 2007 5:20 pm

"I'm a little confused about which drives you're referring to.
The WD5000AAKB is the Western Digital Caviar SE16 (500 GB) model with an EIDE interface. Is this the same as IDE/ATA or SATA? My enclosure can only take IDE/ATA drives."


EIDE is Enchanced IDE. All IDE today is EIDE, but only Western Digital bother to use the extra "E". So, yes, from SE16 AA-variant, KB is the one that would work with your enclosure.

"But what are you referring to when you write "AAKS" and "KS"?"

There's no reviews of AAKB and there most likely will never be. Assume AAKS to be identical except that it has SATA/300 interface instead of IDE/ATA. KS is older variant of the same capacity and has 1 extra platter, thus higher vibration.

"The T7K500 is the Hitachi Deskstar (500 GB) with an ATA interface, so I could use that one, but judging from the rest of your message it's not recommended over the Western digital drive, correct?"

I cannot recommend it because I have no experience with it and not many SPCR forumist have either. We need head-to-head comparisons, preferably many of them, to be certain. Sure, it is hard to sell a new product to a niché community: to sell, you need people who recommend the product, but to have people recommend the product, you have to first sell the product to somebody. The problem is: not many people here in SPCR have actually bought T7K500, thus even IF that drive was purely magnificient, I has not created enough critical mass to become a true hype. Hype tends to feed itself.

Take HDDTach for example. If someone happens to post (low-level) HDD benchmarks on a forum, what are the chances that screenshots are from HDDTach, no doubt the crappies HDD benchmark I have ever laid my eyes on and which is not even freeware? The chance is more than 50%. More than 50% for Christs sake! Now that's the result of Snowball effect, very similar to hype.

"would I do better with [WD5000AAKB] than my existing Samsung HD-400LD (400 GB ATA) which I've just complained about the vibration?"

Probably. That is unless you happen to be unlucky and get a high-vibration sample. It's a matter of luck.

"Apart from the vibration however there is no noticeable seek noise, but that might be because it's masked by the vibrations."

Do you mean you HD400LD? Wow! Then it sure does vibrate much since HD400 isn't the most quiet seeker around. If the seeks are completely masked, the vibrations have to be very annoying.

WDs have very quiet seeks and somewhat lower vibration than Samsungs. Hitachi has similar or possibly slightly noisier seeks than Samsung but again Samsung vibrates more.

Also remember that power consumption should be taken into consideration when bying HDDs for passively cooled enclosures.

Hitachi supports APM which makes it slightly better suited for USB enclosures as it offers protection from physical shocks when idling and lowers idle power consumption. Hitachi also has low idle power consumption to begin with but are unbelievable power hogs when seeking. Enabling AAM highly recommended (not just power consumption but seek noise as well). "Quiet" seek mode reduces power consumption noticeably.

WD has slightly higher idle power consumption and lack APM for shock protection and power saving, but WDs have unbelievably low seek power consumption (both AAM disabled and enabled), barely above idle usage. Even though WD uses more power on idle than Hitachi, WD is still noticeably cooler than Samsung or Seagate/Maxtor.

Ideal choice depends on how drive is used, for example: how much seeking. The more seeking, the more favourable WD will become as it seeks cooler and quieter. With less seeking and more idle periods, the more favourable Hitachi will become. Thus there's no clear winner for all scenarios, like there's no single quietest drive.

silence_seeker
Posts: 51
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2005 12:12 pm

Post by silence_seeker » Thu May 03, 2007 12:52 am

mcoleg wrote:before changing drives, try this - take your enclosure off the stand and put it down horizontally on some foam or a gel-pack. it just might do the trick.
I'm not using the stand at all. I borrowed the photo from the manufacturer's website (as with the image below). My drive is placed flat down on the desk, and the new drive will be stacked on top of the old one.
Image

Lifting the encosure from the computer desk helps a lot. It removes the very deep vibration "hum". But there's still a bit of vibration left.
Still, if I could find a way to do away with the vibration which goes through the desk I would be very happy.
I was thinking about trying out the "AcoustiFeet black anti-vibration feet, very soft" from QuietPC to put under the enclosure (I already have rubber feet there which came with the enclosure, but apparently they're not doing a very good job of reducing the vibration), but if you live outside of the UK they charge outrageous amounts for the postage costs. And even the "very soft" ones are made for cases weighing up to 8Kg, which is far more than the drive+enclosure weights, so I'm wondering if "very soft" just isn't good enough for this anyway.
I also don't know where else to get them than through QuietPC.

I still think I should do something to dampen the vibration throughout the enclosure though, but as has been raised before it's the issue of overheating. Adding a small fan could be done of course, but I really don't feel like drilling additional holes for mounting it and for the air intake/outlet. Perhaps the existing holes in the dront are enough for that? And for mounting, perhaps I could find a way of doing this internally.

mcoleg
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Post by mcoleg » Thu May 03, 2007 1:30 am

well, that would be a bit of an overkill.... for that money you can have a better enclosure altogether.

something like this:

http://www.petrastechshop.com/pegviabbl.html

works wonders for absorbing vibrations. i have a 7200.10 in a smartdrive sitting on one of those. very nice results.

silence_seeker
Posts: 51
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2005 12:12 pm

Post by silence_seeker » Sun May 06, 2007 7:22 am

whiic wrote: "But what are you referring to when you write "AAKS" and "KS"?"

There's no reviews of AAKB and there most likely will never be. Assume AAKS to be identical except that it has SATA/300 interface instead of IDE/ATA. KS is older variant of the same capacity and has 1 extra platter, thus higher vibration.
So the WD5000AAKB (IDE) and WD5000AAKS (SATA) are assumed to be the same drive mechanism (but with different interfaces) while the WD5000KS (SATA) is an older version of the WD5000AAKS. The same size/performance, but with an additional platter (4 in total) which increases noise levels?
It gets confusing with all these almost similar model numbers, so I just want to get that cleared up.

Having read a few reviews of the WD5000AAKS (SATA) it seems that this is a good drive (hence the WD5000AAKB (IDE) is also a good choice). Because of the 3 platters vs. 4 in the older model there will be less noise and also less heat (which is useful for for me as my enclosure has no fan).


"Apart from the vibration however there is no noticeable seek noise, but that might be because it's masked by the vibrations."

Do you mean you HD400LD? Wow! Then it sure does vibrate much since HD400 isn't the most quiet seeker around. If the seeks are completely masked, the vibrations have to be very annoying.
I had to check this again, and it wasn't actually quite that bad. I do hear the seeks, but the "humming" due to the vibrations are so bad that I tend to forget about the seek sounds.

From the rest of your reply it seems that although the Western Digital drives consume a little more power than both Samsung and Hitachi drives (thereby giving off more heat, but as you say later in your message the overall heat is less with Western Digital drives than Samsung and Hitachi) they're still a safe bet and I'll be happier with both seek and vibration noise than my current Samsung HD-400LD drive (at least the vibration will be less if I'm not very unlucky).

Ideal choice depends on how drive is used, for example: how much seeking. The more seeking, the more favourable WD will become as it seeks cooler and quieter. With less seeking and more idle periods, the more favourable Hitachi will become. Thus there's no clear winner for all scenarios, like there's no single quietest drive.
Since I'll be using this drive specifically for video editing and audio recording I assume there will be quite a lot of drive activity. So to conclude it seems like the Western Digital WD5000AAKB (IDE) is the best drive for my use if I want a high performance, low noise and low heat drive with an IDE interface. Is my understanding correct?

whiic
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Post by whiic » Sun May 06, 2007 9:16 am

"From the rest of your reply it seems that although the Western Digital drives consume a little more power than both Samsung and Hitachi drives (thereby giving off more heat, but as you say later in your message the overall heat is less with Western Digital drives than Samsung and Hitachi)"

I either wrote something inconsistent gibberish and/or you misunderstood my writing. WD is in no way hotter running than Samsung. Samsung is the hottest of this triplet.

Low load:
1) Hitachi
2) WD
3) Samsung

Medium load:
1 & 2) WD & Hitachi
3) Samsung

High load:
1) WD
2) Samsung
3) Hitachi

(Ranked from coolest to hottest.)

"[WD is] still a safe bet and I'll be happier with both seek and vibration noise than my current Samsung HD-400LD drive"

I think so. Maybe not "safe" but a "good bet" non the less. You can always be "very unlucky", making a HDD purchase never a safe bet. If I don't remember incorrectly, 75GXP received a "Safe Buy"-tag from StorageReview. Of course they reviewed only performance characteristics and those indeed were quite top notch. :p

"So to conclude it seems like the Western Digital WD5000AAKB (IDE) is the best drive for my use if I want a high performance, low noise and low heat drive with an IDE interface. Is my understanding correct?"

It is possible or even likely. Hitachi and Samsung are also alternatives, depending on emphasis between idle noise, seek noise, idle power consumption, seek power consumption, vibration, performance, use environment, etc. For your purpose, no for Samsung.

WD might be a bit "safer" as previous generations have been quiet. Hitachi's previous generations aren't something most of us call quiet.

whiic
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Location: Finland

Post by whiic » Mon May 07, 2007 6:53 am

Hmmm... I think I'll cancel the WD5000AAxx recommendation as "safe" option. It's probably as "safe" as T7K500 is. I came into that conclusion when I read some more recent end-user review from this thread.

"The AAKS are only very slightly quieter than the KS's. They do have noticeably less vibration. Seek noise is the same on both. Spin up/ Spin down is quieter on the AAKS."

"The 500 AAKS's I have do have a lower idle noise (subjectively) than the older 500 KS's . Not by much, but it is noticeable."

"They're not silent, no, but they're pretty darn quiet."

"WD5000AAKS idle is annoying louder than a Samsung P120 250GB. There's some kinda high frequency whine.

However, the WD's seek is MUCH quieter than the P120, even with AA off. With AA on MAX, it's very very quiet."


"In terms of idle white noise, from loudest to quietest

WD 320 JD (SATA1)
WD Raptor 150
WD 500 AAKS
WD 500 KS
...
The KS has less "whoosh" than the AAKS. The 320/Raptor/AAKS are bunched closely... I guess the best way to describe it is like cars driving in the distance, or my Macbook when there is some CPU load on it. heh."


Green: reports that are in favour of AAKS
Red: report that are not in favour of AAKS (i.e rank KS above AAKS, or otherwise negative reports)

While recent reviews are more critical towards AAKS, at least they report lower vibration than KS. And that's a good thing: it may woosh or whine, but it wouldn't vibrate the enclosure.

I won't make similar quotations on all T7K500 reports because they are more evenly distributed around the forum, and finding a decent percentage of T7K500 opinions would take quite a long time of browsing through all the topics. Not to mention that even if I browsed through all the topics, there'd still be only a handful of these short reviews. Probably a viable low-vibration alternative to AAKS.

silence_seeker
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Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2005 12:12 pm

Post by silence_seeker » Mon May 07, 2007 8:59 am

whiic wrote:While recent reviews are more critical towards AAKS, at least they report lower vibration than KS. And that's a good thing: it may woosh or whine, but it wouldn't vibrate the enclosure.
Finding "the right" right drive doesn't seem to be an easy task at all, and very time consuming.
I certainly don't want any high frequency "whine" either (I've had too much of that in the past -might as well use my computer with the vacuum cleaner turned on constantly). I'll have no more of that thank you.

OK, since everybody concerned with quiet drives has a different opinion, at least the drives they discuss seem to be the same:

1)
Western Digital WD5000AK (SATA)
Western Digital WD5000AAKS (SATA)
Western Digital WD5000AAKB (ATA)

2)
Hitachi Deskstar T7K500 (SATA/ATA)

3)
Samsung ..anything recent?


Since I do need a drive of some sort I will probably buy one of these, but with warnings about "whine" and vibration from some people while others report the same drives as "silent" I'm left utterly confused again.

I guess a lot of this boils down to the type of enclosure being used.
In that respect I have given it a little thought and come up with an idea....
Since I'm into music and already have a 19" rack I could make myself a 19" rack mounted hard-drive. Basically an empty 19" metal enclosure where I could mount both drives the way I wanted with rubber dampening or whatever, a quiet fan, heatsinks etc.

My current drive enclosures have both Firewire 400, 800 as well as USB 2.0 for the greatest flexibility, which is something I want to keep.
With a 19" rack enclosure I could also do away with the "wall warts" and instead have a single power supply inside the enclosure.
For interfacing I believe you can buy stand alone "bridge boards" as the ones already present in my enclosures (I will of course sell those if I go for the DIY rack solution).
But all that will be a lot of additional work, and if I can do with the existing enclosures and reducing noise levels I would indeed be very happy.

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