Western Digital VelociRaptor WD3000BLFS Previews

Silencing hard drives, optical drives and other storage devices

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Farinorco
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Post by Farinorco » Sat May 03, 2008 4:03 pm

Haha :lol: . As you can see, you're not saying nothing that I hadn't said, and even remarked, in both my own previous posts...

I'm not bashing anyone that want/prefer/consider to buy a VelociRaptor. In fact I've reached this thread searching info about this drive myself (why do you think I was reading this? :wink: )...

If you look carefully what I've said, I'm only replying a statement saying that "The HD is the major bottleneck in almost every computer, especially those playing games[...]". I think this aseveration is plain wrong because it's meaning that general performance in almost every computer is being hold back by the slooooooow (which it is) performance of the hard drive, especially when gaming... and the truth is that the performance of the hard drive has literally no noticeably effect on 99% of the tasks that an application does because of how they're all programmed to avoid using the hard drive when possible (and that's the 99.99% of the time, I insist). So hardly the hd can be the "major bottleneck" in a computer except if we're talking about a computer dedicated to some especific kinds of file working, not nearly "almost every computer", and by no means a "gamer computer". And this kind of ideas lead the people to confusion.

Of course, I'm not saying that a fast drive is useless. I don't think that a launching time of OpenOffice of 2 or 3 seconds matters. But, for example, if you work some hours, and save your work very often (I use to do it), the stops may turn to be annoying. Maybe a faster drive could make this more bearable. I know very well that you're talking about this kind of things. Then, you value if that 6x more expensive, a little louder drive, it's a good trade for you... I wasn't talking about that, this time.

TooNice
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Post by TooNice » Mon May 05, 2008 8:06 am

The (Veloci)Raptor is won't win any award in terms of cost per GB, but I am pleasantly surprised by how quiet it is. It seems that the F1 is not as quiet as it's predecessor (T166) after all.

QuietOC
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Post by QuietOC » Tue May 06, 2008 6:13 am


Edwood
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Post by Edwood » Thu May 08, 2008 5:07 pm

When is the Velociraptor supposed to be available in the USA for sale?

When is SCPR labs getting theirs for review? :)

gmat
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Post by gmat » Thu May 08, 2008 11:52 pm

There are some excellent 3.5"->5.25" silent enclosures (like the SilentMaxx i'm using with my current 150Gb Raptor - totally muffles the motor and almost kills the seek noise).
What about some nice 2.5"->5.25" enclosures that keep the drive quiet and cool ? I'd consider the Velociraptor only if i could put it in such a box. No naked drive in my PC, and the stock cooler keeps the drive naked, and seems designed for front-to-back airflow...

Edwood
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Post by Edwood » Fri May 09, 2008 12:35 am

I'm more worried about the seek noise. The idle noise is apparently pretty quiet.

Metaluna
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Post by Metaluna » Fri May 09, 2008 6:33 am

Edwood wrote:When is the Velociraptor supposed to be available in the USA for sale?

When is SCPR labs getting theirs for review? :)
From the StorageReview article:

"While initial VelociRaptor shipments will go exclusively to a certain gaming-oriented OEM, WD estimates that individual units will hit distribution in mid-May."

ryboto
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Post by ryboto » Fri May 09, 2008 7:54 am

Don't know if anyone posted this, but a 150gb version of the drive will also be available

WD HDD PDF

Aris
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Post by Aris » Fri May 09, 2008 11:56 am

any word on if MikeC even has a sample yet for review? Id really like to see this drive on the front page before it hits shelves at newegg.

m^2
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Post by m^2 » Mon May 12, 2008 7:32 am

gmat wrote:There are some excellent 3.5"->5.25" silent enclosures (like the SilentMaxx i'm using with my current 150Gb Raptor - totally muffles the motor and almost kills the seek noise).
What about some nice 2.5"->5.25" enclosures that keep the drive quiet and cool ? I'd consider the Velociraptor only if i could put it in such a box. No naked drive in my PC, and the stock cooler keeps the drive naked, and seems designed for front-to-back airflow...
There is 2.5"->3.5" enclosure for laptop drives. Unless VR is too thick, you can use 2.5"->3.5"->5.25".

yefi
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Post by yefi » Wed May 14, 2008 4:44 am

Farinorco wrote:The major "bottleneck" in a computer is the user input by long. The user himself, in fact. Most user-input-oriented applications runtime is determined by user reactions and nothing else.
Yes, but, unlike a hard drive, I cannot easily disconnect my arms and install newer, faster ones.

Luminair
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Post by Luminair » Wed May 14, 2008 5:14 am

Farinorco wrote:Haha :lol: . As you can see, you're not saying nothing that I hadn't said, and even remarked, in both my own previous posts...

I'm not bashing anyone that want/prefer/consider to buy a VelociRaptor. In fact I've reached this thread searching info about this drive myself (why do you think I was reading this? :wink: )...

If you look carefully what I've said, I'm only replying a statement saying that "The HD is the major bottleneck in almost every computer, especially those playing games[...]". I think this aseveration is plain wrong because it's meaning that general performance in almost every computer is being hold back by the slooooooow (which it is) performance of the hard drive, especially when gaming... and the truth is that the performance of the hard drive has literally no noticeably effect on 99% of the tasks that an application does because of how they're all programmed to avoid using the hard drive when possible (and that's the 99.99% of the time, I insist). So hardly the hd can be the "major bottleneck" in a computer except if we're talking about a computer dedicated to some especific kinds of file working, not nearly "almost every computer", and by no means a "gamer computer". And this kind of ideas lead the people to confusion.

Of course, I'm not saying that a fast drive is useless. I don't think that a launching time of OpenOffice of 2 or 3 seconds matters. But, for example, if you work some hours, and save your work very often (I use to do it), the stops may turn to be annoying. Maybe a faster drive could make this more bearable. I know very well that you're talking about this kind of things. Then, you value if that 6x more expensive, a little louder drive, it's a good trade for you... I wasn't talking about that, this time.
you need to accept the truth. every game has loading times. most good games have LONG loading times. faster hard drives will lower these times.

loading times ~!@#$%^ suck and ruin the game experience, so fast hard drives are very good for games. 10 years ago we were buying faster hard drives to make games run faster. we still do this today. accept the truth. the end.

psyopper
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Post by psyopper » Wed May 14, 2008 9:02 am

Luminair wrote:10 years ago we were buying faster hard drives to make games run faster. we still do this today. accept the truth. the end.
Nah - 10 years ago I was buying hard drives for capacity because I didn't have room for Windows and more than one game. 10 years ago I was paying top dollar ($250 ish) for a 5GB drive to replace my 512Meg drive. Speed didn't matter, I just picked one that was ATA compatable with my southbridge.

Luminair
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Post by Luminair » Wed May 14, 2008 10:39 am

psyopper wrote: Nah - 10 years ago I was buying hard drives for capacity because I didn't have room for Windows and more than one game. 10 years ago I was paying top dollar ($250 ish) for a 5GB drive to replace my 512Meg drive. Speed didn't matter, I just picked one that was ATA compatable with my southbridge.
Poor you then. In 1997 I was playing Total Annihilation online with people who were using SCSI drives and dual Pentium Pro and Pentium II processors to load levels faster. TA shows a progress bar for every player in the game on the loading screen, and people with crappy computers held everyone else back for the 10 minutes it took them to load.

Every game loads data from the hard drive. HL2 loads a new map every 20 minutes. WOW loads new maps, Bioshock loads new maps. Every game does, and it breaks the experience... all thanks to the hard drive, the slowest bottleneck in the system.

Edwood
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Post by Edwood » Wed May 14, 2008 10:52 am

Luminair wrote:
Poor you then. In 1997 I was playing Total Annihilation online with people who were using SCSI drives and dual Pentium Pro and Pentium II processors to load levels faster. TA shows a progress bar for every player in the game on the loading screen, and people with crappy computers held everyone else back for the 10 minutes it took them to load.

Every game loads data from the hard drive. HL2 loads a new map every 20 minutes. WOW loads new maps, Bioshock loads new maps. Every game does, and it breaks the experience... all thanks to the hard drive, the slowest bottleneck in the system.
Heheh, I was one of those Pentium Pro bastards back then. On my smoking 28.8k connection. ;)

yuzgen
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Way too expensive

Post by yuzgen » Sat May 17, 2008 4:39 pm

Way too expensive. I love HDDs and I spent a lot of money for them. The most expensive stuff I buy for my computers have always been HDDs. I just go buy whenever I think a new model deserves it. Silence and capacity are the most important factors for me. That's why my desktop holds 2x1TB WD GPs and will stay this way until WD makes a bigger and "even" quieter HDD.

Buy two slower, cheaper and bigger HDDs instead of one VelociRaptor and use them wisely. Eg. use HDD-A for your OS and page file and HDD-B for big applications and games. Use both whenever it's possible; listen to your music from HDD-A while editing video on HDD-B. Use them both for packing, unpacking and copying stuff, one as the source and the other one as the target drive etc. You'll love the speed.

Of course if you spend money passionately for HDDs and your primary concern is speed, go buy shiny new VelociRaptor(s). It sure is FAST.

Just look at WD's product range BTW. The quietest (WD GP) and the fastest (WD VR) SATA HDD's are both WD. :)

yacoub
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Post by yacoub » Sat May 17, 2008 4:59 pm

Farinorco wrote: The major "bottleneck" in a computer is the user input by long.
Except that user input is irrelevant because when the user is doing something, the user is not waiting. It is everything ELSE that occurs between the time the user completes their input and the time when the results are presented to the user that is a concern.

yacoub
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Post by yacoub » Sat May 17, 2008 4:59 pm

ryboto wrote:Don't know if anyone posted this, but a 150gb version of the drive will also be available

WD HDD PDF
Awesome! That's perfect for a boot/OS drive, then. No need for 300GB for that, after all. :)

dhanson865
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Post by dhanson865 » Sat May 17, 2008 7:30 pm

Image
Disappointing Load Times for Games by Zefram0911, 1 days ago
Is anyone disappointed in the load times for games? Only beats my old raptors by 3-5 seconds.

RE: Disappointing Load Times for Games by tim851, 1 days ago
Seeing as all drives are quite close in load times I think it's safe to assume, that we've reach the apex and the load times are pretty much bottlenecked by CPU speed now.

Most real world application performance numbers are pretty close these days, there aren't any dead slow hard disks anymore. Flash won't bring us more speed, but less power draw and noise.

RE: Disappointing Load Times for Games by retrospooty, 1 days ago
"Is anyone disappointed in the load times for games? Only beats my old raptors by 3-5 seconds."

Ya, I have to wonder what the various gaming tests like "Vantage HDD Gaming" are measuring. SSD's consistantly blow HDD's out of the water scoring 300 to 500% higher on those tests (Gary's article is consistent with others I have seen)... Then real world game load and level load times are only like 5% higher.

What gives?


RE: Disappointing Load Times for Games by JarredWalton, 1 days ago
It's the nature of the benchmark: access a large amount of data in a fairly random fashion and don't do ANY processing of the data, and you end up with the theoretical performance of the hard drive. That's pretty much what IPEAK-based testing accomplishes.

Games have been mostly bottlenecked by CPUs, GPUs, and RAM for a long time - load times with 2GB RAM are substantially faster than with 1GB of RAM, and even 4GB of RAM can show some speedup in certain newer games. The reason for the CPU bottleneck on level loads is that most games compress data in order to conserve space; decompressing all the textures and models and such takes a fair amount of CPU power, to the point where the hard drives probably only need to sustain around 15-25MB/s.

Matija
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Re: Way too expensive

Post by Matija » Sat May 17, 2008 11:21 pm

yuzgen wrote:Buy two slower, cheaper and bigger HDDs instead of one VelociRaptor and use them wisely. Eg. use HDD-A for your OS and page file and HDD-B for big applications and games. Use both whenever it's possible; listen to your music from HDD-A while editing video on HDD-B. Use them both for packing, unpacking and copying stuff, one as the source and the other one as the target drive etc. You'll love the speed.
And then one of them will die, and you don't have RAID-1. Furthermore, with HD-DVD being dead and Blu-Ray not getting cheaper, you don't have much of a backup solution - unless you are willing to burn close to 230 DVDs per 1 TB.

:)

Luminair
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Post by Luminair » Sun May 18, 2008 5:18 am

> The reason for the CPU bottleneck on level loads is that most games compress data in order to conserve space; decompressing all the textures and models and such takes a fair amount of CPU power, to the point where the hard drives probably only need to sustain around 15-25MB/s.

You make a compelling argument. :) It was running around 2.5ghz, and there is room for that to be faster. http://www.anandtech.com/storage/showdo ... i=3311&p=3

However, unless we get CPU benchmarks of Crysis level loading, this is just speculation, unfortunately...

dhanson865
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Post by dhanson865 » Sun May 18, 2008 6:46 am

Since a level load is pretty much all reads no writes and modern hard drives are hitting 80 to 100 MB/s on reads easily then a CPU twice as fast wouldn't outstrip the drive if his contention of 25MB/s is enough.

Take the link from earlier in this thread http://www.nextlevelhardware.com/storage/barracudaraid/ they used a 4.0 GHz Intel QX9650

Image

Doesn't matter much what the bottleneck is. People are throwing insanely fast systems at the problem and game level load times don't change much...

yuzgen
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Re: Way too expensive

Post by yuzgen » Sun May 18, 2008 8:23 am

Matija wrote:
yuzgen wrote:Buy two slower, cheaper and bigger HDDs instead of one VelociRaptor and use them wisely. Eg. use HDD-A for your OS and page file and HDD-B for big applications and games. Use both whenever it's possible; listen to your music from HDD-A while editing video on HDD-B. Use them both for packing, unpacking and copying stuff, one as the source and the other one as the target drive etc. You'll love the speed.
And then one of them will die, and you don't have RAID-1. Furthermore, with HD-DVD being dead and Blu-Ray not getting cheaper, you don't have much of a backup solution - unless you are willing to burn close to 230 DVDs per 1 TB.

:)
GPs are not full (yet). Actually I won't lose any data older than 1 week. I bougth both of the GPs as external MyBooks. Then I exhanged GPs with my previous couple (a 750GB WD7500AAKS and a 500GB Samsung HD501LJ) from my desktop.

So, in total, I have 2TB internal and 1.25TB external HDD storage. I burned DVDs for years and old important data is already on HDDs and DVDs. No need to backup them again. Newer data is backed up to externals at weekends.

I know it's harder to maintain when compared to a RAID setup but I get more space for less money. Second HDD can also sleep most of the time, so it's a quiter and more energy saving setup.

I don't burn DVDs anymore, because last time I calculated, a good brand 1TB HDD space cost four times more than a good brand 1TB DVD space. Then you can reach (and delete if you like) stuff on HDDs, much quicker. Burning DVDs was also a torture to my soul. You must also try hard to fill the DVDs to use the space at the optimum level but not with HDDs, so I guess it's worth to buy HDDs instead of DVDs.

josephclemente
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Post by josephclemente » Tue May 27, 2008 7:54 pm

This drive is now available at Newegg for $299.99 with free shipping.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6822136260

Edwood
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Post by Edwood » Tue May 27, 2008 8:24 pm

When is SPCR going to be getting their hands on one to review?

Edwood
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Post by Edwood » Sun Jun 01, 2008 4:21 am

So, did anyone buy one? I'm wondering if it will fit in the 2.5" Scythe box.

-Ed

josephclemente
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Post by josephclemente » Sun Jun 01, 2008 12:43 pm

I bought two Velociraptors. They are quite a bit thicker than laptop drives but the thickness is pretty common for 2.5" non-laptop drives like SAS drives.

I'm not familiar with the Scythe box - I couldn't find any documentation for it and their site doesn't specify if it is only for laptop drives.

Also, to my surprise when I checked WD's documentation online - the 5 year warranty is VOID when you remove these drives from the 3.5" aluminum frame!! :shock:

These drives are probably worth it for those who need 7 MS Access Time for the entire 300 GB drive size.

To compare with a different drive, I have measured 8.0 MS Access Time on my short-stroked 640GB WD6400AAKS drives (Raid 0, 128 GB OS Partition and the rest used for slower access data). So a single WD6400AAKS with a 64GB OS partition and remaining space used for slower access data should provide 8.0 MS as well (although HD Tune will measure the whole drive when you try to benchmark it). Note that I did the benchmark on the drives while they were being used for OS - so performance might measure better if the OS wasn't tickling them at the same time they were being benchmarked.

The Velociraptors are not as quiet as my laptop Scorpio drives (120 GB and 320 GB). Fujitsu announced 7200 RPM SATA drives for 24-hour desktop use, maybe those will be of interest to SPCR users. The Velociraptors are quieter than my WD6400AAKS drives, although the Velociraptors have a faint whine, even suspended - the heavy door on my P182 case makes a huge difference. I don't think they'd sound as good in an Antec Solo. Something more needs to be done to make these drives dead-quiet high-performers. I am curious about the Scythe box myself.

Honestly, for my own needs, these drives were a huge waste of money with no noticable performance increase and not enough silencing. Even if the drives were $150 each, I'd still have the same concerns when comparing them to the WD6400AAKS. They are awesome for those who really need it - a huge multi-user database or other demanding applications. But for me, my short-stroked WD6400AAKS setup had awesome performance and was much cheaper. I'm not sure if I should bite the 15% restocking fees or just keep them as an expensive luxury item...

Edit: I decided to keep the drives, some case mods made them really, really quiet.
Last edited by josephclemente on Thu Jul 03, 2008 5:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Edwood
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Post by Edwood » Sun Jun 01, 2008 3:37 pm

Is there a sticker or something that would indicate the 2.5" drive being removed from the 3.5" sled?

So the Velociraptor is quieter than the WD6400AAKS? Even seek noises?

If so, the Velociraptor will be on my short list for a must buy.

-Ed

josephclemente
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Post by josephclemente » Sun Jun 01, 2008 4:00 pm

Edwood wrote:Is there a sticker or something that would indicate the 2.5" drive being removed from the 3.5" sled?

So the Velociraptor is quieter than the WD6400AAKS? Even seek noises?

If so, the Velociraptor will be on my short list for a must buy.

-Ed
There is no sticker to indicate the 2.5" drive is removed from the sled. It uses those "star" pattern hex screws to make removal require the right tool. Those screws made me curious if there was a warranty issue so I checked the Western Digital website to verify.

It is definitely quieter than the WD6400AAKS, both seek and idle. I compared one drive at a time outside the case, I have two samples of thw WD6400AAKS, and two samples of the Velociraptor. I could not detect any variance between the samples of the same model. Definitely audible, however. My P182SE is seriously quiet when no hard drives are installed. A single suspended hard drive is all it takes to know the computer is on (when the house air conditioning is not running).

LG is noisy
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Post by LG is noisy » Wed Jun 04, 2008 2:31 pm

how much time does it take to load the O.S.??? (windows xp)

its important for me lol.

Do programs and games load quickly?

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