fans and cooling, P180 mini

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Winnick
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fans and cooling, P180 mini

Post by Winnick » Wed Jun 09, 2010 4:56 am

The system is as following:

Case: Antec P180 Mini
PSU: Enermax 82+ Modu
Motherboard: Asus M4A785TD-V EVO
CPU: Athlon II X3 455
GPU: Radeon 4850

Everything is at stock.

Game played Mass Effect 2.

Highest measured temperature, degrees celcius (source ASUS Probe II)

Test 1 - 200mm on low, 120mm off
CPU: 53
MB 46
Stock CPU fan spins at around 3000rpm

Test 2 - 200mm on medium, 120mm off
CPU: 52
MB: 42
Stock CPU fan spins at around 2800rpm

Test 3 - 200mm off, 120mm on low
CPU: 50
MB: 46
Stock CPU fan spins at around 2800rpm

Test 4 - 200mm off, 120mm on medium
CPU: 48
MB 44
Stock CPU fan spins at around 2700rpm

test 5 - 200mm off, 120mm reversed on low
CPU: 53
MB: 48
Stock CPU fan spins at around 3000rpm

Test 6 - 200mm off, 120mm reversed on medium,
CPU:52
MB: 42
Stock CPU fan spins at around 3000rpm

Largest source of Noise: GPU - but cannot do anything about that now. Will consider 3rd party cooler later. Accelero twin turbo pro, perhaps?

Considerations:
-Replace 120mm fan with Nexus fan
-Find out how to do a 7v mod on the 200mm and run that at full speed (standard setup has three speeds).

I was suggested to try to mount another 120mm nexus fan on the stock cooler on the CPU instead of the stock fan - does anybody have a link to a description how to do this, I assume some sort of trick is needed?

Purchases should be kept at a minimum as I am on a budget

(edit, added GPU)
Last edited by Winnick on Wed Jun 09, 2010 10:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Das_Saunamies
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Post by Das_Saunamies » Wed Jun 09, 2010 6:43 am

So the problem is first and foremost noise, I take it, since those temperature readings are not alarming.

Stock CPU coolers, *brrr*. While they're cheap ("free", since you buy the stuff bundled), they are usually horrible for silent operation - they're designed to be "good enough", meaning they can keep the CPU from overheating under load at minimum cost.

A third-party CPU cooler would be my first stop (>1k RPM is unacceptable for silence). More fans will only mean more noise, and the heat dissipation capacity of the stock cooler has probably been reached. My personal favourite is Noctua for their wonderful mounting system, excellent performance and quiet fans. They're not cheap, but they're a sure pick. SPCR Recommended Heatsinks you can find here, maybe there's one you can afford if a Noctua proves to be too much.

After getting a solid cooler comes enhancing cool air intake: a gutsy S-FLEX fan in the front would be my choice. If you're seriously limited on budget, the Antec fan could go in the front, but that would mean you'd have to cover the hole in the back so as not to short-circulate the remaining exhaust. You absolutely need good air circulation to keep noise levels down for automatic systems - and it's essential for system components that have to rely on passive cooling.

A GPU cooler louder than a 3000 RPM fan? That must be diabolical. An aftermarket solution is cheaper than buying an entirely new card, but a good stock cooler will save you both time and nerves.

JamieG
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Post by JamieG » Wed Jun 09, 2010 3:22 pm

SPCR article on 5V / 7V trick here. Basically, you will need to swap some pins on a molex connector going to the top 200mm fan to get 7V.

For your CPU cooler, if you are on a budget, I'd suggest the recently reviewed Coolermaster Hyper 212+. You'll probably need a replacement CPU fan, as the stock fan on this can get a little loud.

So buy 2 x Nexus fans, one to replace your rear exhaust fan and one as a replacement CPU cooler fan.

I don't think you said what GPU you've got. For controlling GPU fan speeds in software, try RivaTuner for Nvidia cards and ATI's Catalyst Control Centre for ATI cards.

Winnick
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Post by Winnick » Wed Jun 09, 2010 11:07 pm

@Das_Saunamies:
Yes, the primary concern is noise.

I find when I'm just online, the CPU Fan will slow down to 2000rpm and the GPU is not spinning (according to ATI tools). If I have the two casefans on low - or the 200mm on medium - the noise is not intrusive, but still present.

the GPU fan stays unobtrusive currently if it stays at 33% fan speed or below - but playing games, it does not stay there.

I have been looking at the recommended CPU cooler list - but I would wish that the stock cooler could be found for comparison reasons.
And I read that someone had tried mounting a 120mm fan on a stock cooler - but I cannot find anything on that.

An intake fan is more important that an exhaust fan? - My testing here shows that the temperature stays lower when the 120mm fan is sucking air out of the machine?(could of course be the fact that the fans is still in the back of the machine)

I have been looking around that the Nexus fan is less than half price of any of the other fans recommended here on SPCR - so that will be my target.

Das_Saunamies
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Post by Das_Saunamies » Thu Jun 10, 2010 2:33 am

Winnick wrote:An intake fan is more important that an exhaust fan? - My testing here shows that the temperature stays lower when the 120mm fan is sucking air out of the machine?(could of course be the fact that the fans is still in the back of the machine)
What I'm saying is, good airflow is most important of all. Y'can see it from your own testing how introducing cool air improves the cooling: the 120 mm on Medium Intake yields just as good results as the 200 mm on Medium Exhaust. (RPM difference could be explained by the case fan BLOWING AGAINST the cooler, and it's only 200 RPM)

This is gonna be a long post since it'll have to go from basics to individual case.

The top corner needs to stay as an exhaust, because if you introduce intake through there, the hot air will meet resistance at its most natural exit (both as intakes) or there will be short-circuiting of cool air (intake+exhaust), where the cool air will quickly get sucked out without touching many system components at all.

I whipped these up on my now-extended lunch break:

Image
Hot air short-circuit via PCI cover plates.

Image
Short-circuiting the top-corner is bad, mmkay.

Image
Ideal airflow (all components covered, exhaust is prompt, short-circuiting blocked)

These are overly simplistic, mind you, because unlike electricity, airflow is a total bitch to accurately simulate. Basically you have to bear in mind that you need efficient cool air delivery to ensure long-term stability, and any fan blowing against another fan or natural convection is going to upset the system. It should all be very Zen, just flowing naturally. :idea:

Introducing cool air will also reduce the RPM of any automated systems, as the components run cooler and stay cool longer. A poor GPU cooler (95% of them?) will speed up in room temperature, no matter what you do, simply because modern GPUs are like volcanoes compared to other system components.

The 200/120 matchup I feel is a bad choice by Antec because the bigger fan may overpower the smaller one. I've experimented with Noctua vs Scythe as P182 exhausts, and the gutsy S-FLEX would cause the weaker Noctua to go up and down in RPM - I'm guessing this would translate into extra stress on the fan just because of poor pairing.

Coming back to CPU coolers, you can find Intel stock coolers (at least the more interesting ones) reviewed in the Cooling section. Neither of the two I remember managed to impress anyone. The lesson there was (AFAICR) that you can cool a CPU in idle or at low loads with just about any old hunk-o-junk, but it's at heavy loads where the going gets rough and the POS cheapos fail.

In summary: airflow is important to help coolers maximize their potential, both active and passive, but it's the cooler (and its heat dissipation capacity) that determines efficiency and noise levels in the end.

m0002a
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Post by m0002a » Thu Jun 10, 2010 3:29 am

You definitely need a new CPU HS. I have a P180 Mini with AMD 240e CPU (2.8 GHz dual core), and Xigmatech S-1283 HS and would highly recommend that particular HS with AMD processors (especially with the P180 Mini due to its top case fan).

Since I don't play high-end games, I happen to have the S-1283 HS installed without any fan, partly because of the 200 mm top case fan (on low speed) sitting above the CPU HS, not too far away. I also have the rear 120 mm fan set on low (but probably could disable it).

My CPU idles and handles most internet surfing (with Cool n Quiet) at an astounding 20 C according to Asus Probe, even though my ambient temperature is about 22 C. Obviously the 20C is not accurate, but nevertheless the CPU runs amazingly cool with the combination of the S-1283 and the Antec P180 Mini with top fan on Low. 240e doesn't hurt either.

For this particular HS I would recommend Artic Cermanique paste, which tends to flow better that the silver. Apply it to the HS, not the CPU (unlike other HS's with one big flat surface). You will understand if you look at the bottom of a S-1283 HS with its direct contact of the 3 heat pipes to the CPU spreader.

Das_Saunamies
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Post by Das_Saunamies » Thu Jun 10, 2010 5:18 am

m0002a wrote:Since I don't play high-end games, I happen to have the S-1283 HS installed without any fan, partly because of the 200 mm top case fan (on low speed) sitting above the CPU HS, not too far away. I also have the rear 120 mm fan set on low (but probably could disable it).
I played titles like Crysis and Left 4 Dead with a passive Minja in my P182, the exhausts can certainly work in that role if the cooler is good and suited for low airflow use.

When you say "HS", I keep thinking of HeatSpreader, not HeatSink, for some reason. That's why I always spell it out or say "cooler".

m0002a
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Post by m0002a » Thu Jun 10, 2010 4:59 pm

Das_Saunamies wrote:When you say "HS", I keep thinking of HeatSpreader, not HeatSink, for some reason. That's why I always spell it out or say "cooler".
I live in the southern part of the US. Around here, we don't use the word "cooler" lightly, and usually not unless there is some kind of refrigeration unit attached to it. :lol:

Das_Saunamies
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Post by Das_Saunamies » Fri Jun 11, 2010 2:48 am

m0002a wrote:
Das_Saunamies wrote:When you say "HS", I keep thinking of HeatSpreader, not HeatSink, for some reason. That's why I always spell it out or say "cooler".
I live in the southern part of the US. Around here, we don't use the word "cooler" lightly, and usually not unless there is some kind of refrigeration unit attached to it. :lol:
Ah, fair enough - cultural peculiarities! 8)

Winnick
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Post by Winnick » Fri Jun 11, 2010 6:37 am

@Das_Saunamies: Thanks for the images - it clearly explains something simple - it just did not cross my mind when I was testing :-)

So, You suggest sealing the place in the top back where the current 120mm fan is located - and just use the 200mm?

I found the Hyper 212 at a reasonable price, the same place where I can get the Nexus fans from. So that will be my solution.

So - The hyper 212 to replace the stock CPU cooler/heatsink ;-) ,one Nexus fan as a front intake fan and one to replace the stock fan of the Hyper - that is your budget suggestion?

The front intake fan can hopefully also do something to help the GPU cooler.

Das_Saunamies
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Post by Das_Saunamies » Fri Jun 11, 2010 8:35 am

Winnick wrote:@Das_Saunamies: Thanks for the images - it clearly explains something simple - it just did not cross my mind when I was testing :-)

So, You suggest sealing the place in the top back where the current 120mm fan is located - and just use the 200mm?
[...]
So - The hyper 212 to replace the stock CPU cooler/heatsink ;-) ,one Nexus fan as a front intake fan and one to replace the stock fan of the Hyper - that is your budget suggestion?
I find drawing pictures is usually better than using four lines of text to explain a simple thing. :D

You only need to seal up the 120 mm hole if it's empty; putting a fan there might not be a bad idea. The P180 Mini is a small case though, so the 200 mm fan could be all that's needed for exhaust. Two 120 mm at the front could even create enough positive pressure to reduce dust intake (from unfiltered holes and cracks in the case).

I personally prefer taping over the perforated PCI slot covers, as it reduces dust intake dramatically in my case.

Nexus fans sound like a good drop-in solution. Depending on the level you're used to, you might not even need to adjust them from 1k RPM.

Winnick
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Post by Winnick » Sun Jun 13, 2010 12:16 am

OK, I checked around online stores and stores with a website here in Budapest - and it seems that the Hyper 212 + nexus fan costs the same as a Mugen 2 by itself. And as far as I can see from the tests in here, the Mugen 2 is the better cooler/Heatsink and no need to replace the stock fan.

So that will be the choice.

I will buy the Mugen 2 + 1 Nexus fan 120mm Real silent fan.

Then I will test them alone - see what results I get, and then try to put the Antec 120mm fan as an intake fan, see what difference that makes.

Then I'll move the nexus as the intake fan - and try if I can find some simple way to seal off the hole where the antec fan currently sits - see if there is a noticeable difference between that hole sealed or not.

so, test setups to play around with

1)Mugen 2 + nexus + 200mm (at different speed steps)
1)Mugen 2 + nexus (at different speed steps)
3)mugen 2 + nexus + 200mm + antec as front intake
4)mugen 2 + 200mm + nexus as front intake (with and without sealing the org top back hole.

Thank you very much for all your input

Das_Saunamies
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Post by Das_Saunamies » Sun Jun 13, 2010 5:24 am

You're welcome, and good luck! 8)

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