60mm > 120mm; I don't think so

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bonestonne
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60mm > 120mm; I don't think so

Post by bonestonne » Sat Nov 10, 2007 4:21 pm

Ok, so I'm having this dilemna about my computer, how its built, and what my dad seems to say. I just need more sources than just me explaining why larger fans and larger heatsinks are better than smaller heatsinks and smaller fans in new computers.

My system has a Pentium D 940 which runs at 3.2ghz with an 800mhz bus speed. According to Intels website, it has a 95W thermal design power, which is equal to that of a G0 Core 2 Quad Q6600. That drove me to get my hands on a Scythe Ninja [Rev. A] which has made a large impact on cooling compared to the stock cooler.

My system is also running an nVidia GeForce FX5200, which I'm using to tide me over until I get a new PCI-e card. Because its fanless and heats up considerably, I placed a 92mm fan at the bottom of the hard drive bays because I only have one drive down there. Since the 92mm fan runs pretty loud, I have it undervolted with a molex adapter to 7v and its easily cooling the 5200 as well as the Southbridge, which also gets pretty warm when untouched.

Seeing as I have a Scythe Ninja, I run two 120mm fans, one directly on the ninja, and one as the exhaust fan. The fan on the ninja is also on a molex adapter undervolted to 7v so it runs silently. The exhaust fan is plugged into the 3 pin header for the CPU fan because it is 1000 RPM. Having it plugged in here means that it will run <1000 RPM and thus be silent as well. Seeing as all of the fans are running at 7v or controlled by the motherboard, all of them are near silent, so that leaves the hard drives as the only noise source in the case, which is perfectly acceptable by me for the time being, however I will be looking for a new drive soon.

What my problem is, is that my dad seems to be under the impression that this 95W processor should be cooled by a small heatsink with a small fan, and instead of having the graphics card cooled with a path of air, it should be cooled directly with a small fan directly on the heatsink, which would have to be changed to accommodate this fan.

My 120mm fans use 0.20A and 0.16A, however they are only getting 7v and <12v rather than the full 12v that would be recommended or advised. My 92mm fan uses 0.15A and is also running 7v.

My dads computer uses two 60mm screamers that at the moment I can only guess that they are Cooler Master fans. I have a similar fan here, and the label reads that it uses 0.25A. Reason the amperage is important is because my dad is saying that I'm wasting my power supply's energy powering unnecessary fans. Another suggestion he had was to use an 80mm fan [although he refers to fan sizes in inches]. I have an undervolted Panaflow fan, and its label says it uses 0.13A at 12v respectively. My dad has an 80mm to 60mm adapter for his exhaust fan which uses a 60mm fan, and the processor fan is a 60mm fan, which is 15m thick, I'm unsure of its Amperage just yet, but I will check it.

I cannot seem to find exactly his processor on Intels chart, however the closest I can find says that it has either a 31.2W TDP or a 60W TDP. My best guess, because I know the processor specs and cannot find an exact match is that it has the 31.2W TDP. Keeping this in mind, his processor will rarely, if ever break 100C if it even makes it to that point. My 95W TDP processor idles around 25C, his idles at maybe half that. Already, much more cooling is necessary. My dads power supply is some no-name ATX 200W that was put in, I'm not even sure why, however I do know that its more than what the original computer had. My computer is running a Fortron Source "Green" 300W ATX power supply with 120mm fan and 82% efficiency. Another factor is that the smaller, stock cooler uses 0.45A, which is considerably more than the fans I have in my computer now.

With all of this in mind, can anyone give me links or information that I can pass along? It seems as though running a Scythe Ninja is a "bad idea" because of the large fin spacing, and aluminum fins. In essence, I need some substantial proof that the processor needs to be cooled differently and that smaller fans would not be able to keep up. My tower is incredibly quiet, and I have no intention of changing it except for more silencing components [maybe a new NB heatsink soon], so this is more for his information than mine, however I have no objections to learning some more myself. The last obtrusive factor is that his tower is mATX, as opposed to my tower being standard ATX.

Thanks in advanced for everything, and hopefully that will increase his understanding as well. I will put in up-to-date pictures as soon as I can take them [which will be just later tonight].

jaganath
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Post by jaganath » Sat Nov 10, 2007 5:08 pm

I just need more sources than just me explaining why larger fans and larger heatsinks are better than smaller heatsinks and smaller fans in new computers.
a heatsink's heat-moving ability is (roughly) dictated by its surface area and the mass flow rate of coolant (air) past the fins. If you want to increase cooling ability to handle a 95W processor, you either need to improve surface area, airflow, or preferably both. This is why a hotter CPU needs a larger heatsink.

Also, from a noise standpoint, a larger fan will be quieter than a smaller fan at equal CFM; this is because CFM scales with the third power of the diameter, but noise only scales more or less linearly with RPM. (see fan laws for more info)

jessekopelman
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Re: 60mm > 120mm; I don't think so

Post by jessekopelman » Sat Nov 10, 2007 9:31 pm

bonestonne wrote:Reason the amperage is important is because my dad is saying that I'm wasting my power supply's energy powering unnecessary fans.
I don't understand his argument here. He wants you to replace your CPU HSF with a smaller heatsink and smaller fan and he wants you to replace the fan near your graphics card with a fan on the graphics card -- that is still exactly the same number of fans! Is his claim that smaller fans will use less power? That seems highly unlikely, as smaller fans will have to spin faster (using more power). Maybe, I'm missing something and he does have a way for you to eliminate 1 or 2 fans. That may save you as much as 5W. Something tells me your PSU isn't missing those 5W . . . If you run your PC 24/7 and pay 20 cents/kWhr, 5W is costing you $8.76/year. Given that you will have to buy a new CPU HSF and a new heatsink for GPU to execute his recommendations, it will be a few years before you even break even from the energy savings! Not to mention that his setup will be louder . . .

derekva
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Post by derekva » Sat Nov 10, 2007 10:11 pm

OK. I think this calls for an intervention.

Anyone?

-D

bonestonne
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Post by bonestonne » Sat Nov 10, 2007 10:32 pm

I'm only looking for something he can read to make him understand. He told me that my Ninja was a poor heatsink, when it put a large dent in the temps, and my computer is much quieter.

One of the main differences is that I have the only dual core setup in the house, but while being the most powerful, it is the quietest. If you want to hear my computer, you have to stick your head under my desk and listen for the soft whoose of air. I just snapped some pictures of his case, but I was having issues with my graphics card earlier so I'm going to have to hold off on posting all the pictures tonight, but I definitely will in the morning. I'll have pictures of his setup and PSU as well as mine to show the differences.

His fans burn more energy than mine, so it makes no sense to change. I'll get onto those pictures stat though. I may print this topic out when it gets long enough and let him read it. I do know what I'm doing to my own computer.

derekva
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Post by derekva » Sat Nov 10, 2007 10:46 pm

bonestonne wrote:I'm only looking for something he can read to make him understand. He told me that my Ninja was a poor heatsink, when it put a large dent in the temps, and my computer is much quieter.
Actually, your father is incorrect. For the purpose of cooling a computer CPU, the Ninja is a very good heatsink. Ask your father what he thinks about automobile radiators in terms of good or poor heatsinks. If he thinks that automotive radiators work well, then he doesn't really have a logical leg to stand on as the Ninja is quite similar in design. Either way, it is your PC, not his and the only thing consuming more power is your processor, not your fans.

Hope this helps.

-D

[/b]

bonestonne
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Post by bonestonne » Sun Nov 11, 2007 8:37 am

:roll:
Thats actually something I should do, seeing as he's quite the mechanic.

I had to snap the pictures quickly because the battery needs to be charged, but here's what I have in terms of the differences:

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g142/ ... G_1847.jpg
^that's his computer full.

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g142/ ... G_1854.jpg
^that's my computer. already a large difference.


http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g142/ ... G_1850.jpg
^his exhaust fan, 60mm screamer.

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g142/ ... G_1856.jpg
^my exhaust fan. while it appears to be two 120mm fans, thats actually a broken fans shell, i took off the posts and fan/hub so all it does is act as a duct. instead of pulling air away from the PSU, i brought the cooling closer to the heatsink, so the PSU would also be able to take less heat from the ninja. Its not secure yet, as its held in place with a rubber band and paperclips, but i will find a way to secure it soon.


http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g142/ ... G_1852.jpg
^the front of his case on the inside. no filters, no restriction, however, that forces it to rely on air pressure for intake, countered by slits at the bottom of the case side.

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g142/ ... G_1858.jpg
^my 92mm 7v fan, which cools the HDD, SB and gfx. acts as intake as well, although only in the bottom chamber.
-------
After some poking around, I found that his CPU fan is 0.21A, and his exhaust fan is 0.22A. Both numbers are higher than any fan in my system. Also, strangely enough, he said that there was too much Aluminum on my Ninja. Funny, his heatsink is solid aluminum! Not only that, but I'm proudly using high density Artic Silver on my CPU/Ninja, where he's using a synthetic silicon grease, under the impression it will work the same.

That single stick of RAM is an old IBM 256mb SD RAM module. The other RAM slot doesn't work, a result of adding RAM to a system that is on, and not hot swappable. Surprisingly, the computer still works, and has only had one problem with the partition table on the hard drive, a Maxtor [my family has had numerous Maxtor problems] which is 5400RPM, so its also performing slower than other drives.

Already its interesting to hear this from him, his fans use more energy than mine, and I should use a cooling method like his? Talk about increasing draw thus causing the power supply to heat up. My power supply is barely kicking out any noticeable airflow as is, its not even warm.

If you walk out of this room, you wouldn't know my computer was on at all, hard to tell even being in the room. You'd have to walk either out of my house, or upstairs to be out of the range of his computer.

Thanks for the replies so far!

bonestonne
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Post by bonestonne » Sun Nov 11, 2007 8:52 am

bonestonne wrote::roll:
Thats actually something I should do, seeing as he's quite the mechanic.

I had to snap the pictures quickly because the battery needs to be charged, but here's what I have in terms of the differences:

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g142/ ... G_1847.jpg
^that's his computer full.

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g142/ ... G_1854.jpg
^that's my computer. already a large difference.


http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g142/ ... G_1850.jpg
^his exhaust fan, 60mm screamer.

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g142/ ... G_1856.jpg
^my exhaust fan. while it appears to be two 120mm fans, thats actually a broken fans shell, i took off the posts and fan/hub so all it does is act as a duct. instead of pulling air away from the PSU, i brought the cooling closer to the heatsink, so the PSU would also be able to take less heat from the ninja. Its not secure yet, as its held in place with a rubber band and paperclips, but i will find a way to secure it soon.


http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g142/ ... G_1852.jpg
^the front of his case on the inside. no filters, no restriction, however, that forces it to rely on air pressure for intake, countered by slits at the bottom of the case side.

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g142/ ... G_1858.jpg
^my 92mm 7v fan, which cools the HDD, SB and gfx. acts as intake as well, although only in the bottom chamber.


http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g142/ ... G_1851.jpg
^my dads power supply

http://images10.newegg.com/NeweggImage/ ... 031-03.jpg
^newegg's photo of my power supply, i'd have to remove it to get a picture of my own. I also have dual 12v rails, much different from his.
-------
After some poking around, I found that his CPU fan is 0.21A, and his exhaust fan is 0.22A. Both numbers are higher than any fan in my system. Also, strangely enough, he said that there was too much Aluminum on my Ninja. Funny, his heatsink is solid aluminum! Not only that, but I'm proudly using high density Artic Silver on my CPU/Ninja, where he's using a synthetic silicon grease, under the impression it will work the same.

That single stick of RAM is an old IBM 256mb SD RAM module. The other RAM slot doesn't work, a result of adding RAM to a system that is on, and not hot swappable. Surprisingly, the computer still works, and has only had one problem with the partition table on the hard drive, a Maxtor [my family has had numerous Maxtor problems] which is 5400RPM, so its also performing slower than other drives.

Already its interesting to hear this from him, his fans use more energy than mine, and I should use a cooling method like his? Talk about increasing draw thus causing the power supply to heat up. My power supply is barely kicking out any noticeable airflow as is, its not even warm.

If you walk out of this room, you wouldn't know my computer was on at all, hard to tell even being in the room. You'd have to walk either out of my house, or upstairs to be out of the range of his computer.

Thanks for the replies so far!

PsychoStreak
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Post by PsychoStreak » Wed Nov 21, 2007 1:17 pm

OK. Your dad is nuts. RAM install on a system that's running? 5400RPM Maxtor HD?

He's got a perfectly good 80mm or 92mm rear exhaust port blocked up with plexiglass and a dinky 60mm fan from an old Taisol heatsink, and a 60mm Coolermaster fan on what looks to be an all aluminum HSF from the Socket 370 era.

Maybe he had a bad experience with some Sunon fans in the past?

Show him the CFM and dB ratings for those fans, then show him the ones from the fans you're running.

Perhaps if he thought of the exhaust fan as the same as a car exhaust, he'd realize that he's running a 1.5 inch exhaust pipe, while you're running a 4 inch pipe. Never mind that you're running a V8 compared to his inline 4.

Run CPU-Z on his machine to find out what CPU he's got.

Asides from that, I want you to make him a wager. He gives $100 for parts, and you upgrade his PSU, HSF, and fans, and a Kill-A-Watt.
You run the Kill-A-Watt for a day on his PC, and note the numbers. Have him note the sound level, and both of you check the system temps.

Then install the new parts, and run the Kill-A-Watt again for a day on his PC. Again, note the sound level and temps.
Compare the numbers.

When you win the bet, he fronts half the cost of a new video card for you. :)
In the unlikely event you don't win, you owe him $100.

Better yet, ask if him his engine will run cooler if you cover the grill with duct tape and only leave a 3 inch opening for air to get in, or if you take the tape off. He's got the taped up system.

bonestonne
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Post by bonestonne » Thu Nov 22, 2007 5:43 pm

:lol:

someday.

he quite his whining after i told him that a heatsinks cooling ability is based on its surface area, which he tried to battle, but whatever...when i told him you can't cool 95W with a 35W cooling block he didn't believe me.

the battle is over, but the war is not.

chahahc
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Post by chahahc » Fri Nov 23, 2007 10:46 pm

bonestonne wrote:
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g142/ ... G_1850.jpg
^his exhaust fan, 60mm screamer.
That is the EXACT same fan I had on my athlon Tbird cpu heatsink. That thing drove me up the wall....
PsychoStreak wrote:
OK. Your dad is nuts. RAM install on a system that's running? 5400RPM Maxtor HD?
My friend tried Installing ram in a running system once. He ended up sticking one of his fingers into the cpu fan and broke off a fan blade. He STILL hasn't replacecd the fan yet. And no, he doesn't visit spcr. :?
Last edited by chahahc on Fri Nov 23, 2007 10:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

bonestonne
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Post by bonestonne » Fri Nov 23, 2007 10:56 pm

my external hard drive has a screamer for a 30mm fan, but my dads computer can drown out the sounds of a dying cat...in all honesty, its not a nice sound. [the computer i mean].

chahahc
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Post by chahahc » Fri Nov 23, 2007 11:00 pm

I know what you mean. I had to endure my athlon for 7 1/2 years before I could "upgrade".....1.6gig pentium 4 socket 478 windsor ftw....freakin coil whine though.... :evil: :evil:

ntavlas
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Post by ntavlas » Sat Nov 24, 2007 11:41 am

I was able to cool a friend`s amd tbird cpu using a similar cooler as your fathers running at 1500 rpm but I would definately recommend adding a larger fan on that back port!

I like you trick making a duct out of that olf fan frame, did you notice a difference in the fan speed of the psu?

Chris Chan
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Post by Chris Chan » Sun Nov 25, 2007 12:12 pm

bonestonne wrote:Not only that, but I'm proudly using high density Artic Silver on my CPU/Ninja, where he's using a synthetic silicon grease, under the impression it will work the same.
Actually, it pretty much does.

bonestonne
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Post by bonestonne » Sun Nov 25, 2007 12:23 pm

ntavlas wrote:I was able to cool a friend`s amd tbird cpu using a similar cooler as your fathers running at 1500 rpm but I would definately recommend adding a larger fan on that back port!

I like you trick making a duct out of that olf fan frame, did you notice a difference in the fan speed of the psu?
not initially, but the PUS fan is barely kicking out anything noticeable...not very warm either. i guess it did make a large difference, but i never really worked much with my PSU, so i can only assume it made a difference. the PSU does push out less warm air though, so it did make at least a heat difference.

i did just read that article Chris, and one thing i'll note is "sparingly." my dad did not exactly go light on the silicon grease. but its not my rig to kill, its his.

last night i told him i have 3 gigs of RAM...he seemed shocked...thats 12 times more than his computer, 6 times more than my oldest sister, 3 times more than my other sister, and 12 times more than my twin sis. ^_^

Mr. Perfect
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Post by Mr. Perfect » Tue Dec 04, 2007 2:56 pm

bonestonne wrote:while it appears to be two 120mm fans, thats actually a broken fans shell, i took off the posts and fan/hub so all it does is act as a duct. Its not secure yet, as its held in place with a rubber band and paperclips, but i will find a way to secure it soon.
Don't know if you've addressed the fan duct yet, but if you haven't, I would suggest finding some self-tapping fan screws. I made a similar gutted-fan duct for a CPU fan, and the self-tappers work perfectly. They are designed to thread into the holes in the "ears" of the fan and are long enough to join two fans. You can see an example of them here.

Once bolted together, the fans will be very secure, and it looks professional to boot. The only difficulty is finding a long, thin screwdriver that can go through the front "ear" of the fan in order to reach the back "ear" that the bolt is going trough. Also, it looks like your gutted fan has closed in ears, you would need to open them using the guide posted in this sticky.

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Post by adam_mccullough » Tue Dec 04, 2007 5:25 pm

I can't suggest a strategy for getting through to someone too stubborn to listen to sense, but I can recommend some reading material:

Rogers & Mayhew, "Engineering Thermodynamics, Work and Heat Transfer", Chapters 21 to 24

Eastop & McConkey, "Applied Thermodynamics", Chapter 16

Winterton, "Heat Transfer"

Holman, "Heat Transfer"

They should have at least one of these at your local library, I'd have thought. Rogers & Mayhew and Eastop & McConkey are excellent texts for the whole subject of thermodynamics, I'd be shocked if anyone who actually designs heatsinks for a living didn't own a copy of either one, or at least something very similar. Holman is pretty advanced, but still reasonably approachable. If you're not ready for degree-level engineering you'll probably be best starting with Winterton - it seems to present the topic in a pretty concise and simple way, although admittedly I haven't used it much.

Unfortunately, none of these books are heavy enough to beat your dad with until he understands... but you can perhaps point out the relevant pages and suggest that he accept the laws of thermodynamics until such time as he can disprove them ;)

adam_mccullough
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Post by adam_mccullough » Tue Dec 04, 2007 5:45 pm

If you don't fancy the maths, I guess I also have the following suggestion:

If he doesn't believe contact surface area has any effect on the rate of heat transfer between two bodies, ask him whether he'd rather dunk his little finger or his whole arm in boiling water for ten seconds...

bonestonne
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Post by bonestonne » Tue Dec 04, 2007 8:16 pm

:roll:

i think i'll have a read myself soon as i can get to the library, or my moms next trip.

its interesting though, hearing someone who clearly is just an end user trying to reach conclusions that are definitely false.

i got a trojan over the weekend, which was definitely upsetting, but just yesterday i solved my problems. reinstalled with 64bit, reinstalled Ubuntu 7.04, solved a whole slate of problems, while keeping my partition table neat. he just went off to bed, told me if i'm still having trouble i should quit..you know, the only reason i came back down is because the speed of 64bit XP is incredible.

but yes, all of this advice is being taken. for some reason the topic isn't always marked as containing new posts, but i still check now and then. its for me to learn more, and for newbies.

i'm not sure i can even remember the days of small fans sometimes, but then i fire up one of my old P4 rigs, and remember the good ol' days.

i find it very interesting how many different people can have so many different things to say on such a common issue, while its all so recognized in ways. we see computers getting larger fans, but do we even realize why sometimes? funny eh?

---
oh, and for the self tapping screws, i actually have a bunch upstairs, maybe friday i can fix that up...coincedentally i have a few screwdrivers that fit the bill perfectly. i've used the concept before, but haven't done it with this, one fan has closed ears, one has open.
i'm also rebuilding two systems at my school, one is a dual P3 server, i'm running it with matched 866mhz processors, maybe i'll get 512+mb of RAM in it. run the OS on one drive, RAID the data, use it as a workstation. i get to be the "computer nerd" at my schools radio station, and it does pay off. fix a computer here and there, friend tells a friend, a little money makes its way into my hands....we're good.

i'll have to post a new topic about the dual P3 server though...i want to re-do all its internals, but there's only a spot for one fan.

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