Seeking Planning Advice (Gaming/Development: Spring 2011)

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figment
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Seeking Planning Advice (Gaming/Development: Spring 2011)

Post by figment » Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:16 am

First: I understand that its far too early to make specific decisions. However, I've found that I've had the most success (technologically and monetarily) if I have a good head start on system decisions before I actually need to make them. To that end:

I'm currently planning to build a Gaming/Development sometime in the Spring/Summer of 2011. I want to try to get an idea of what directions I should be heading in to get what I want. I've been building my own systems since 1997, but I don't actively research unless I've actually got a system planned, so I always end up spending some time just getting back up to speed. My budget is set at USD $1200 +/-$150 (when is it ever minus?). Here's a brief overview of the plan as it stands now:

Requirements:
8+GB RAM
Mid-High range gaming graphics
ATX form factor (mid-tower or similar)
Quad-core CPU

Preferred:
Front case door protecting power switch (cats love power switches)
SSD Boot Drive
Quad-core with Hyperthreading

Not Required:
Blu-Ray Support
Large file storage (500+GB storage available via Linux server)
Overclocking Ability
Integrated Graphics

Not Wanted
SLI Video
Water cooling

Build Priorities: (ie: when you have to choose between...)
67% Quietness / 33% Power
50% Reliability / 50% Cost Efficiency

Now, the questions I have at the moment are:
  • Obviously Sandy Bridge is the prime target for the build. At the moment I expect to grab one of the Socket 1155 CPUs. I don't see much to gain in the 1356 or 2011 sockets as they will be far more power than I would normally use. Looking at the planned releases, the i7-2600S looks appealing due to its lower TDP, hyperthreading, and the fact that I don't see a need to overclock. However, the released price list has it being sold at $306 while the unlocked i7-2600K is at just $317. The i7-2600 is actually cheaper than the S model. Is there something I'm missing about the S model? Why does it cost more? At that point, should I just go for the K and overclock if I feel like it? Is there any benefit to the lower TDP of the S? Or is it just lower because of the weaker video unit that I won't be using anyway?
  • One of the first questions I have to figure out is what case the whole thing goes in. My current systems use an old Sonata II case and a P182. Obviously, the P183 is a contender for the new build, but I'd consider other options. The Fractal Design cases are interesting. I believe that NCIX is stocking them now. I know this is a topic that's brought up a ton in the Cases forum and I've probably read through all the threads that are there. Still, I'm left undecided and not unwilling to look at other options. I feel that until I've worked out what sort of case it's going in, its hard to decide on other things like CPU heat sink, RAM (because of the HS), PSU, and even the video card to some extent. Do we think that Sandy Bridge and associated motherboards are likely to change any of the current thoughts about cases?
  • I'd like to feel wild and crazy and try out an SSD as a boot drive. I know people are talking about upcoming revisions of the SSD tech and how its going to double sizes for the same price and be loads faster and buy everyone a pony. Is that actually happening? Will it happen within my timeline? Either way, is there any real benefit to SATA-III in real-world system usage?
  • The build will sit next to a Linux box and accept audio-in from the linux box. As much as my novice understanding of electronics would suggest that I shouldn't have interference, the setup is regularly plagued by system-based interference on the sound-out. I'm considering trying an external USB sound "card". Does anyone have any experience with them? Are they worthwhile or should I just deal with the minor amount of static?
Sorry for the wall-o-text. I can break these out into individual topics (and I probably will, if I haven't resolved them before I actually start daily-price-sniping), but it would just be nice to see some other people's opinions while I figure out what I really want to do.

Cerb
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Re: Seeking Planning Advice (Gaming/Development: Spring 2011

Post by Cerb » Tue Dec 07, 2010 7:47 am

CPU: just get an unlocked one and be done with it. Intel is keeping the price differences small, and it look like that will be the norm. Sometimes more, sometimes less, but the difference will likely remain so little that if you think you may want it, just get it as insurance.

Case: new mobos aren't going to change anything.

SSD: right after you get one, some that are bigger, cheaper, and faster will come out. Like platter drives, don't sweat it. Get the best you can when you're otherwise ready. The random access performance of the good ones is simply insane.

SATA-III: don't worry about it. It will become the norm, and your motherboard will likely have it. However, it's getting out there well before it is truly needed, much like faster PCI-e specs. If you go uATX, make sure your board has it. If not, you can always get a card, later, if you happen to find a good board w/o it (that said, it's hard to escape even today).

Sound: do you need them to mix, or could you switch between them? If swapping between them is an option, a USB DAC would be a cost-efficient way to go, compared to buying a quality internal sound card for each PC. USB switches are easy to come by, these days.

figment
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Re: Seeking Planning Advice (Gaming/Development: Spring 2011

Post by figment » Tue Dec 07, 2010 10:26 am

Cerb wrote:CPU: just get an unlocked one and be done with it.
I was originally planning to avoid the K's because they are going to be the most popular cpu for the high-end enthusiast and that tends to make them harder to find and more expensive to buy. Since I won't feel sad if I can't overclock, it didn't seem worth the hassle. However, if its only $10 difference, then I can't see why I wouldn't buy the K version and apply a mild overclock. Why wouldn't everyone? What is even the point of the non-K/non-S variant? Or is this just a manifestation of crazy Intel pricing?

The question still remains about the TDP. I know I shouldn't obsess too much on this, but I was hoping to be able to reduce the number of fans in the case. I have to assume that the 95W is the TDP of the 4 cores plus the integrated graphics. If I disable/don't use the graphics, presumably I shouldn't be generating that heat, and I should drop down to something closer to the 65W TDP of the S version.

I suppose this is a little pointless to discuss now, with the release only a month away. I'll be looking forward to more information here.
Cerb wrote:Case: new mobos aren't going to change anything.
They'll be ATX and I have little doubt that they'll work in the cases, but its more a question of whether Sandy Bridge et al. will make one of these cases better than the other, or if it will put some more cases into the running. I know that the Fractal Design cases have a cutout for the CPU backplate. That's a nice feature, but it won't have much purpose if the socket shifts on the new motherboards. It also sounds like Sandy Bridge integrates the old northbridge (MCH?) into the CPU. I assume that there will still be a "southbridge" (if they still call it that). Does this make it easier to keep the system cool? Does it make it even more important to deliver cool air to the upper part of the motherboard? Does it make tower heatsinks even more dominant as there's even less need to divert air toward components near the socket?

It may be that there is nothing to talk about here. If that's the case then I've got my answer.
Cerb wrote:SSD: right after you get one, some that are bigger, cheaper, and faster will come out.
Yeah, I've made peace with this sort of thing a long time ago. However, there are usually some noticeable jumps in value/performance that are worth taking advantage of. I was pleased with my decision last build to hold out for the Yorkfield processors. The build before that was delayed so that I have a PCIe-based video card instead of AGP. If SSD development is just gradually improving, then I'll grab what I can when I'm ready. However, if there are any big jumps in technology coming up, I'd rather wait and take advantage of the improvement (unless its much more expensive).
Cerb wrote:SATA-III: don't worry about it. It will become the norm, and your motherboard will likely have it.
This is one of the things I was most curious about. SATA-III seems to have been out as a spec for a while and while a lot of motherboards have it, its not the sort of thing that all new motherboards are adding. How quickly is the industry adopting it? Have people had problems with the controllers? From what I've seen, even the fastest SSDs can't saturate a SATA-II connection, so is it worth caring about? Or is it one of those upgrades which is going to cause headaches now and only be useful in three years?
Cerb wrote:Sound: do you need them to mix, or could you switch between them?
I run two systems off a KVM and it already supports switching (and adds a small amount of hiss), but what I really want is for them to be mixed (thus still allowing me to mute one or the other). Of the two, the Windows box (the new build) is the more important one, while the Linux box (the "slave" in the audio setup) is mostly needed for audio alerts (incoming mail, IM) and some video playback (YouTube, etc). The Linux box will just use a patch cable from the onboard sound, though it supports optical if I decide to go that way. The Windows box is the one that plays games, music and TV/Movies.

dhanson865
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Re: Seeking Planning Advice (Gaming/Development: Spring 2011

Post by dhanson865 » Tue Dec 07, 2010 12:16 pm

figment wrote:Gaming/Development PC sometime in the Spring/Summer of 2011.

Requirements:
8+GB RAM
Mid-High range gaming graphics
Quad-core CPU

Preferred:
SSD Boot Drive
Quad-core with Hyperthreading

Build Priorities: (ie: when you have to choose between...)
67% Quietness / 33% Power
50% Reliability / 50% Cost Efficiency
It's too early to do price comparisons so I won't make a specific CPU choice but I'd ask that you keep an open mind for socket AM3+ and the "Zambezi" 4 core, 6 core, or 8 core processors. Given your specs and the pricing concerns I'd guess the 6 core or the 95W 8 core (staying away from the 125W version) but you may decide to save money and grab the 4 core version. They are currently set to begin full production in April/May with availability in June. So Q2 2011 is the launch period and that seems close to your timing. You could argue about "hyperthreading" but I think you'll find these products to be fast enough and provide enough cores to satisfy that requirement in any but the most literal sense.

AM3+ will support standard DD3 1600 for server and DDR3 1866 for desktop motherboards so that gives you an idea of the quality of ram to be looking for in 2011. 2010 boards treat DDR3 1866 as an overclocking option. In 2011 it'll be mainstream. Of course if you already have 8GB of DDR 3 1600 laying around I'd just re use it. To give you an idea newegg currently lists 203 skus for DDR 3 1600 and only 9 skus for DDR 3 1866 right now.

The chipset I'll be watching for is AMD 980G (AMD3+ & SB920) vs the current option of AMD 880G (AMD3 & SB850) both do 6Gb/s SATA but the SB920/SB950 will surely handle it faster/better. Oh and AM3 chips will work in a AM3+ board but AM3+ chips are not a valid upgrade (won't fit in the socket) on AM3 boards.

Oh and if you just hate having integrated graphics present you could look at the AMD 970 chipset paired with the SB 920 or SB 950 and save a couple of watts but you'll probably have more choices of boards with the 980G chipset than the 970 chipset. There is also the 990FX chipset but no reason to get it if you aren't going to do multiple video cards.

As to SSDs and SATA 6Gb/s only Marvel/Crucial/Micron C300 (only one SSD) currently handles it but it does make a noticeable difference in speed. Word is that Intel 3rd Gen SSDs will still be using 3Gb/s SATA but its still to be seen how pricing will be between 3rd Gen Intel vs Crucial C300. You may decide to go with the cheaper of the two and it won't hurt to have the controller on the MB ready for that faster SSD that will be out later in 2011/2012/2013 that you'll want to upgrade to later.

Personally I'd consider a good Intel or C300 SSD a must for a 2011 build. I wouldn't consider it wild or crazy. Wild and Crazy would be buying a sandforce based SSD and not doing frequent enough backups.

For gaming graphics, If you are in the US I'd use the AMD 5750 fanless as your standard, if you are in Europe maybe the AMD 5770 fanless is an option. Looking forward to 2011 there is talk of a 6850 fanless but that is too high on the power curve / price curve for my taste. Both the 5770 fanless in Europe and the 6850 fanless that hasn't been released yet have oversized heatsinks. The 5750 fanless is tame by comparison and would fit in any case that had room for two slot card.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison ... .29_series shows a as yet unamed card (Code name "Turks") that will cost less than the 6850 that will be out in Q1 2011. That is likely to be the sweet spot for a quiet video card to compare to the 5750 fanless and I'd make the decision between those two cards.

Of course if you don't want silent gaming and actually want to go for a faster GPU you could grab something like the Asus DirectCU 6850 that was reviewed here recently. By Summer 2011 those should be reasonably priced.

ilovejedd
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Re: Seeking Planning Advice (Gaming/Development: Spring 2011

Post by ilovejedd » Tue Dec 07, 2010 12:34 pm

figment wrote:
  • Obviously Sandy Bridge is the prime target for the build. At the moment I expect to grab one of the Socket 1155 CPUs. I don't see much to gain in the 1356 or 2011 sockets as they will be far more power than I would normally use. Looking at the planned releases, the i7-2600S looks appealing due to its lower TDP, hyperthreading, and the fact that I don't see a need to overclock. However, the released price list has it being sold at $306 while the unlocked i7-2600K is at just $317. The i7-2600 is actually cheaper than the S model. Is there something I'm missing about the S model? Why does it cost more? At that point, should I just go for the K and overclock if I feel like it? Is there any benefit to the lower TDP of the S? Or is it just lower because of the weaker video unit that I won't be using anyway?
The S models have always carried a price premium over regular models. It's not that bad now, actually. Before, you'd have to shell out an extra $50~$100 for one of the S models. As for why there's a price premium, simple, they're binned to make sure they don't exceed the advertised TDP at full load. This can be critical when building an ultra-SFF PC or if the motherboard doesn't allow CPU with higher power requirements. For example, you can try using a 95W Lynnfield on an Intel DH57JG but it's a gamble whether it will work or not. Some work, some don't.

Still, I suggest keeping an open mind on the platform. We're bound to see some Bulldozer/Zambezi benchmarks during Sandy Bridge's release.
figment wrote:
  • I'd like to feel wild and crazy and try out an SSD as a boot drive. I know people are talking about upcoming revisions of the SSD tech and how its going to double sizes for the same price and be loads faster and buy everyone a pony. Is that actually happening? Will it happen within my timeline? Either way, is there any real benefit to SATA-III in real-world system usage?
New SSD's will probably be released/announced during CES so yeah, I think they should arrive right on time for your build. Not saying you should buy them but perhaps we'll see some more price drops on existing models. One thing nice about the newer SSD's is they seem to have longer lifespans compared to current models (at least looking at spec sheets). Just something to ponder. :)

Modo
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Re: Seeking Planning Advice (Gaming/Development: Spring 2011

Post by Modo » Tue Dec 07, 2010 12:51 pm

Given how much the i7-2600S will auto-overclock, I'd say it is a prime candidate for a quiet gaming rig, unless AMD can whip up some terrific magic. Remember that many games still are not using more than 2 cores, so the high turbo difference will be an important factor in a CPU that's guaranteed to be relatively cool.

BTW, the new tech convergence next spring also includes AMD (there's already the first fanless 6850 available, maybe higher models will also show up), and possibly even Microsoft (Windows 7 SP1). I'm also planning a new rig because of this. :)

dhanson865
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Re: Seeking Planning Advice (Gaming/Development: Spring 2011

Post by dhanson865 » Tue Dec 07, 2010 8:29 pm

Modo wrote:Given how much the i7-2600S will auto-overclock, I'd say it is a prime candidate for a quiet gaming rig, unless AMD can whip up some terrific magic.
"Thuban" cores already auto overclock and "Zambezi" is supposed to be even better.

Cerb
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Re: Seeking Planning Advice (Gaming/Development: Spring 2011

Post by Cerb » Tue Dec 07, 2010 8:39 pm

figment wrote:Does this make it easier to keep the system cool? Does it make it even more important to deliver cool air to the upper part of the motherboard? Does it make tower heatsinks even more dominant as there's even less need to divert air toward components near the socket?

It may be that there is nothing to talk about here. If that's the case then I've got my answer.
Pretty much. A Watt is a Watt is a Watt. The S seem to have lower base frequencies, too. Maybe they have weaker IGP?
SATA-III seems to have been out as a spec for a while and while a lot of motherboards have it, its not the sort of thing that all new motherboards are adding. How quickly is the industry adopting it? Have people had problems with the controllers? From what I've seen, even the fastest SSDs can't saturate a SATA-II connection, so is it worth caring about? Or is it one of those upgrades which is going to cause headaches now and only be useful in three years?
There do seem to be some issues with the Marvell chip, but nothing major. Mostly screwing up quasi-software RAID functionality, and I think it doesn't support trim (Intel's SATA controller w/ MS' driver should, though). If you go normal with ATX, cards with mature chips will be available, later on. Remember that it's main advantage is the ability to exceed 300MB/s...which 99% of the people will not notice outside of benchmarks, even power users.
I run two systems off a KVM and it already supports switching (and adds a small amount of hiss), but what I really want is for them to be mixed (thus still allowing me to mute one or the other). Of the two, the Windows box (the new build) is the more important one, while the Linux box (the "slave" in the audio setup) is mostly needed for audio alerts (incoming mail, IM) and some video playback (YouTube, etc). The Linux box will just use a patch cable from the onboard sound, though it supports optical if I decide to go that way. The Windows box is the one that plays games, music and TV/Movies.
Behringer's U-Control series might be just what you want. USB on the main PC, analog input from the other, and not expensive. Then, something like this for the input. I'm pretty sure the UCA202 and UCA222 only differ in color and software bundle.

figment
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Re: Seeking Planning Advice (Gaming/Development: Spring 2011

Post by figment » Wed Dec 08, 2010 12:47 pm

dhanson865 wrote:It's too early to do price comparisons so I won't make a specific CPU choice but I'd ask that you keep an open mind for socket AM3+ and the "Zambezi" 4 core, 6 core, or 8 core processors.
Good point. Yeah, I'll give Bulldozer a chance. At the moment, if I were forced to put down money, I'd guess that Intel will still have the right price/performance point for me, however, its unfair to AMD to decide before I see Bulldozer. (I'm not brand loyal, my last four builds are split evenly between Intel and AMD). And thanks for the extra information on chipset and RAM. That's just as important to take into account for my planning.
dhanson865 wrote:Oh and if you just hate having integrated graphics present you could look at the AMD 970 chipset paired with the SB 920 or SB 950 and save a couple of watts but you'll probably have more choices of boards with the 980G chipset than the 970 chipset. There is also the 990FX chipset but no reason to get it if you aren't going to do multiple video cards.
I don't hate having integrated graphics, I just don't plan to ever use them (and if I did, it would be for the time when the build retires to the cushy life of being my Linux server. At that point, I would want Intel integrated graphics). In the past, getting a motherboard with integrated graphics meant that you either paid more or gave up something else you might have wanted. However, it seems they are getting more and more popular, so I'll try to keep a more open mind about them.
dhanson865 wrote:As to SSDs and SATA 6Gb/s only Marvel/Crucial/Micron C300 (only one SSD) currently handles it but it does make a noticeable difference in speed.
Good to know. I guess I will note this as a topic that should be researched in full before picking my motherboard.
dhanson865 wrote:For gaming graphics, If you are in the US I'd use the AMD 5750 fanless as your standard, if you are in Europe maybe the AMD 5770 fanless is an option.
I left out discussion of graphics because the past has taught me that its one of the last decisions to be made. I usually buy a card which is pretty respectable at the time of the build, with the intention that it will still be capable three years later. Usually $200-$250 is about the price point which can last three years and yet still save money over buying two separate cards every 18 months. I'd expect that would put me in line to get one of the 68xx's or a GTX 4xx/5xx. I don't generally care as much about being fanless. As long as a video card isn't noisy, I'm fine. It will be the one component putting out noise, so it generally doesn't make much impact.

figment
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Re: Seeking Planning Advice (Gaming/Development: Spring 2011

Post by figment » Wed Dec 08, 2010 1:18 pm

ilovejedd wrote:The S models have always carried a price premium over regular models. It's not that bad now, actually. Before, you'd have to shell out an extra $50~$100 for one of the S models. As for why there's a price premium, simple, they're binned to make sure they don't exceed the advertised TDP at full load.
Oh. I figured it was because they were actually stripped down in some way to reduce power consumption. So, the S is actually a premium marking, telling you that they've binned it as a "better" chip than the unmarked ones.

Huh. As much as I'd like the lower TDP, I don't know if its worth it. I think I'd rather just go with the K --or even the standard-- than pay extra for a special binning that doesn't really apply to my requirements.
ilovejedd wrote:New SSD's will probably be released/announced during CES so yeah, I think they should arrive right on time for your build. Not saying you should buy them but perhaps we'll see some more price drops on existing models. One thing nice about the newer SSD's is they seem to have longer lifespans compared to current models (at least looking at spec sheets). Just something to ponder. :)
I've decided to give SSD's a try, even though I recognize that the improvement will be more about enjoyment than requirement. That said, I'm still fairly careful about my builds (not shocking since I'm planning 4-6 months early), and reliability is important. If the new SSDs are more reliable, I'll probably favor them. If they are just larger/faster with little or no reliability improvement, then I'll probably take advantage of the imminent price drop in the current generation.

figment
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Re: Seeking Planning Advice (Gaming/Development: Spring 2011

Post by figment » Wed Dec 08, 2010 1:28 pm

Cerb wrote:There do seem to be some issues with the Marvell chip, but nothing major. Mostly screwing up quasi-software RAID functionality, and I think it doesn't support trim (Intel's SATA controller w/ MS' driver should, though). If you go normal with ATX, cards with mature chips will be available, later on.
I'll keep that in mind. I won't be running RAID, but I do want TRIM support. I figured that would be a given by time I purchase. I'll make sure not to make that assumption. I'd rather not have to go with a card-based solution, but if thats what it takes to get stability...
Cerb wrote:Remember that it's main advantage is the ability to exceed 300MB/s...which 99% of the people will not notice outside of benchmarks, even power users.
Exactly. I have done some things that max out my current read speed, but that's capped at something like 100MB/s right now. Even then, if I notice anything happening at 100MB/s, then its probably a long-running copy of some sort and I don't really care. The main advantage (in my opinion) of SSDs is the blazing access times. From what I can see, SATA-III isn't going to do much to improve SATA-II's access times. If there's nothing more to SATA-III than support for higher transfer rates, then I don't know that its going to be all that important to me.
Cerb wrote:Behringer's U-Control series might be just what you want. USB on the main PC, analog input from the other, and not expensive.
Yeah, that looks like that could work pretty well. I'm not really an audiophile, but I do listen to a decent amount of music and my hearing is still good enough to hear static on my headphones from the hard-drive and video-card fan. I don't need anything complex, and I was hoping that someone had enough experience with this to suggest something. This might do really well. Thanks for pointing it out.

cbutters
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Re: Seeking Planning Advice (Gaming/Development: Spring 2011

Post by cbutters » Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:03 am

Hi, I am in your same situation, I am buying what I can until sandy bridge is out.
Let me help you out a little here:

for your video card: http://slickdeals.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2505901
geforce 460 for $89
Not sure on how silent this model card is (if at all) but some aftermarket cooling solutions would fix that.

For your mem: http://slickdeals.net/forums/showthread ... &t=2501521
corsair 8gb ddr3 1333 $85

(I personally got a Mushkin DDR 1600 kit for $95.. deal on newegg last week. but deal is dead, but 1333 vs 1600 isn't that big a deal...)

I picked up a Corsair 750AX PSU for just a little over 100 on special, deal is dead now, but this is a great psu... see review here: http://www.anandtech.com/show/4011/cors ... 0plus-gold

your only option for quad hyper threaded as you specify is the 2600K, 2600 or 2600S. You may as well get the 2600K, the extra ~20 bucks is well worth the unlock (IMO) even just for playing around with it for a little bit and moving back to stock. As far as the S series, waste of money, you can probably undervolt a 2600 or a 2600K and get the same wattage levels as a 2600S very easily.

I plan on getting the Gigabyte P67A-UD4 board, the P67A-UD7 is probably the best sandy bridge board, but where I am not going to be using a dual video card setup, I don't need it and it is more money (~300 or more), the P67A-UD4 board will be more reasonably priced at around ~170

Definitely spring for the SSD, it is the biggest performance improvement you can do to your computer for daily use. If you had to buy now, get a Vertex2, or any other sandforce based controller for speed (corsair RealSSD is good as well) for reliability get a 80, 120 or 160GB Intel X25 series ssd (G2)......
Im not sure exactly when, but new intel and new sandforce SF2000 should be released early jan or at the lastest feb.... I will be waiting for these to release (unless they are super expensive), but at that point, prices should drop substantially at that point for everything else on the market.

as far as case, im using a corsair 600t, but for buttons inside a door, i would use a Antec P183...

So to sum it up in $:
Antec P183 $160
Corsair 750ax $150
8gb $85
geforce 460 $89
gigabyte p67a-ud4 $170
2600k $316
ssd of choice ~$250

that puts you at $1220 right on mark!


Also..
You will probably be fine with stock cooling since overclocking isn't that important to you, but right now I plan on a Thermalright Archon.... still up in the air, but we will see as Sandy Bridge draws nearer.

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